Panasonic sensor production investment - less noise or just more sensors

fennerty

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DP review reported that Panasonic is to expand its sensor production

plant in Tonami, Japan in a move to boost image sensor production. "The ¥94 Billion (US $860 million) investment will allow the 48,000 sqM plant to process up to 30,000 8" silicon wafers per month, meaning total device production is likely to be in the millions. construction begins in September 2008 and the facility is expected to be fully operational by August 2009."

Do you think this means no really new sensors this year or would you think Panny may trial new developments before the factory extension goes live? Assuming there are significant sensor developments in the pipe-line, like most of us hope, if not neccessarily belive!
 
Do you think this means no really new sensors this year or would you
think Panny may trial new developments before the factory extension
goes live? Assuming there are significant sensor developments in the
pipe-line, like most of us hope, if not neccessarily belive!
I only wish I knew what Panasonic are doing about sensors!

I hope that the long silence on the FZx and FZxx front means that they are working to acquire better sensors and not just to add more pixels and more peripheral features.

Certainly I am most unlikely to change my FZ8 until there is significant sensor improvement (plus, hopefully, the option to switch off the noise reduction).

Mike

--
Panasonic EffZedEight, Fuji EffTwenty
 
1. If you compare all the megazoom cameras, and do accurate noise measurements, Panasonic's are probably among the lowest noise. If you want a mega zoom camera, and you don't want a lens that 18" long than the only way to achieve that is by using a smaller CCD. A larger CCD will mean less zoom. The 12X-18X seems to be Panasonic's hallmark feature so it's not likely they will use a larger CCD.

2. Forget the pixel peeping stuff and print a few 8x10's or 11x14's. I have a wall full shot on several different Pana cameras and there is no offensive noise. If you pixel peep, any camera will have noise.

3. When the cameras offers Aperture and Shutter priority, learn how to use it. "P" mode is a compromise and generally will not give you the optimum signal to noise results. Here, the histogram is your BEST friend!

4. I really think that Panasonic and several other companies are focused on adding as many "scene" modes as they can. While these might simplify some aspects of taking photos, they don't motivate the user to learn the basic principals of photography. Knowing that, you can definitely improve the end result.

I've been reading these forums for several years and decided to join in. It amazes me that many people's objective seem to be, to see how many faults they can find. Lighten up and try the cameras, you will be surprised how well they do.

--
Check out my work at http://www.flickr.com/photos/wasabi_bob
 
A very small fraction of noise is actually the fault of the sensor. Most of it is from quantum fluctuations in the photon "rain" hitting the sensor.

If you put an array of cups out in the rain long enough for each to collect, on average, 100 drops, the actual number collected by each cup will fluctuate around 100. (The standard deviation goes as sqrt(N).) There's nothing wrong with the cups; that's just the random nature of rain.

Same for CCD pixels and light.

If you instead have bigger cups, you might collect 10000 drops on average per cup. There will still be fluctuations, but they will be a smaller fraction of the total signal, and signal-to-noise ratio goes up.

The only real way to improve noise at a given ISO is to use a bigger sensor. This means a bigger (and probably slower) lens. (Note that the FZ lenses got slower when the sensor sizes went up.)

Rather than doing anything to the FZ50 sensor, leave it alone. It's perfectly fine. 10MP is plenty of resolution. Instead, get the smart guys at Leica to figure out how to make faster lenses that are still as sharp. That'll give real improvement in low-light ability.
 
It's called the Backlit CCD. Recently announced by Omnivision and now
Sony. Check out the link below. Hopefully Panny will jump on this
technology as well.

We can only hope.
Tech improves, who can say where we will be in 10 years time. What bothers me, is that any advances, will be wiped out in the ever appealing megapixel wars, that have been so tedious to date. that's before we even talk about the optics not being able to deliver on many new high mp models.

Makers really need to get their head around something more than just a few extra lousy megapixels. I for one would like some decent DR on small sensors!

--



I am not the 'Ghost Hunter', nor am I the Irish actor in the 'Quiet Man' ;-)
 
Barry

I agree. It's insane. And, with a technology development like this, perhaps they will go to 50 mp.. But we can hope.

LarryB
--
Olympus E-510 DSLR with 14-42 mm & 40-150 mm Lens

Lumix FZ 50, FZ 20,TZ3, FX 07, TCON 17, MCON 35, RDS, Sunpak 383.

Fuji F-20.
 
Thank you everyone for your comments. While I agree we can't alter the laws of physics there is clearly some further development possible to reduce noise. As pointed out Sony backlighting of diodes under development, the Fuji supper CCD diode arrangement and Kodak's new (camera) chips for example. A switch to CMOS (or NMOS) with greater on chip circuitry could also help and may even reduce costs.

