DSLR uprade ?

Guy and Tom, thank you very much for your posts. Very informative and
useful.
No problem - I think we like helping and parading such knowledge that we have - just don't look at me at least as an utter expert - I just pass on my hard experience earned by spending my own money - sensibly or otherwise.
So it seems to me like lenses are really the deciding factor when
purchasing a dslr.
Yes better lenses get better results - I am not saying that you should not buy a cheaper basic dslr with kit lens but just don't expect to get instant and total perfection. The images you need to get can be achieved with the kit lens but you will need higher ISO (and some grain) to compensate. However the dslr's with larger sensors can "stand" the higher ISO settings without plunging into the same grain levels of the small sensored cameras. Therefore you will probably meet your obectives with any reputable dslr kit-lensed camera (they are all "reputable" these days).

With the better (faster) lenses you can reach your objectives on lower ISO settings and of course you have the acceptable higher ISO ranges up your sleeve until the lens/ISO ratio gets so good that you can get acceptable imaging without flash in "almost dark" with (say) a full sized sensor camera such as the Canon 5D, a f1.2 lens and 1600 ISO. Even then there is some grain - but what do we expect - miracles? (Smile)
And from what you guys are saying, would it be correct to say that
faster lenses with lower F stops are what I am looking for,
especially when it comes to low light settings? (sorry for newbie
questions, but I'm very new to slrs and lens issues)
Yes is the answer but it depends on whether you are after the ultimate or whether something less will satisfy your need. As a self-confessed "newbie" you will probably be amazed at how well a kit lensed dslr will perform. I think that what we are saying is that if you are particular and want to pursue your objective to the nth degree then you will inevitably progress to the largest sensor and the fastest lens that you can afford. Regrettably this rules out the Oly combination and it is only recently that Nikon moved to a "full-size" sensor.

However don't take these hypotheticals to literally. If you buy good lenses the Oly is as strong a performer as any and there are only a relatively few camera users outside of the professional sphere obsessive enough to dig deep enough in their wallets to get the highest level gear - and that includes Canon and Nikon users.

Therefore I think that you could safely put your toe in the water with the camera brand that suited you and a kit lens and find out whether this was enough to ring your bells. Bear in mind that if you think you are the type to catch the bug badly enough to check out the cost of the more expensive bodies and lenses and see if this gives you heart failure. However most people manage quite well with basic dslr kit and take wonderful images with it.

It would seem foolish to go off and spend a truckload of hard-earned and then find that it was too sophisticated for your requirements - the most expensive gear needs more thought to use and does not automatically convert you from "newbie" to "pro".
Basically I want a camera / lens system with a good multi-purpose
lens and an ultra-wide one too if possible. And from the advice given
here, I guess I want them to be as fast as possible.
We were giving advice on the gear best suited to accommodate your wishes but it does sound that you would be overjoyed with the improvement in imaging given by a standard body and kit lens only (relatively cheaply).

For example prime (fixed focal length) lenses have the edge on most zoom lenses - that means to cover a range you have to have a few - and even a few good quality fast lenses is a lot of hay to burn.
Does Olympus have some lenses like this?
Yep I am sure of it but there are others better able to answer this particular query.
I saw a Tamron 18-300 on the Canon 450D in the local shop and was
quite impressed by the versatility of it. Though I'm not sure what
speed it was.
There are some quite nice 3rd party lenses about and they are generally cheaper than the oem equivalents.

--
Tom Caldwell
 
Guy and Tom, thank you very much for your posts. Very informative and
useful.

So it seems to me like lenses are really the deciding factor when
purchasing a dslr.
And from what you guys are saying, would it be correct to say that
faster lenses with lower F stops are what I am looking for,
especially when it comes to low light settings? (sorry for newbie
questions, but I'm very new to slrs and lens issues)
A large degree of success may be due to the ability of the camera body to handle higher ISO, look to the largest sensors for this. Next in line is to use the more expensive (really more expensive) lenses with larger maximum apertures.

