father called a "pervert" for photographing own children in park

I believe it's too much too compare the Western society, especially UK, with the Soviet Union. You really can't understand the difference unless you lived it. I know, as my country has "benefited" of the Soviet influence for a long and dark half of a century (and we were an independent East-European country, I can't start to imagine how the actual Soviet states were!). Believe me, communism, socialism or whatever you want to call it is one of the most atrocious regimes that can be imposed on human beings.

Granted, paranoia is raising in some old democracies, it's a very bad (and somewhat surprising) sign, but they have way to go...

Dan

really looks like you WANT TO misunderstand me.

mirel said:

mirel wrote:
I don't think that Germany is a good example for a sane world , with
no paranoia and fear.

Click to expand...

Where did I say Germany is an example for a sane world?? All I said is we are not THAT crazy yet!

mirel said:

Germany had the world record for a nightmare tyranny, crime and
genocide only 70 years ago, instigator of two WW (WWI 40 millions
victims, WWII 70 millions mostly civilians). So please don't speak
about "oil wars" and don't give Germany as an example of sanity.

Click to expand...

Almost 20 years of my life I spent in front of teachers so I don´t think I need a lesson in history. I´m very well aware of the past but here we are talking about the UK (and Germany) of TODAY. Can´t imagine a father would have been accused of being a pervert when taking pictures of his kids in the UK of 70 years ago.
Or people seeing photographers as potential terrorists all the time.

Again, well aware of the past, but my reply was exclusively about the presence.

mirel said:

Fascism and xenophobia still exist even today in the united Germany.

Click to expand...

You are absolutely right and I never said they wouldn´t. I am particularly - the Queen would say "not amused" - about what I see in this respect in the Eastern parts of this country. And about "united" Germany: Well, maybe on the map but not yet in the heads!

But that subject was not covered in my reply at all. I am far from saying Germany is an example of sanity. But certain recent "insanities" still show up less over here.

mirel said:

However England starting from 1215 Magna Carta is the most liberal
country from Europe and US is a symbol of religious, entreprise,
speech and press freedom.

Click to expand...

Well, things can change, you know. I am not so sure if I would call the the UK of today the most liberal country in Europe and I guess a lot of people will agree on this. Can´t see anything more liberal on the island than over here, it´s more the opposite, I think.
And about symbols, well, the same story, I guess, all subject to change.

But change can be good. Like Germany before 1945 and after, that´s two completely different stories. Thanks God!

René

PS.: Sorry to read in the news that all Hezbollah had to offer in this prisoner swap were two coffins!

René Schuster said:

Always the same stupid generalization: Providing a link to a news
article published about an incident either in the US or the UK and
then saying "the WORLD has gone crazy"!
Just the US and the UK is not "the world"! (

Click to expand...

I would certainly agree - perhaps that fact that this is an English-language camera site, populated predominantly with English speakers, helps to influence that?

Most people on this site ( > 90%) probably cannot read German, so it is difficult for us to link to or read German sites. Same for Chinese, Russian, Portuguese, etc.

We could probably say "in the English-speaking world for which we have good information", but that IS a bit of a mouthful...and like most countries, we do tend to be a bit geo-centric.

--
Robert
Olympus E-3 & E-500, 7-14mm, 14-54mm, 40-150mm, 30mm
Olympus 1030SW P&S
Gandolfi 'Universal' Large Format, 127mm Schneider
Yashica Lynx-1000

I see this is running in Pro forum also.

Yes, you are right and I was wrong to bring the past. I'm sorry.

It is true that I saw in my visits in Germany a new face and I had a democratic feeling but I felt also the shadow of the past .

The deal was Hezbollah was awkward and with a bad aftertaste; it will bring new hostages in the future. But who makes deals with the devil loose and receive caskets.
Mephistopheles :

Ere long thou wilt proceed with pleasure,
To raise the casket with its treasure;
I took a peep, therein are stored,
Of lion - dollars a rich hoard.

--
Mirel

'As photographs give people an imaginary possession of a past that is unreal, they also help people to take possession of space in which they are insecure. '
Susan Sontag

Hi, Dan

I can remmeber visiting one of those Eastern European Communist states way back in 1969 and being asked to report to the police station once a week and tell them where I was intending to travel. I also recall the police being very polite and even helping to recover a stolen item. From what I recall, normal people got on with their everyday lives much as we did in the West. The exception being if they wished to show any kind of dissent or deviation from what was normal. And this is where the UK is heading today - if you don't conform to what the government feels is 'harmless' then you're going to be in trouble.