Although I find my FZ7 amazing in its capabilities in good light; I do crave for lower noise. When I compare it with my Fuji F30 the latter is so superior in lower lighting, admiiitedly with a slightly larger but more sophisticated sensor design. I can produce very large clear almost noiseless prints and all from 6MP.

I want to replace the FZ7, but the FZ18's main advantage is the wide angle which I can achieve with my adapter. I just hope when and if it arrives, the focus is not on more pixels but better ones. Somehow with Nikon now having the P80 with 10MP I think Panny will feel obliged to follow.

David

FZ7, F30 , Ixus
 
1. If you compare all the megazoom cameras, and do accurate noise
measurements, Panasonic's are probably among the lowest noise. If you
want a mega zoom camera, and you don't want a lens that 18" long than
the only way to achieve that is by using a smaller CCD. A larger CCD
will mean less zoom. The 12X-18X seems to be Panasonic's hallmark
feature so it's not likely they will use a larger CCD.
But the point is that we've gone backwards: my FZ8 with JPEG's puts frogspawn into my skies, etc, at 100 ISO, probably more than a 6 MP FZ5 or FZ7 does. A "better" sensor in my sense might mean dropping some pixels to improve IQ - and to sell it on that basis.
2. Forget the pixel peeping stuff and print a few 8x10's or 11x14's.
I have a wall full shot on several different Pana cameras and there
is no offensive noise. If you pixel peep, any camera will have noise.
I agree, but that does not mean that lower noise would not be an improvement.
3. When the cameras offers Aperture and Shutter priority, learn how
to use it. "P" mode is a compromise and generally will not give you
the optimum signal to noise results. Here, the histogram is your BEST
friend!
I use mostly use aperture priority. Not sure about the histogram - I suspect that it usually tells me to use 0 EV, whereas to get the picture the way I want it I have to use anything between -1.33 and +1.33 EV. I think I do better using the EVF to judge the EV required.
4. I really think that Panasonic and several other companies are
focused on adding as many "scene" modes as they can. While these
might simplify some aspects of taking photos, they don't motivate the
user to learn the basic principals of photography. Knowing that, you
can definitely improve the end result.
Yes.
I've been reading these forums for several years and decided to join
in. It amazes me that many people's objective seem to be, to see how
many faults they can find. Lighten up and try the cameras, you will
be surprised how well they do.
I agree, I am always singing the praises of the FZ8. I bought it knowing its faults, but it is still top gun for me.

But I could manage without the frogspawn at 100 ISO, and I regard this as constructive criticism, not whinging. Right now, there is no other camera that I would rather have.

Mike

Panasonic EffZedEight, Fuji EffTwenty
 
. . . The only real way to improve noise at a given ISO is to use a bigger
sensor. This means a bigger (and probably slower) lens. (Note that
the FZ lenses got slower when the sensor sizes went up.)
Or presumably

a) to revert to a sensible no. of pixels on the same size sensor and achieve better IQ - first company to do that should get an Award for Valour and Intelligence.
or b) to improve the sensor technology.

I agree with you that the sensor, lens and camera should not get bigger and heavier or make the lens more boring . . . e.g. it would miss the point of why many people buy an FZ8.

Mike

Panasonic EffZedEight, Fuji EffTwenty
 
. . . Makers really need to get their head around something more than just
a few extra lousy megapixels. I for one would like some decent DR on
small sensors!
Well put!!!

Mike

Panasonic EffZedEight, Fuji EffTwenty
 
. . . The only real way to improve noise at a given ISO is to use a bigger
sensor. This means a bigger (and probably slower) lens. (Note that
the FZ lenses got slower when the sensor sizes went up.)
Or presumably
a) to revert to a sensible no. of pixels on the same size sensor and
achieve better IQ - first company to do that should get an Award for
Valour and Intelligence.
Decreasing pixel count while holding sensor size the same will actually decrease image quality. It is entirely a myth that, all other things equal, a lower pixel-count sensor provides a better image.

Consider two sensors of the same area, one 12MP (4000x3000) and one 3MP (2000x1500). The 12MP image can always be downsized via pixel-binning down to 2000x1500, in which four pixels are averaged to get one output pixel.

This will produce an image identical to the 3MP sensor, since the four pixels that were averaged together have the same light-sensitive area as one 3MP pixel. But there's no way for the 3MP sensor to capture the extra detail that the 12MP sensor can in good light.

Yes -- you won't be able to resolve very fine low-contrast detail at high ISO on the 12MP sensor, because it will be swamped by noise. But the 3MP sensor can't resolve it either , since it simply lacks the resolution.