But a lot depends on how much time you will take low light shots. If 99% of the time you are taking normal daylight family and travel shots and occasional arty stuff, then just about any camera body with kit lenses will do the job and can still be used in low light with care and/or with tripod.
Basically I want a camera / lens system with a good multi-purpose
lens and an ultra-wide one too if possible. And from the advice given
here, I guess I want them to be as fast as possible.
Does Olympus have some lenses like this?
I was not that impressed by the range of the Kit lens (14-55 I think)
that comes with the E-420, but I assume that there are much better
ones available.
the Oly kit lenses are.....

14-42mm limited range, small apertures, good optical performance, light weight and very small.
40-150mm small apertures, good optical performance, light weight and very small.

Better is the 14-54mm lens that's been around for a while, larger apertures, good close focus, weather sealed.

Better again is the more expensive 12-60mm lens but it does suffer from some noticeable barrel distortion at the wide end. OK for landscapes but city scenes need correcting bendy buildings later in edit. Optical quality better than the 14-54mm lens.

For extra wide is the 11-22mm an excellent lens due to its limited 2x zoom ratio.

For super duper wide is the 7-14mm lens but it is very expensive, very large and very heavy. Totally superb results, the very best in the industry, sharp from corner to corner, a rare beast indeed in super wide angle. The telecentric design specification of the Olympus 4/3 system and the small sensor size compared to mount opening size pays off when it comes to wide and super wide angles lenses.

Soon there will be a more reasonably priced 9-18mm lens but not seen yet by anyone so no idea of quality. Usually Olympus delivers OK on quality, they don't really produce dud lenses like some other makers do.

Here's more about all the lenses at...
http://www.olympus-esystem.com/dea/products/lens/index.html

Sigma also make some lenses to fit 4/3 cameras. In fact Sigma most likely make some of the 4/3 lenses, but they are better working versions than the normal Sigma lenses. Maybe selected for purity at birth.
I saw a Tamron 18-300 on the Canon 450D in the local shop and was
quite impressed by the versatility of it. Though I'm not sure what
speed it was.
The all-in-one super zoom lenses tend to have worse quality and smaller apertures particularly at the long tele end. They are a compromise in quality for travellers and people who don't like changing lenses. They are like having a super zoom pocket camera, work well in good light but get a bit painful to use in low light.

Changing lenses is another issue, that's when most dust can enter the camera. At least Olympus has always had a sensor dust buster that works, the rest have none or are slowly working up to getting some attempt at making dust busters work. Believe me, dust is a serious and painful issue in photography, and I can happily report that my E-300 has never shown any dust or needed any extra cleaning
Guy, you said you use the 11-22mm Oly lens a lot. Do you have a link
to any online images taken with that lens? If so, I'd love to see
them :)
Mine vary from good to tragic, but here's a better selection from many very happy users....
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=28388277

I travelled through Vietnam and Thailand and took about 4,500 shots with the 11-22mm but there's no photo show on the internet apart from a scattered few at Photobucket and they are a mix of R4, R5 and E-300.

http://s100.photobucket.com/albums/m36/photoguy340/vietnam/ and the ones with P at the start of the filename are E-300 and (mostly) 11-22.

Just about any DSLR with a kit lens will deliver better results than a pocket camera. But if you only ever print your shots to postcard size then you will never see a significant difference compared to your pocket camera shots.

The DSLR will enable better quality for larger prints and will enable low light photography better if you have the right lenses.

Regards............. Guy
 
6 - 10 MP's, good ISO up to 400, Jpeg+RAW, live view/tilt screen
would be FAB, an affordable wide angle lens, zoom up to 150. I'd be a
happy bunny with that : )
I think you are out of luck if you really need a tilt screen. I think the Oly E-3 is the only one and it not a very good one according the review and it may be getting out of our affordable range. Some of the makers have taken a different approach with a really high quality LCD with a wide viewing angle, like Sony and Nikon. They will allow you to shoot overhead or down on the ground with live view without the need to tilt.

Your other specs are not too critical. They will all do that, although affordable is in the eye of the beholder. What you save on a camera body may help with a lens though. And there is always a third party maker. Some of those are very good.