--
John.
Please visit me at:
http://www.pbase.com/johnfr/backtothebridge
http://www.pbase.com/johnfr/digital_dartmoor

Right now for the most part events like these end when the authorities find out the photography in public is legal. The problem I see is what is probably coming - a lot of proposed legislation to limit photography rights. Sure most of it won't pass and most of what does pass will eventually be found to be unenforceable or at least in the US unconstitutional, but the time to get there will be painful.

I would not be surprised to find out one or two of the Moms in this incident have already called their member of Parliament to complain about the lack of laws to "protect" children. Some politician will see this as a great soapbox to stand on.

We need to be watchful.

René Schuster said:

tko said:

The world has gone crazy.

Click to expand...

René Schuster said:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1035315/Father-branded-pervert--photographing-children-public-park.html

Click to expand...

Always the same stupid generalization: Providing a link to a news
article published about an incident either in the US or the UK and
then saying "the WORLD has gone crazy"!
Just the US and the UK is not "the world"! (Unless in English this
word is used differently; I remember US GIs talking about "going back
to the world" when their military service in Germany was over).

Click to expand...

Some of "us" here in the USA do use a phrase, "going back to the real world" - or "getting back to the real world."

It means; getting back to our usual routine and surroundings.

René Schuster said:

There are probably a few crazy things going on in Germany, too, but I
can assure you we are not THAT crazy yet!
This overall atmosphere of fear and paranoia of the participants of
the oil wars didn´t really make it over here, thanks God! At least
not to such a crazy extent, seeing photographers -if not as
terrorists or perverts- but at least as some kind of threat.

René

Click to expand...

--
People who claim to be open minded never see it my way.

Hi, John

I didn't say I like the trend in the Western countries regarding the personal liberties. I'm - in a sense - disappointed when reading here or elsewhere about things like terrorism-related paranoia or excessive 'political correctness'; -- established democracies should know better than trading civil rights for an arguable sense of security. Nevertheless, this may be only a phase, exacerbated by the current state of the world affairs or by politicians' opportunism. Eastern-European communism, on the other hand, was a really oppressive, mentality-perverting, social experiment. For instance, those days you had to choose your friends very carefully, as you never knew whether they would report your beliefs to the authorities or not. Of course, it wasn't an 100% Orwellian universe, but the implications of the 'ideology' (i.e. the official set of beliefs) on the society were like deep wounds that need a long time to heal.

Nevertheless, reactions like yours are always welcome as 'alarm signals', and - in fact - are a sign there is still hope

Dan

john farrar said:

Hi, Dan
I can remmeber visiting one of those Eastern European Communist
states way back in 1969 and being asked to report to the police
station once a week and tell them where I was intending to travel. I
also recall the police being very polite and even helping to recover
a stolen item. From what I recall, normal people got on with their
everyday lives much as we did in the West. The exception being if
they wished to show any kind of dissent or deviation from what was
normal. And this is where the UK is heading today - if you don't
conform to what the government feels is 'harmless' then you're going
to be in trouble.

--
John.
Please visit me at:
http://www.pbase.com/johnfr/backtothebridge
http://www.pbase.com/johnfr/digital_dartmoor

Click to expand...

Those women need a man to take care of them... ;-)
--



What I shoot with - in Profile.
Arbib

René Schuster said:

...
There are probably a few crazy things going on in Germany, too, but I
can assure you we are not THAT crazy yet!
This overall atmosphere of fear and paranoia of the participants of
the oil wars didn´t really make it over here, thanks God! At least
not to such a crazy extent, seeing photographers -if not as
terrorists or perverts- but at least as some kind of threat.

René

Click to expand...

Maybe you just haven't been paying attention lately, there's crazyness brewing on this side of the "pond" as well.

I've been called pervert more than once for just carrying a camera, and asked by several "amateur police" to stop taking pictures where it's completely harmless and perfectly legal to do so.

As to paranoia, there's legislation being passed as we speak that is in the same vein as the american Homeland Security stuff, allowing bugging, monitoring of email traffic etc without much protection for private citizens. Restrictions of other rights, including photography, are sure to follow. There are politicians here that have been blogging about banning photography on public beaches as well as other public places, and forbidding photography of children under a certain age - welcome to the brave new world, it's looking great.

• Anders @ http://www.aobild.com *

Michael_J said:

Some of "us" here in the USA do use a phrase, "going back to the
real world" - or "getting back to the real world."
It means; getting back to our usual routine and surroundings.

Click to expand...

it could have been the "real world", as you say, not absolutely sure because this was back in 73/74 (when you still could drink for 3 days and were only sick the following day; today you drink one day and feel sick for 3 days).

