Photography & Integrity

I find it strange also the OP's thinly veiled attack on another Forum
member using DRP bandwidth for his personal crusade to rid 'his'
digital forum from the 'film dinosaurs'.
You'd think these guys would be secure enough in their own beliefs to
shrug off others opinions they disagree with rather than degenerate
Exactly, what is your problem? aren't you "secure enough in (your)their own beliefs"?
Are you the one that will decide what should be discussed and what shouldn't be?
the forum into a childish slanging match.
I'm happy to talk and see all sorts of photographic work flows here,
No, you are happy to talk only when it conforms your comfort zone, which is film.
I know its a digital site, but photography is a broad church and
...and yet you lurk here, even though you are a film die hard.
there is room for all.
As long as it strokes your notion about film superiority.
IBTL- it's only a matter of time before the mods notice....
Mark
What are hinting here? Did you discover, like Barry, the button?
 
Exactly, what is your problem? aren't you "secure enough in
(your)their own beliefs"?
Oh yes I am but I didn't start this shameful thread now did I ?
Are you the one that will decide what should be discussed and what
shouldn't be?
No personal attacks are allowed- Joe you know that this thread is your personal attack on Dave.
No, you are happy to talk only when it conforms your comfort zone.
Rubbish I just don't like your vitriolic name calling and thinly veiled attacks, my comfort zone has NOTHING to do with it.
It just bring the forum into disrepute and shame on you!!
What are hinting here? Did you discover, like Barry, the button?
Joe read the posting guidelines, this forum is not your platform for personal attacks:
read the guide lines

Shame on you starting a post just to bash another poster, deny it if you wish dress it up how you like.
We all know your agenda
--
http://www.photo-utopia.blogspot.com/
 
Doesn't Happen Joe.
Most wedding photographers use digital, I believe not only is it
easier to shoot digital but its better for weddings.
Well, this poster claims that it does happen on regular basis.
"As to myself....I just finished yet another wedding....and guess
what? They requested real B&W film to be used for some of the shots.
In the case, Delta 3200 and my rangefinder."
Yes clients DO ask for film sometimes but my reference to 'doesn't
happen' is that people don't force film down peoples throats due to
lack of integrity.
You talk from both ends of your mouth.

You were caught contradicting yourself. You wrote " Doesn't Happen Joe" and when it doesn't suit you you write "Yes clients DO ask for film sometimes"
That is what your original post is about isn't it? saying someone is
misleading their customers?
The question is very simple, will you tell your wedding clients that they better off with film since you don't use digital?
I suspect you would, you had no problem making false statement here.
How is it when people are asking for film that they lack integrity if
they give the customer what they want?
NO, they don't want film, you talk them into film with bogus claims.
Please tell me what you mean by your shameful thinly veiled attack?
You are talking about shameless? you have no contradicting yourself and making dishonest statements.
Makes me wonder who lacks integrity here...
The one that makes dishonest statements. You ended up with an egg on your face.
 
Would you consider overstating film merits, as opposed to digital, to
potential clients, a dishonest and un fair practice?
Should the photographer spell out the disadvantages with film usage?
If making images for a client, I would normally not even get into this question. They would normally want a finished product, and their aim, what they want to achieve would govern MY choice of tools.

If a client wants a particular tech or tool used (rare, for me at least) I would probably do what they want, (assuming i have it).

But I would allow myself to advise a client sometimes. For example, the client "wanted" film and they wanted the image say for advertising on both flat art and the web, and other uses overtime, I would probably steer them towards digital, for cost/process reasons over time, if for no other reason.

--

'Good composition is only the strongest way of seeing the subject. It cannot be taught because, like all creative effort, it is a matter of personal growth. In common with other artists the photographer wants his finished print to convey to others his own response to his subject. In the fulfillment of this aim, his greatest asset is the directness of the process he employs. But this advantage can only be retained if he simplifies his equipment and technique to the minimum necessary, and keeps his approach free from all formula, art-dogma, rules, and taboos. Only then can he be free to put his photographic sight to use in discovering and revealing the nature of the world he lives in.'
Edward Weston, Camera Craft Magazine, 1930.

'Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside a dog, it's too dark to read.' G. Marx
 
Would you consider overstating film merits, as opposed to digital, to
potential clients, a dishonest and un fair practice?
Should the photographer spell out the disadvantages with film usage?
If making images for a client, I would normally not even get into
this question. They would normally want a finished product, and their
aim, what they want to achieve would govern MY choice of tools.
I'm with you.
If a client wants a particular tech or tool used (rare, for me at
least) I would probably do what they want, (assuming i have it).

But I would allow myself to advise a client sometimes. For example,
the client "wanted" film and they wanted the image say for
advertising on both flat art and the web, and other uses overtime, I
would probably steer them towards digital, for cost/process reasons
over time, if for no other reason.
You do what an honest photographer should do. Give them the correct info, so they can make an educated decision.
--
'Good composition is only the strongest way of seeing the subject. It
cannot be taught because, like all creative effort, it is a matter of
personal growth. In common with other artists the photographer wants
his finished print to convey to others his own response to his
subject. In the fulfillment of this aim, his greatest asset is the
directness of the process he employs. But this advantage can only be
retained if he simplifies his equipment and technique to the minimum
necessary, and keeps his approach free from all formula, art-dogma,
rules, and taboos. Only then can he be free to put his photographic
sight to use in discovering and revealing the nature of the world he
lives in.'
Edward Weston, Camera Craft Magazine, 1930.

'Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside a dog, it's
too dark to read.' G. Marx
 
Is it O.K with you if I ignore you?

You lost credibility, you were caught making false statements. I don't want to engage in debate with someone that has no problem lying.
Exactly, what is your problem? aren't you "secure enough in
(your)their own beliefs"?
Oh yes I am but I didn't start this shameful thread now did I ?
Are you the one that will decide what should be discussed and what
shouldn't be?
No personal attacks are allowed- Joe you know that this thread is
your personal attack on Dave.
No, you are happy to talk only when it conforms your comfort zone.
Rubbish I just don't like your vitriolic name calling and thinly
veiled attacks, my comfort zone has NOTHING to do with it.
It just bring the forum into disrepute and shame on you!!
What are hinting here? Did you discover, like Barry, the button?
Joe read the posting guidelines, this forum is not your platform for
personal attacks:
read the guide lines

Shame on you starting a post just to bash another poster, deny it if
you wish dress it up how you like.
We all know your agenda
--
http://www.photo-utopia.blogspot.com/
 
I would definitely spell out the disadvantages of film. FOr a wedding, film is a heck of a lot more work. I only have people asking for B&W film on the odd occasion. I am happy to use it for them. But really, for most work, the digital files are more than most people will ever need.

I recently went with Niks Silver EFX Pro and find that other than people who really know what Tri-X or Delta 3200 looks like on print, more people would not tell the difference.

But if someone wants film for their wedding for all the color shots as well, I decline the job. It's OK to have a few rolls of Delta 3200 to work with....but I definitely wont work on hundreds of color scans.

Of course, I could always charge three times as much....but I doubt they want to spend $12,000 to $15,000 just because they want film.

Film has a place....I just don't think it's for weddings any more!
 
Is it O.K with you if I ignore you?
You lost credibility, you were caught making false statements. I
don't want to engage in debate with someone that has no problem lying.
No you have been caught saying I and other posters here 'lack integrity' and mislead our customers.
You are using a public forum to suggest that I am lying to my customers.
Do you retract?
Or will you face the consequences of your slander?
I have archived this thread and your accusations.

--
http://www.photo-utopia.blogspot.com/
 
Is it O.K with you if I ignore you?
You lost credibility, you were caught making false statements. I
don't want to engage in debate with someone that has no problem lying.
No you have been caught saying I and other posters here 'lack
integrity' and mislead our customers.
You are using a public forum to suggest that I am lying to my customers.
Do you retract?
Or will you face the consequences of your slander?
I have archived this thread and your accusations.

--
http://www.photo-utopia.blogspot.com/
You should archive the posts where things were simply made up. I have. Barry linked to it elsewhere. It was the post saying a print comparison was done and that we couldn't tell the difference between film and digital.

No such comparison was ever done here, nor was it even suggested. However, instead of retracting the statement, this individual made personal attacks against me instead.