Canon, Nikon, and Pentax have tons of legacy lenses that can be used on their bodies. Sony can use Minolta lenses. The Nikon D40/D60 requires a newer lens with built in motor to autofocus. But all their lenses can be focused manually and the meter operates. The D60 has a nice little software rangefinder for manual focus. Oly has no legacy lenses that will operate directly on their cameras without using an adaptor and they are only manual focus. Focus becomes difficult the smaller image in the viewfinder. The adaptor cancels the automatic aperture so that you open the aperture all the way, take your light meter reading, set the camera and change the aperture of the lens before taking the picture. You don't have this problem with Nikon and I would assume Canon and Pentax. If you want to put almost anything on a camera body get a Canon. Because the lens mount to focal plane distance is shorter than any other makers, you can get an adaptor to mount just about any lens made for another camera.

Just some things to think about.
 
Hi, there are a couple of tilt screens out there I've looked at. The Sony A300 ( don't need the extra pixels of the 350 ) has a tilt screen which looks useful. And the Panasonic L10 has a screen that tilts and some ! Both 10 MP.

The L10 comes with a good stabalised kit lens but then subsequent lens' wont be stabilised ! Unless you use the 14-15 f.2.8 or the the even more expensive 14-150 both in the region of 600-900 £'s I think. Olympus lens' / 4/3rds lens' can also be used, again no stabilisation. Not a problem at the short end I think.
The Sony comes with a useful 18-70 kit lens. Not as good a lens as the Leica ?

The L10 I would have to trust buying over the internet, the Sony I can get a few miles away, both the same price. Choice ?

TALLY
 
A200 is probably the best value overall in a DSLR now, and worth a look. $499.00 with a decent 18-70 kit lens right now. A steal for the performance. ISO 800 shots are very clean and I routinely use up to 1600 without hesitation.

I have the whole lineup, even the A700 and I find myself reaching for the easy to use, fast focusing, high image quality A200.

But that's just me :)
--
http://www.AlphaMountWorld.com
http://www.CarlGarrardPhotography.com

Get out there and paint some light.
 
Thanks Tom and Guy again for such great responses. Really helped me out.

Based on the advice given here, and my other research, I'm pretty sure I'm going to go with the olympus e-520.

It's a big bigger than the 420, but the 420 does not seem to have Image Stabilization, which I think I would find to be a useful feature when shooting in low light. The 520 is not THAT much bigger anyway. They are both big when you put a lens on it.

I also went down and checked out some of the lenses... wow. they can get really pricey. That 7-14mm that Guy mentioned was almost 200 000yen! (US$2000).

Not sure what to do about lenses at this point. I might just go with the kit lenses as they will be the cheapest, and most people seem to think they are pretty decent.

As I said before, I'm more interested in taking wide-angle shots, so I think I might wait for the 9-18mm to come out later this year and add it to my kit then, rather than going for a 11-22mm.

In fact, I'm thinking about just getting the 14-42mm kit lens and skipping the 2nd kit 40-150mm lens altogether, and then if I feel the need for telephoto later, maybe getting the 70-300mm which will offer a much bigger range.

My reasoning is that the 40-150 that comes with the kit seems kind of like an in-between lens. Not really offering wide or telephoto. In which case, I'm not sure if I would use it much...

Of course, this is all hypothetical for me, since I've never owned a DSLR before.

What do you guys think? Do you find the need for that kind of lens much when you are shooting?

Thanks again!
 
Thanks Tom and Guy again for such great responses. Really helped me out.

Based on the advice given here, and my other research, I'm pretty
sure I'm going to go with the olympus e-520.
It's a big bigger than the 420, but the 420 does not seem to have
Image Stabilization, which I think I would find to be a useful
feature when shooting in low light. The 520 is not THAT much bigger
anyway. They are both big when you put a lens on it.

I also went down and checked out some of the lenses... wow. they can
get really pricey. That 7-14mm that Guy mentioned was almost 200
000yen! (US$2000).
With Olympus you get what you pay for, The super duper lenses are super duper expensive, but there's nothing quite like them made by other companies, particularly that 7-14mm lens. Also big f/2 zooms that need a truckload of money to buy.