However, the 12MP sensor can resolve fine high-contrast detail at high ISO, since the contrast is high enough to stand out above the noise. The 3MP sensor, however, again lacks the resolution to do this.

It's certainly true that 100% crops from high pixel count sensors don't look as good. Shot at high ISO, the 12MP sensor's 100% crops will be full of noise. But they're certainly better than a 3MP image viewed at 200%.

It's also certainly true that the advantage in detail offered by more pixels diminishes at high ISO, and that you suffer diminishing returns as the pixels get tiny. The step from 2MP to 3MP is much more significant than the step from 8MP to 12MP, for instance.

But, all other things (quantum efficiency, microlens stuff, etc) being equal, the image from a high pixel-count sensor of the same size will be at least as good as the one from a low pixel-count sensor.

Now, there are certainly usability issues with high pixel counts: they take more RAM to buffer, longer to process, longer to write to the card, etc. At some point it becomes not worth it to increase pixel counts any more, and we're certainly close to that point. But you can't gain an IQ advantage by going backwards.
or b) to improve the sensor technology.
What do you suggest that they do? There's nothing you can do to a sensor to make the light itself falling on it less noisy. Noise is not the fault of the sensor.

All you can do is collect more light . To do that you either need longer exposures, larger sensors, or brighter lenses. Panasonic's already done wonders for the "longer exposures" angle by adding OIS to P&S lenses.

Now we can either get bigger sensors or brighter lenses, and as you point out bigger sensors aren't an option for the FZ line. That leaves brighter lenses as the only thing they can do to improve low-light IQ on the camera end.

On the processing end, they can certainly improve noise-reduction algorithms, since the Venus III one is pretty bad (and far too aggressive). Thankfully there's a RAW mode on the FZ's so we can bypass it and do it ourselves (or, more often, not do it).
 
For some reason, people keep thinking Panasonic sensors are necessarily more noisy, especially because DPreview has been saying that for years now. However if you look at the raw files from the FZ50 and others, the Panasonic sensors aren't really that noisy, it's the image processing that creates the "water-colour" look so universally hated. The FZ50 actually beats the snort out of all the old 2~3 mega pixel cameras I've used in terms of noise(Canon G2, S30, old Coolpix cameras, Kodak DC290, etc), especially when you see the whole image, not the pixels.
 
For some reason, people keep thinking Panasonic sensors are
necessarily more noisy, especially because DPreview has been saying
that for years now. However if you look at the raw files from the
FZ50 and others, the Panasonic sensors aren't really that noisy, it's
the image processing that creates the "water-colour" look so
universally hated. The FZ50 actually beats the snort out of all
the old 2~3 mega pixel cameras I've used in terms of noise(Canon G2,
S30, old Coolpix cameras, Kodak DC290, etc), especially when you see
the whole image, not the pixels.
Well I dont blame dp for saying pannie was a bit more noisy, they were (back in fz-5 days), now..we just get increased NR to cover it up. I agree, you can get much better results in raw, shows you just how poor the jpegs are though.

This is hardly a pannie only affair though.

What I do blame dp for, is giving god awful IQ cameras like the R8, decent reviews (yes I note the pros and cons section), having used one myself last week, its nice to hold and build etc. But oh dear...what a disaster IQ wise. Am I alone in thinking people buy cameras for taking images???? ;-)

Hmm, makes you think eh!

There is no way you could rate that as anything over average, if that, plus its overpriced too. Still, we dont want reviews being critical now do we? I got news, why does a 1970's freebie camera (with more work of course), take images that smash this sort of junk out of the water? So much for progress...

--



I am not the 'Ghost Hunter', nor am I the Irish actor in the 'Quiet Man' ;-)
 
It's not that DPreview just say the Panasonic cameras are more noisy, but they always say something about Panasonic sensors being more noisy and Panasonic need to spend more time on the sensor development and decrease pixels, etc. People buy that notion without considering the actual output from the sensor, the raw images, even though DPreview does show them.

Speaking Ricohs... they are very well built cameras and very fast. And...umm.. they are very well-built and fast. I don't want to fight the Ricoh fans, so I'll keep my mouth shut ;)
Well I dont blame dp for saying pannie was a bit more noisy, they
were (back in fz-5 days), now..we just get increased NR to cover it
up. I agree, you can get much better results in raw, shows you just
how poor the jpegs are though.

This is hardly a pannie only affair though.

What I do blame dp for, is giving god awful IQ cameras like the R8,
decent reviews (yes I note the pros and cons section), having used
one myself last week, its nice to hold and build etc. But oh
dear...what a disaster IQ wise. Am I alone in thinking people buy
cameras for taking images???? ;-)

Hmm, makes you think eh!