By the way, the couple I photographed yesterday where I did put a few rolls of Delta thru the rangefinder had looked my up and found some threads on DPReview. Let's just say that they didn't think much of this individual and his crusade against those people who like both film and digital for their different strengths.

I think Joe forgets that people have google, and that his personal attacks won't help his business any if people look him up. My clients learned about him pretty quick and we had a good chuckle at people like that.

I'm making the decision to avoid threads where DP O'neill, Eaton, or Joe post. I'm tired have being baited into correcting misinformed or simply false information. My time is better spent in the field.

After this season, I'm retiring from the wedding portion of my business and simply doing portrait work and furthering the sale of my landscape prints. I want my weekends back and this is the perfect way to do it. I figured I'll pull the plug before I'm 40.
 
I would definitely spell out the disadvantages of film. FOr a
wedding, film is a heck of a lot more work. I only have people
asking for B&W film on the odd occasion. I am happy to use it for
them. But really, for most work, the digital files are more than
most people will ever need.

I recently went with Niks Silver EFX Pro and find that other than
people who really know what Tri-X or Delta 3200 looks like on print,
more people would not tell the difference.

But if someone wants film for their wedding for all the color shots
as well, I decline the job. It's OK to have a few rolls of Delta
3200 to work with....but I definitely wont work on hundreds of color
scans.

Of course, I could always charge three times as much....but I doubt
they want to spend $12,000 to $15,000 just because they want film.
Does this include the disposable cameras?
Should you use film, you would charge $12,000 to $15,000 really???
That means that without film you charge $11,500 to $14,500

No wonder you were called a wonder twin. You must be one of the most expensive photographers in North America. I guess people like disposable cameras and your style.
Film has a place....I just don't think it's for weddings any more!
 
it's the name-calling and insults that are beneath someone with his so-called pedigree. And your original post...what on earth did you expect to get out of posting something as inane as this other than baiting others? You come across as holier-than-thou, but your history shows you certainly enjoy throwing insults with the others. And you are supposed to be a pro? Don't you think things like this are awfully silly?
--
charlesh
 
I would definitely spell out the disadvantages of film. FOr a
wedding, film is a heck of a lot more work. I only have people
asking for B&W film on the odd occasion. I am happy to use it for
them. But really, for most work, the digital files are more than
most people will ever need.

I recently went with Niks Silver EFX Pro and find that other than
people who really know what Tri-X or Delta 3200 looks like on print,
more people would not tell the difference.

But if someone wants film for their wedding for all the color shots
as well, I decline the job. It's OK to have a few rolls of Delta
3200 to work with....but I definitely wont work on hundreds of color
scans.

Of course, I could always charge three times as much....but I doubt
they want to spend $12,000 to $15,000 just because they want film.
Does this include the disposable cameras?
Should you use film, you would charge $12,000 to $15,000 really???
That means that without film you charge $11,500 to $14,500
No wonder you were called a wonder twin. You must be one of the most
expensive photographers in North America. I guess people like
disposable cameras and your style.
Film has a place....I just don't think it's for weddings any more!
I guess math isn't your strong point. I said I would charge tree times as much for full film. 1/3 of $12,000 is $4000 for regular pricing for me.

I've archived this post of yours just showing that even when someone makes a civil post towards you, you attempt to attack them in response.

You must be a lonely person in the real world to have to flex your web muscles in the web world.

How sad for you....and anyone who googles you for business.
 
it's the name-calling and insults that are beneath someone with his
so-called pedigree. And your original post...what on earth did you
expect to get out of posting something as inane as this other than
baiting others? You come across as holier-than-thou, but your history
shows you certainly enjoy throwing insults with the others. And you
are supposed to be a pro? Don't you think things like this are
awfully silly?
--
charlesh
Charlesh, take a deep breath and a tablet.
Move on to another thread, ignore this one, there are quite a few. By.
 
Dave actually responds in a calm, agreeable fashion and you STILL throw the insults! By the way, have you ever fixed the grammatical and capitalization errors on your website? You know the old saying about glass houses...
--
charlesh
 
I think Joe forgets that people have google, and that his personal
attacks won't help his business any if people look him up. My
clients learned about him pretty quick and we had a good chuckle at
people like that.
I doubt it he obviously post here in the long gaps between clients.