The E-520 does indeed have sensor stabilisation where the E-420 does not. There are various other small feature differences that make the E-520 the preferred buy of the two. The E-520 uses the same battery as the all the other E-series camera except that the E-420/410/400 use a smaller battery. That E-520 battery was used in the older C-5060 and C-8080 digicams plus some others, so it is not a rare battery to find.
A useful chart of E-420/520 differences is found here...
http://www.wrotniak.net/photo/43/e420-e520.html

With the E-520 forget about using the xD card slot except as maybe an emergency thing, xD cards are slow, expensive and unreliable. Stick to CF cards and use the Class 6 types for best performance, maybe keep an xD card in the slot only for overflow reasons.
Not sure what to do about lenses at this point. I might just go with
the kit lenses as they will be the cheapest, and most people seem to
think they are pretty decent.
As I said before, I'm more interested in taking wide-angle shots, so
I think I might wait for the 9-18mm to come out later this year and
add it to my kit then, rather than going for a 11-22mm.

In fact, I'm thinking about just getting the 14-42mm kit lens and
skipping the 2nd kit 40-150mm lens altogether, and then if I feel the
need for telephoto later, maybe getting the 70-300mm which will offer
a much bigger range.
My reasoning is that the 40-150 that comes with the kit seems kind of
like an in-between lens. Not really offering wide or telephoto. In
which case, I'm not sure if I would use it much...
According to the price at purchase of the twin lens kit, getting the 40-150 lens usually only adds a little and it makes a handy lightweight lens that may come in more use later when wanting to travel light.

Later add the 70-300mm and the 9-18mm as mentioned. That way you get coverage from 18mm to 600mm equivalent.
Of course, this is all hypothetical for me, since I've never owned a
DSLR before.
Most people who swap to DSLRs do find problems at first getting the same apparent quality in their shots. It takes a bit of camera tuning and user tuning to get nice results it seems. There's just so many things that can be adjusted on a DSLR that it's all too easy to set it up wrong.

Careful reading and perseverance and politely asking the often dumbo questions in the appropriate DSLR forum will get you going.

For reading about Olympus stuff at least this site is hard to beat..
http://www.wrotniak.net/photo/43/index.html
What do you guys think? Do you find the need for that kind of lens
much when you are shooting?
It really depends on what you like to shoot, for general travel stuff and about the house etc the wide to middle focal lengths work OK. If trying to shoot small animals and birds in the trees then you need as much tele as you can get.

When I travelled with the kit lenses that came with my E-300 (was 14-45mm and 40-150mm but larger size than the new ones) I found that the 40-150 was used maybe about 5% of the time, but when you need it you really do need it. Some say to "zoom with your feet" but if a road, river or fence stops you doing that then some decent tele reach is required. That new 40-150mm is so small that it can easily be carried everywhere just in case.

For portrait work the 40mm to 70mm range of the 40-150mm lens is very handy.

In general for travel I consider the range 28-300mm equivalent to be ideal, but a bit wider is always handy.

Regards............... Guy
 
I mentioned Sony because of the above things I mentioned. I feel the tilting screen could be of some use to me yet I don't think the A350's extra megs can give me anything extra. You are right about the 200 though. It is a good bargain at the moment and I think from reading reviews and comments it turns out decent photos. No tilt for me though! I've had a look and hold of the 350 but I'm returning today with a view to looking at the 300. There are some cool lens available for the Sony but like everything else you have to pay for the best.

I did find a couple of L10's but didn't want to pay the asking price which is £100 more than if I ordered from the web so asked if they could do anything with the price. The boss is away so they couldn't offer me a price ! They could text him but he won't reply until maybe mid week ! Other than that he'll be back in 2 weeks !!! Obviously don't need the business.

TALLY
 
Based on the advice given here, and my other research, I'm pretty
sure I'm going to go with the olympus e-520.
See you in the Oly forum! It'll be interesting to have another person from the Kansai region around.
I also went down and checked out some of the lenses... wow. they can
get really pricey. That 7-14mm that Guy mentioned was almost 200
000yen! (US$2000).
Yes, but the Nikon equivalent is about 230,000 yen (the 14-24mm for Full Frame)

You can get the 7-14mm for as low as 165,000 in Japan, just check kakaku.com to see how the prices vary throughout Japan. If you haven't used kakaku, it's like ebay except shops compete by driving the prices down. The lowest price is at the top of the page. Here is the 7-14mm on kakaku:

http://kakaku.com/item/10504011350/
Not sure what to do about lenses at this point. I might just go with
the kit lenses as they will be the cheapest, and most people seem to
think they are pretty decent.
As I said before, I'm more interested in taking wide-angle shots, so
I think I might wait for the 9-18mm to come out later this year and
add it to my kit then, rather than going for a 11-22mm.
Good idea.Or you could buy the E-520 body, skip the kit lens and the 9-18mm and get the 12-60mm. The money saved on the kit added to the price of the 9-18mm (guessing 50,000 to 60,000 yen) will come close to the 12-60mm, depending on where you buy it. Here are current kakaku prices:

http://kakaku.com/item/10504011887/

Of course, if you want a light lens option, then get the kit lens. Or consider the 25mm pancake.