There is no way you could rate that as anything over average, if
that, plus its overpriced too. Still, we dont want reviews being
critical now do we? I got news, why does a 1970's freebie camera
(with more work of course), take images that smash this sort of junk
out of the water? So much for progress...
 
For some reason, people keep thinking Panasonic sensors are
necessarily more noisy, especially because DPreview has been saying
that for years now. However if you look at the raw files from the
FZ50 and others, the Panasonic sensors aren't really that noisy, it's
the image processing that creates the "water-colour" look so
universally hated.
Exactly.

Panasonic sensors are no more or less noisy than the competition, since the noise is mostly from unevenness in the light itself (see my first post in this thread) rather than any behavior of the sensor.

What is different is the horrible noise-reduction processing that makes things worse rather than better.

In the early FZ days, they were head and shoulders above the competition. (Read DPReview's review of the FZ3, for instance). The only criticism was sensor noise, but that's common to all small-sensor superzoom cameras. So the reviews said "Great optics, great IS, but noisy."

Panasonic's marketing people probably heard this and said "Oh! We get marked down for noise! Make there be less noise!"

... and smudgey overaggressive NR was born, which makes things worse.

Lesson to marketing people: Saying that superzooms exhibit noise at high ISO's isn't a request for you to do anything about it. If a lens reviewer noted that a 400mm f/2.8 lens was "very sharp, but too heavy to handhold", Canon's marketroids aren't going to insist that their lens designers make one out of Plexiglass since it's lighter.

i.e. leave the engineers alone and let them do their thing, rather than insisting on smudgey NR!
 
Decreasing pixel count while holding sensor size the same will
actually decrease image quality. . . . >
Thanks for taking the time for the explanation! I thought that there was a sort of consensus that the FZ5 was the "sweet spot" for IQ in the FZx range, at least up to moderate enlargement size (re out-of-camera JPEG'S, of course). But maybe that is not the case.
or b) to improve the sensor technology.
What do you suggest that they do? There's nothing you can do to a
sensor to make the light itself falling on it less noisy. Noise is
not the fault of the sensor.
I had a vague idea that sensor technology can and will be improved and that Canon's CMOS and Fuji's Super CCD technologies are superior to Panasonic's CCD - perhaps from anecdotal evidence or Canon/Fuji hype.

But I'm not a scientist and I don't really mind whether my 100 ISO frogspawn is caused by noise, fluctuations in proton rain, Venus III noise reduction, global warming, international terrorism or the price of gas/petrol . . . I just know that I could manage without it, and that my F20 is cleaner at 1600 ISO than my FZ8 at 400 ISO (I know, I know, the F20 sensor is bigger and would make the FZ8 too big/heavy).

Panasonic could make a useful start by giving us the option to switch off the noise reduction completely, so that those who want to can use an external program. Surely that would be a very simple change to make.

Mike

Panasonic EffZedEight, Fuji EffTwenty
 
ButI'm not a scientist and I don't really mind whether my 100 ISO
frogspawn is caused by noise, fluctuations in proton rain . . .
I meant photon rain.
Mike
 
And the thing is the Fuji sensor isn't really that clean if you see the raw file.(Check the Fuji S6000 review here, which uses the same sensor as your F20) It's just that Fuji does a great job of reducing noise on their JPEG files, it's basically a built-in Neat Image/NoiseNinja.

Fuji S6000 raw



JPEG



Canon's large CMOS sensors really used to be cleaner,(coupled with their effective JPEG noise reduction) but Sony has made strides over the years and these days it seems that there really isn't that big of a difference in noise levels between sensors of the same generation.
I had a vague idea that sensor technology can and will be improved
and that Canon's CMOS and Fuji's Super CCD technologies are superior
to Panasonic's CCD - perhaps from anecdotal evidence or Canon/Fuji
hype.

But I'm not a scientist and I don't really mind whether my 100 ISO
frogspawn is caused by noise, fluctuations in proton rain, Venus III
noise reduction, global warming, international terrorism or the price
of gas/petrol . . . I just know that I could manage without it, and
that my F20 is cleaner at 1600 ISO than my FZ8 at 400 ISO (I know, I
know, the F20 sensor is bigger and would make the FZ8 too big/heavy).

Panasonic could make a useful start by giving us the option to switch
off the noise reduction completely, so that those who want to can use
an external program. Surely that would be a very simple change to
make.

Mike

Panasonic EffZedEight, Fuji EffTwenty
 
Thanks for all your comments, and I can see that it is the combination of noise, noise reduction and possibly photon rain which is giving me 100 ISO frogspawn.

Which brings me back to where I started, i.e. that I could manage without the frogspawn, however good the FZ8 is in other ways.

Mike
 

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