And No, I have no problems with alcohol, lol! (some people, when saying this, usually add two more words here: "Just without").

René

"those are my kids you dumb c...."

FretNoMore said:

Maybe you just haven't been paying attention lately, there's
crazyness brewing on this side of the "pond" as well.

Click to expand...

I didn´t miss these news. Had to check your profile to see what I thought when reading your reply, you live in Sweden. Couldn´t really believe it when I heard about this Swedish law, maybe 3 or 4 weeks ago, about monitoring e-mail traffic and all this, just as they like!

And I didn´t say it is something only on the other side of the pond, UK is considered to be on our side, isn´t it?!

FretNoMore said:

I've been called pervert more than once for just carrying a camera,
and asked by several "amateur police" to stop taking pictures where
it's completely harmless and perfectly legal to do so.

Click to expand...

Never happened to me here in Germany, well, so far. On the other hand I´m not really into street photography or shooting people on a beach or something like this. The only time I was (politely) asked to please stop shooting was last summer near a bank in Luxembourg city; two security guards, after showing me their ID cards, told me that German tax officers about twice a week would try to get some shots there of German clients of this bank (bringing their money to Luxembourg to avoid paying tax in Germany), so I might scare away customers when they see me with a camera.

FretNoMore said:

As to paranoia, there's legislation being passed as we speak that is
in the same vein as the american Homeland Security stuff, allowing
bugging, monitoring of email traffic etc without much protection for
private citizens. Restrictions of other rights, including
photography, are sure to follow. There are politicians here that have
been blogging about banning photography on public beaches as well as
other public places, and forbidding photography of children under a
certain age - welcome to the brave new world, it's looking great.

Click to expand...

We have this type of politicians here in Germany, too, but -Gottseidank- so far they have not been very successful with their crazy ideas! But if not our German politicians, who knows what our Brussels EC politicians might come up with one day?! I hope Sweden is not just an example and the others follow!

René

The problem with giving "powers" to the authorities (whoever they are?) is that they expand. A couple of years ago in the UK we passed a Regulation of Investigory Powers Act (RIP) that was meant to "combat terrorism" in that a "senior" official could authorise surveillance of suspects. In recent cases, councils have used it to monitor a family suspected of giving a false address to get their children into a local school (they weren't) and to check on people suspected of letting their dog foul a pavement.

That's the main problem we have - jumped-up jobsworths enjoying whatever powers they think they have. Our Plastic Plods are a prime example - watch this clip.
http://www.boingboing.net/2008/06/27/pretend-cops-bully-v.html

Because I'm an American, I don't really know what it is like in other countries.

However, I have to admit that due to my blissful ignorance, whenever I hear a German saying that his contry is not as bad as his neighboring countries I get a little worry.

I agree that we Americans are fatter, lazier, stupidier than anyone else but as Americans we dont' care.

Our main crisis now is that Budweiser is no longer an American company, what shall we do? This is a national crisis. I think that once we resolve this, we can turn our attention of women's breast and the war in Iraq. I know that our President has sent some soldier over to this Iraq country somewhere in the Middle East to do something.
--

Praying for Pro level 8mp FF and 10mp 1.6X Canon. Delusion that Canon and Oly will make a 200-400 f4

Assuming this was meant as a reply to the original story - I HOPE!

Ryan Stewart said:

"those are my kids you dumb c...."

Click to expand...

--
People who claim to be open minded never see it my way.

The people as myself, that spent 22 years in a prison called (wrongly) " a socialist country" (Romania) are very amused when somebody from areal free country when he has some minor problems of limit of minor liberties limitations cry that he is loosing his freedom.

I may say that in my Eastern Romanian period, under Ceaushescu tyranny, one as you, John Farrar, that complains in a foreign forum about his country will have this future:
-you will be denounced byyour own friend

-your best friends and family will deny you in apublic meeting as a traitor, an ennemy of people and you will be throw out from the syndicate and party
-you will be throw out from your job/school/ university

-the penalty for denigration of your motherland is at least 10 years of political prison; first two years with no visits. You will be in cell of 1.5x2m with a harsh light 24hours a day. Isolated. You will receive no books all this period. You may read only if you are an exemplary inmate and this after one year and only from the prison library. No paper and pen. No camera haha and of course. You will be beaten by guards and by common prisoners as a usual routine. You will be beaten because a thief or a murderer is usualy a patriot and you spoke against the Motherland. Or even worse.

• after the prison you will be sent in a remote place of the country...two hours to the next railway station...where you will sustain yourself as a simple worker, even if you were an engineer or doctor. No more photography, you imperialist spy...