I got rid of my 11-22 and 14-54 and got the 12-60 lens. Less stuff to carry now. Dpreview has a review of this lens in the lens review section.
In fact, I'm thinking about just getting the 14-42mm kit lens and
skipping the 2nd kit 40-150mm lens altogether, and then if I feel the
need for telephoto later, maybe getting the 70-300mm which will offer
a much bigger range.
Better yet, get the old version of the 50-200mm f2.8 lens. Since the newer, SWD version was released, the prices for this lens have dropped quite a bit. Optically there is no difference between the new and old (that I know of) and the SWD won't make a huge difference in focusing speed on the E-520. The lens is FAR better than the 70-300mm (faster and sharper), is dust and moisture proof, and comes with it's own carrying case and tripod collar. Used ones can definitely be found for between 50-60,000 yen (I've seen quite a few) which is not that far off the price of a new 70-300mm, and you MIGHT find new ones for as low as 70,000 though 85,000 is more realistic.

you can see it in the four thirds org site under discontinued lenses(towards the bottom):
http://www.four-thirds.org/en/products/lense.html

(Make sure you try out the lens and body matching function on that page, it's kind off cool.)

In another thread I gave a guy some advice for shopping around Osaka. I HIGHLY recommend a small shop called Tokiwa camera (the person in that thread ended up buying an E-420, 50-200swd and 12-60mm there.
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=27855158

In addition to the lenses I have, I've also owned the 18-180mm, 14-45,40-150mm (old version), Sigma 30mm, 14-54mm, and 11-22mm. What do I think is worth considering? I have gotten a lot of use out of the 8mm fisheye. It doesn't seem like it, but it is and amazing lens to have. The following post is made up of 8mm and 50-200mm lens shots:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=27461137

And here are a bunch, 8mm only:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=28297876

If you have any questions, don't hesitate.

--
Olympus E-3 and E-420, Panasonic DMC-L1

Leica 25mm and 14-50mm. Zuiko 25mm pancake, 50mm, 14-42mm, 12-60mm, 50-200mm, and 8mm fisheye. FL-36 Flash.
Canon PowerShot TX1
Ricoh GR-D
Sony DSC-V3
 
According to the price at purchase of the twin lens kit, getting the
40-150 lens usually only adds a little and it makes a handy
lightweight lens that may come in more use later when wanting to
travel light.

Later add the 70-300mm and the 9-18mm as mentioned. That way you get
coverage from 18mm to 600mm equivalent.
Of course, this is all hypothetical for me, since I've never owned a
DSLR before.
Most people who swap to DSLRs do find problems at first getting the
same apparent quality in their shots. It takes a bit of camera tuning
and user tuning to get nice results it seems. There's just so many
things that can be adjusted on a DSLR that it's all too easy to set
it up wrong.

Careful reading and perseverance and politely asking the often dumbo
questions in the appropriate DSLR forum will get you going.

For reading about Olympus stuff at least this site is hard to beat..
http://www.wrotniak.net/photo/43/index.html
What do you guys think? Do you find the need for that kind of lens
much when you are shooting?
It really depends on what you like to shoot, for general travel stuff
and about the house etc the wide to middle focal lengths work OK. If
trying to shoot small animals and birds in the trees then you need as
much tele as you can get.

When I travelled with the kit lenses that came with my E-300 (was
14-45mm and 40-150mm but larger size than the new ones) I found that
the 40-150 was used maybe about 5% of the time, but when you need it
you really do need it. Some say to "zoom with your feet" but if a
road, river or fence stops you doing that then some decent tele reach
is required. That new 40-150mm is so small that it can easily be
carried everywhere just in case.