What I'm finding astonishing is that he is using this forum as his own vehicle to attack people he believes are pushing film onto customers. Trouble is he's fighting shadows I don't know anyone who does that, most (including myself) give the client what they need. Pushing film weddings? I haven't done one since I got my D60! I have one client who asks for film 6x7 Trans and I've even advised digital to him when he needed shots for a brochure (easier for me is that dishonest)?

This thread is a weak attack mainly on you, and Joe can't see that his 'lack of integrity' jibes are going to get him in trouble.

He has accused me of lying to my clients, lets see if he retracts- or faces the consequences of his accusations.
Mark
--
http://www.photo-utopia.blogspot.com/
 
I don't mind his attacks. It makes him look silly. I give my clients what they....always have. The fact that I can pull the plug on this part of my business without worrying about finances is proof simple.

Let him do what he wants. He's obviously on a crusade and doesn't have issues with insulting, lying or slandering people in the process. I've decided to add his name to my personal ignore button.

I've already had a few emails from people reading this thread....and they aren't coming out in support for Joe.

Let's all ignore this troll....he is simply beneath us.
 
I would definitely spell out the disadvantages of film. FOr a
wedding, film is a heck of a lot more work. I only have people
asking for B&W film on the odd occasion. I am happy to use it for
them. But really, for most work, the digital files are more than
most people will ever need.

I recently went with Niks Silver EFX Pro and find that other than
people who really know what Tri-X or Delta 3200 looks like on print,
more people would not tell the difference.

But if someone wants film for their wedding for all the color shots
as well, I decline the job. It's OK to have a few rolls of Delta
3200 to work with....but I definitely wont work on hundreds of color
scans.

Of course, I could always charge three times as much....but I doubt
they want to spend $12,000 to $15,000 just because they want film.
Does this include the disposable cameras?
Should you use film, you would charge $12,000 to $15,000 really???
That means that without film you charge $11,500 to $14,500
No wonder you were called a wonder twin. You must be one of the most
expensive photographers in North America. I guess people like
disposable cameras and your style.
Film has a place....I just don't think it's for weddings any more!
I guess math isn't your strong point. I said I would charge tree
times as much for full film. 1/3 of $12,000 is $4000 for regular
Is the charge for film an additional $8000-$10,000 ????????????
What a pile of bull cr@@p
pricing for me.
Dave, What is your strong side? spreading bull.......

Your clients must have great affection for disposable cameras if they are willing to pay you $4000-$5000 for your master pieces.

Why don't you raise the prices? You claim that you have more work then you can handle.
I've archived this post of yours just showing that even when someone
makes a civil post towards you, you attempt to attack them in
response.

You must be a lonely person in the real world to have to flex your
web muscles in the web world.

How sad for you....and anyone who googles you for business.
 
I don't mind his attacks. It makes him look silly. I give my
clients what they....always have. The fact that I can pull the plug
on this part of my business without worrying about finances is proof
simple.

Let him do what he wants. He's obviously on a crusade and doesn't
have issues with insulting, lying or slandering people in the
process. I've decided to add his name to my personal ignore button.

I've already had a few emails from people reading this thread....and
they aren't coming out in support for Joe.

Let's all ignore this troll....he is simply beneath us.
That would be the big thing to do of course, and others must have notice his personal crusade and his attempts to suggest we are liars both to our clients and here.

My initial reaction has been one of how dare he use a public forum to claim we 'lack integrity' but after reading his post possibly we should pity him.

The fact that some old dinosaurs still like film, gets under his skin- and he attacks them for that in a very vitriolic manner and accusations of lying- pityful

--
http://www.photo-utopia.blogspot.com/
 
Dave actually responds in a calm, agreeable fashion and you STILL
throw the insults! By the way, have you ever fixed the grammatical
and capitalization errors on your website? You know the old saying
about glass houses...
--
charlesh
Is this the very best that you can come up with?
My site is just fine.
I see you can't resist reading my thread.

You are like the those that protest porno and keep peeking at it, at every opportunity.

Again, if this thread upsets you, move on. I don't want it to affect your blood pressure.
Have a nice day.
 

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