Now you understand what's freedom, John Farrar? And look through the window, maybe the Security (secret service KGB) black car is there...

And if you think that this is a story, I know people that were in this situation. Some survived, some no.
Enjoy your country, it's a free country!

dccdp said:

I didn't say I like the trend in the Western countries regarding the
personal liberties. I'm - in a sense - disappointed when reading here
or elsewhere about things like terrorism-related paranoia or
excessive 'political correctness'; -- established democracies should
know better than trading civil rights for an arguable sense of
security. Nevertheless, this may be only a phase, exacerbated by the
current state of the world affairs or by politicians' opportunism.
Eastern-European communism, on the other hand, was a really
oppressive, mentality-perverting, social experiment. For instance,
those days you had to choose your friends very carefully, as you
never knew whether they would report your beliefs to the authorities
or not. Of course, it wasn't an 100% Orwellian universe, but the
implications of the 'ideology' (i.e. the official set of beliefs) on
the society were like deep wounds that need a long time to heal.

Nevertheless, reactions like yours are always welcome as 'alarm
signals', and - in fact - are a sign there is still hope

Dan

john farrar said:

Hi, Dan
I can remmeber visiting one of those Eastern European Communist
states way back in 1969 and being asked to report to the police
station once a week and tell them where I was intending to travel. I
also recall the police being very polite and even helping to recover
a stolen item. From what I recall, normal people got on with their
everyday lives much as we did in the West. The exception being if
they wished to show any kind of dissent or deviation from what was
normal. And this is where the UK is heading today - if you don't
conform to what the government feels is 'harmless' then you're going
to be in trouble.

--
John.
Please visit me at:
http://www.pbase.com/johnfr/backtothebridge
http://www.pbase.com/johnfr/digital_dartmoor

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

--
Mirel

'As photographs give people an imaginary possession of a past that is unreal, they also help people to take possession of space in which they are insecure. '
Susan Sontag

Hope I don't take this thread too off-topic, but Mirel, your view is a bit extreme. Indeed, speaking against the official regime was forbidden, as I said before. However, the common people (the large majority) were decent ones, and the family and friends would have never 'publicly denounce' the 'traitor'!

Please remember that we were all victims of the regime, not part of it. Nobody actually believed the 'official line', and everybody looked forward to the days it would all be over. Everybody was outraged with the regime, and, at home or with close friends, everybody talked about how wrong the things were.

There were various degrees of punishment for the 'incorrect thinking', as isolation at the workplace (no promotion, sir!), exclusion from the Communist Party (membership was required to get higher jobs), etc. Yes, there were cases when the punishment was prison, but they were rare. Proof: how many actual formerly imprisoned 'dissidents' have you met in the post-communist Romania?

Coming to the topic, John has a point, though. The trend in some Western countries is not to be ignored. Fear of terrorists, legislation that allows 'sniffing' the electronic communication, excessive surveillance in major cities are things that may transform (if allowed to develop) in seeds for a very close and authoritarian society.

Dan

Obviously it was a very repressive regime and clearly you felt repressed, as probably would anyone with an enquiring mind and a personality profile which does not easily accept being told what to do. Anything not listed as OK being considered bad or wrong, just as in a tribal society, and everyone grassing-up everyone else just as quickly as they can in order to escape similar 'reporting' to the police.

Yet there are other forms of repression here in the 'free' world like not having a job and maybe never having one, like being forced - through no fault of your own - to live in crime-ridden housing estates where anyone who does the right thing like getting a job or supporting their families by legitimate means is seen as being 'different' or weak, and as a result often forced to move from their homes; and if they dare to grass to the police then they may even end up dead or have their wives or children targeted. The major difference being that Capitalist repressesion is more a lower profile business.

We may not in the UK have the KGB in black cars and other overtly sinister apparatus in plain view, but we are being watched and, when we are perceived as potentially threatening the state, acted against. (The death of Dr. Kelly before the 2nd Iraq war over the 'sexed-up dossier' affair. The shooting of Jena Charles De Menezes at the time of the London Underground and Bus Bombings. Arbitrary arrests if you are Black or Muslim and fit a certain terrorist-prone profile.)

Paranoia is rife in the USA and UK, some would say with good cause, and it often affects photographers. Liberties that we once took for granted are no longer there and it would seem you can only use the legal system if you can afford to pay for it and meet any claims against you should you fail to win your case. What lawyer would be interested in a No-win - No-Fee case on such an unlevel political playing field?

--
John.
Please visit me at:
http://www.pbase.com/johnfr/backtothebridge
http://www.pbase.com/johnfr/digital_dartmoor