For portrait work the 40mm to 70mm range of the 40-150mm lens is very
handy.

In general for travel I consider the range 28-300mm equivalent to be
ideal, but a bit wider is always handy.

Regards............... Guy
Great advice again. Thanks Guy. I'm going to go for the e-520 with the dual lens kit. Thanks for the heads up about the memory card too. I'll look for a CF one.

A bit off topic, but regarding lenses:

I've been looking around at flickr etc for pictures taken with the 510 or 520, and the images which really impress me the most seem to all be taken with various different brands of f1.4 single focus lens.
The images I liked the best, were I think taken with a Leica f1.4/50mm.

Is it a characteristic of f1.4 lenses or that they are single focal length that gives them such nice images?

When I say 'nice', I don't know exactly how to explain it, but they seem to have so much character somehow.. (I'll find an example of what I mean and post it later)

The images I saw taken with the lens kit lenses were nice sharp images, but didn't seem to posses anywhere near the same kind of 'character' as the f1.4/50mm.

Cheers
 
See you in the Oly forum! It'll be interesting to have another person
from the Kansai region around.
Sure will! :)

I checked out the photos you posted below. Some really nice pics there, and I recognized a lot of the places too :)
You can get the 7-14mm for as low as 165,000 in Japan, just check
kakaku.com to see how the prices vary throughout Japan. If you
haven't used kakaku, it's like ebay except shops compete by driving
the prices down. The lowest price is at the top of the page. Here is
the 7-14mm on kakaku:
Wow! that is an awesome site! It showed me some shops I can buy the e520 at which are even cheaper. Going to go check them out today after work. Thank you so much for directing me to that site!
Of course, if you want a light lens option, then get the kit lens. Or
consider the 25mm pancake.

I got rid of my 11-22 and 14-54 and got the 12-60 lens. Less stuff to
carry now. Dpreview has a review of this lens in the lens review
section.
Would love to get the 12-60, but I think I'm just going to go with the lens kits for now for the affordability and portability. They should be enough to get me started, and it really does seem like a good deal.
In another thread I gave a guy some advice for shopping around Osaka.
I HIGHLY recommend a small shop called Tokiwa camera (the person in
that thread ended up buying an E-420, 50-200swd and 12-60mm there.
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=27855158
Thanks! Will check that one out too. I never realized there were all these shops. I only really knew about Bic Camera, Yodobashi, and Naniwa.
In addition to the lenses I have, I've also owned the 18-180mm,
14-45,40-150mm (old version), Sigma 30mm, 14-54mm, and 11-22mm. What
do I think is worth considering? I have gotten a lot of use out of
the 8mm fisheye. It doesn't seem like it, but it is and amazing lens
to have. The following post is made up of 8mm and 50-200mm lens shots:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=27461137

And here are a bunch, 8mm only:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=28297876
I was having a look at that lens too.. but to be honest, I don't really like the fisheye look in city or confined spaces. Having said that, there are some really really nice shots I saw posted at the moment on the olympus forum of landscape shots using that lens. If only it were a little cheaper... hehe

I'm going to wait for the 9-18 to come out and see what thats like before making a decision.
If you have any questions, don't hesitate.
Thanks heaps, you've been a great help.

If you see someone wandering around Shinsaibashi with a new E-520 trying to work out how to use it, come and say hi ;)
 
According to the price at purchase of the twin lens kit, getting the
40-150 lens usually only adds a little and it makes a handy
lightweight lens that may come in more use later when wanting to
travel light.

Later add the 70-300mm and the 9-18mm as mentioned. That way you get
coverage from 18mm to 600mm equivalent.
Of course, this is all hypothetical for me, since I've never owned a
DSLR before.
A bit off topic, but regarding lenses:
I've been looking around at flickr etc for pictures taken with the
510 or 520, and the images which really impress me the most seem to
all be taken with various different brands of f1.4 single focus lens.
The images I liked the best, were I think taken with a Leica f1.4/50mm.
Is it a characteristic of f1.4 lenses or that they are single focal
length that gives them such nice images?
When I say 'nice', I don't know exactly how to explain it, but they
seem to have so much character somehow.. (I'll find an example of
what I mean and post it later)
The images I saw taken with the lens kit lenses were nice sharp
images, but didn't seem to posses anywhere near the same kind of
'character' as the f1.4/50mm.
That was what I was trying to say - single focal length lenses are what is know as "prime lenses" they are usually just that bit better than zoom lenses because they are more straight-forward to make and can be better optimised for a single focal length.

A f1.4 lens is quite a fast lens and Leica are renowned for their lens building expertise.

You would therefore expect a fast prime lens from Leica to be able to take the best images and it is probably proportional to the price of such a lens.

On the other hand what a zoom loses in absolute quality it make up by being versatile: "it zooms". To get a range of focal lengths with primes you need quite a few lenses and as per rule of the thumb they are most often faster and of better quality you can end up spending a lot of money to get the same range of focal lengths in primes as with a simple, perhaps not just quite as perfect, zoom. Add the problems of carrying a range of primes and the dust-dangers of changing them frequently then it really becomes a matter of seeking perfecting versus practicality.

On the other hand if most of your imaging is with a single focal length then the quality prime is a no-brainer and you will be glad you bought it.

Noise and many other issues of image quality are sensor related. The quality differences between lenses are more subtle and harder to see. The very best lenses are quite expensive and therefore you really need to be a seeker of the ultimate nth degree of image quality to be a fast quality prime lens junkie.

Again you can't fix composition and seizing the image-opportunity with the greatest of lenses - so it is really best to put your toe in the water with a good quality but not excessively expensive limited zoom. You can always buy "the best" lenses later when your dslr experience matures.
--
Tom Caldwell
 
The images I saw taken with the lens kit lenses were nice sharp
images, but didn't seem to posses anywhere near the same kind of
'character' as the f1.4/50mm.
There's a subtle trap here. Often the great shots you see taken with the prime lenses are because the (maybe better) photographer is better able to employ the lens. Plus is maybe more able to do superb post process adjusts.

I've seen great shots with kit lenses and crappy shots with expensive lenses.

Don't fall into the trap that the equipment makes the image, it's only part of the story.

The quality difference between zoom and prime lenses is so small that you can forget about it. The difference is mainly due to the larger apertures that can be applied to get more blur to the out of focus areas, to separate the subject from the background.

I compared the older Oly 14-45mm lens to the Oly 35mm macro lens at their best apertures, and there was really no difference to pick. They were both excellent.

I compared the older 40-150mm lens to a Nikon 55mm macro lens both at best apertures and the Oly zoom was a whisker better than the Nikon prime.

Then of course the old arguments about Bokeh surface. Bokeh being the "nature of the out of focus highlights and details".

Good Bokeh yields a nice creamy soft-edged look to an out of focus highlight, harsh Bokeh has a hard outer edge to and out of focus highlight and may cause a doubling effect to thin twigs and other details.

The sometimes controversial Ken Rockwell is spot on with his page about Bokeh and the reasons behind it. http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/bokeh.htm

Just get the twin lens kit and live with that for a while. Keep life simple at first and concentrate on the image and not on the hardware.

Regards................ Guy
 
You need to read all the specs and visit the many boards to learn about the different makes of dSLRs. You have to ask yourself what is the main type of shooting you are going to be doing so you will know what FL lenses you will need.

Also whether you will be mainly shooting low light or bright, need a flash or not or just use wide aperture expensive glass.

Will you be willing to put out the money to get dSLR glass and camera and all the other extras? It can get VERY expensive, believe me.

I have Canon but that is all I will say on that. It is up to you to look around and even visit a camera store to look at the various cameras. I would also suggest getting a book on using dSLR cameras. This is something worth studying up on before jumping into.
--
Gil
 
of the group if you want tilt. A200 image quality and speed, with
only a slight compromise in the OVF. Highly recommended.
There is a catch, though. The A300 and A350 don't use the main-sensor for LV, instead they have a secondary sensor in the viewfinder. This means that they are quick to use, but lack the perfectly accurate framing and focusing of main-sensor LV. In the E330 I have both types of LV, and I find that the main-sensor type (Mode B) is more useful for my needs that the secondary-sensor type (Mode A).

Lack of LV is the main reason that made me skip the A700 as an upgrade for my KM 7D. I'm waiting for the next model, but if Sony doesn't include main-sensor LV then I'll skip this model too. I really have no rush to upgrade from the 7D unless it's for a camera that improves on the things that I find limiting in the 7D, and the A700 is not even close (no LV, most AF sensors are not cross-type, no 100% framing).

Prog.
 
That was what I was trying to say - single focal length lenses are
what is know as "prime lenses" they are usually just that bit better
than zoom lenses because they are more straight-forward to make and
can be better optimised for a single focal length.
Thanks Tom, I'm finally starting to catch on now :)
Noise and many other issues of image quality are sensor related. The
quality differences between lenses are more subtle and harder to see.
The very best lenses are quite expensive and therefore you really
need to be a seeker of the ultimate nth degree of image quality to be
a fast quality prime lens junkie.
The quality difference between zoom and prime lenses is so small that
you can forget about it. The difference is mainly due to the larger
apertures that can be applied to get more blur to the out of focus
areas, to separate the subject from the background.
Its not really the quality of the image or lens that I am primarily concerned with (in terms of sharpness etc), but more the "feel" of the resulting image. Let me post some examples here.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/gnarayan/sets/72157604234197860/

If you look at some of these images taken by another user on these forums named "gnarayan" you can notice a distinct difference between some of the images. Apparently for most of these photos, he used either the kit 40-150 lens or the 25mm/1.4 leica lens. (if you look at the tags you can see which ones were taken with the leica because they are tagged "25mmf1.4")

Although all the images are very nice, I find that I vastly prefer the ones taken with the Leica 25mm. They somehow seem to have a lot more 'character'. Especially ones like this:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gnarayan/2358267722/in/set-72157604234197860/

Perhaps it is due to the shallow depth of field and Bokeh, as Guy was pointing out. I'm not really sure what it is that makes the images taken with that lens look different to me, but searching around on flickr I came across other ones taken with various different brands of f1.4 25mm lenses, and found many of them to posses that kind of look.

So I was just wondering if that kind of image is a result of the nature of that kind of lens or the high speed of the lens, or the 25mm size...?

(I realize that the skill of the photographer also has a large part to play too of course)

In any case, for the time being, I am going to take your advice and go with the lens kits, which I'm sure will be enough to keep me busy for a while :)
(I can't afford any extra lenses right now anyway).

Thanks to the post by "Chris_in_Osaka's" earlier in the thread, I was able to find a really good price on the 520 + dual lens kit at a tiny little shop that turned out to be just around the corner from my house! lol

They didn't have stock so they are ordering it in for me for 86000yen (approx US$810). Seems like a pretty good price, and should arrive tomorrow :))

Thanks for all your help guys. Really appreciate it.
 
Its not really the quality of the image or lens that I am primarily
concerned with (in terms of sharpness etc), but more the "feel" of
the resulting image.
It's a bit hard to determine what may be going on without true side-by-side comparison shots.

A few factors may be in play when using a large aperture prime....

The larger aperture of that prime allows a much brighter viewfinder to judge what's right and wrong in the image, particularly with low light and using the optical viewfinder.

The larger aperture causes much faster and possibly more accurate focusing.

The use of larger apertures allows lower ISO to be used for better quality.

Larger apertures allow shallower depth of field which may add more "punch" to the subject.

The usually simpler construction of a prime lens can make for better contrast in the image even if the resolution may be the same.

The exif data is gone from those sample images so it's impossible to work out what's what and what's equivalent in terms of ISO and aperture etc.

So the general summary is that it's easier to get good results with a prime lens if it has a decent maximum aperture and hence its best quality aperture will be at a more reasonable size than with a typical kit lens. But of course you lose the flexibility of use of a zoom lens.

Regards............ Guy
 
Is a hitch to some. To others it isn't.

I was suprised to find that it only had 90% coverage, I assumed (like many) it would be 100%.

There are however other advantages to it as well as it being quick like you mentioned. Live histo, live wb adjustment, etc.

Personally the A200 has made me happiest of the 3 by far. But thats just me, and I dont need live view at all. It is a pleasure to use for those that want to work in that way however.

Carl
--
http://www.AlphaMountWorld.com
http://www.CarlGarrardPhotography.com

Get off the couch, and paint some light.
 

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