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So Nikon got their new d700, are we next? (nt)

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manfred_f said:
I would like to see two image processors for a 24MP chip, which is
capable to deliver 5fps.
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:):)
Happy ?!
manfred_f said:
14-bit option that cuts down the fps to half
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:(
manfred_f said:
15 cross-type af-sensors
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:( not even close unfortunatelly
manfred_f said:
that is a flagship model in my opinion.
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Depends on manufacturers target users which are different to CaNikon and Sony

Happy shooting

--
-- http://www.dyxum.com - the world of the Minolta/Alpha mount digital SLR
 
SteveGJ said:
Ehrik said:
14 bits is pure marketing at this point in time. The only DSLR that
needs (slightly) more than 12 bits is -- the K10D (!). And only
if you find one without too much vertical pattern noise.

All other DSLRs have too much read noise to make use of the
13th and 14th bits. (The K10D is noisier than other cameras in the
midtones, but that is shot noise related and doesn't have to do with
bit depth or DR.)
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I've no idea how the shot noise part can affect the mid-tones and not
the shadow areas. Logic would say that shot-noise, which is a
statistical affect on teh arrival rate of photons, is going to be
apparent in the dark areas. The arrival rate follows a poisson
distribution, and as a proportion noise is higher at low arrival
rates - that is the dark ones.
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That's simply because in the deep shadows, the read noise (which is
independent of signal) is overwhelming the shot noise (which,
being sqrt(signal) goes to zero when signal goes to zero).
SteveGJ said:
I quite appreciate the point that the bottom couple of bits on a 14
bit sampled image could just be dominatged by noise. However, it's
the sensors with the least exposure to shot noise, ie those with
larger photosites, that should be able to maike use of it.
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No, for the same reason as above.
SteveGJ said:
Going to 14 bits does give a theoretical potential increase in the DR
that can be represented. Basically the number of bits is the maximum
number of stops that can be represented with a linear representation.
Click to expand...
Yes but this is only relevant when the system is quantisation noise limited,
not if it is read noise limited. Only the K10D is slightly quantisation noise
limited.
SteveGJ said:
The second potential advantage is that it's possible to get smoother
gradations. However, again this only really matters in the darker
areas where there are fewer bits to represent the changes. Further,
this only becomes of importance if you apply a suitable tone curve -
output devices generally won't deal with such fine changes unless
this is dones (and especially if the output is represented as 8 bit
colour depth, as it is with JPEGs and display monitors).
Click to expand...
Noise dithering will create enough gradation in the darker tones.
SteveGJ said:
However, the long and short of it is 14 bit is probably hype for all
but the lowest noise sensors.
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Actually, the sensors have more DR than we ever see. It's getting the
signal off the sensor that adds enough noise to make 14 bits a waste.
SteveGJ said:
The type of sensor that will benefit
will be the relatively large photosites on something like the Nikon
D3 sensor or medium format backs. In this case, the advantages, if
there are any, will be in the dark areas unless you apply some very
strange and extreme tone curve. There are generally lots of bits in
the mid and bright areas of photos.
Click to expand...
That is correct. Measurements of the D3 raws have shown, though,
that the DR is sufficiently less than 12 stops not to need more than
12 bits.

Just my two oere
Erik from Sweden
 
cgarrard said:
Photokina, like I have been saying for a while :)
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We have to wait for Photokina for the flagship or some other FF camera? Kinda making Sony look a little "me too". I'm guessing there will be follow on D3X and D700X cameras with the 24MP sensor. I hope there are some Sony-specific features or it might be tough to compete with the D700/D700X.
Member said:
--
http://www.AlphaMountWorld.com
http://www.CarlGarrardPhotography.com

Get out there and paint some light.
Click to expand...
--
fjbyrne
 
Lets do a rundown of the main features (from the preview).
  • 12.1 megapixel full-frame sensor (8.45µm pixel pitch)
I'd be OK with 12.1 MP and high-ISO performance but we know a 24MP version is coming. Maybe we'll be surprised with a 12MP version.
  • Image Sensor Cleaning (vibration) *
Sony has this already but could be improved.
  • ISO 200 - 6400 (with boost up to ISO 25600 and down to ISO 100)
Depends on the sensor. I can't see > ISO 6400 with the 24MP
  • Also supports DX lenses, viewfinder automatically masks (5.1 megapixels with DX lens)
I can't imagine the Sony wouldn't support something like this.
  • 14-bit A/D conversion, 12 channel readout
Not sure 14-bit makes much difference but it might become one of those "gotta have it" features.
  • Same ultra-fast startup and shutter lag as D3
I can live with A700-level performance but I would never turn down better ;)
  • Nikon EXPEED image processor (Capture NX processing and NR algorithms, lower power)
Sony needs work in the high-ISO department IMO. And please put an off switch on the NR so we don't have to debate it again.
  • New Kevlar / carbon fibre composite shutter with 150,000 exposure durability
Sounds similar to the A700 shutter

*
  • Multi-CAM3500FX Auto Focus sensor (51-point, 15 cross-type, more vertical coverage)
I'm OK with the A700 AF
  • Auto-focus tracking by color (using information from 1005-pixel AE sensor)
This sounds like a great feature. I haven't read any detailed performance tests but it sounds like it would be great for sports
  • 95% coverage, 0.72x magnification viewfinder *
Expecting the Sony to be in the ball park here
  • Auto-focus calibration (fine-tuning), fixed body or up to 20 separate lens settings
This is something I think is a must-have for Sony and should have been in the A700
  • Scene Recognition System (uses AE sensor, AF sensor)
Not sure what this is. Sounds neat though.
  • Picture Control image parameter presets
  • 5 frames per second continuous with auto-focus tracking*
Similar to the A700 and I hope the flagship turns in this level of performance
  • Optional MB-D10 Battery Pack (same as D300), increases burst rate to 8 fps *
Doubt we'll see extra FPS with the Sony grip - wouldn't complain
  • UDMA compatible single CF card slot *
  • 3.0" 922,000 pixel LCD monitor
A700 has this already and I expect the flagship to as well
  • Live View with either phase detect (mirror up/down) or contrast detect Auto Focus
I have no idea about LV and the flagship
  • Virtual horizon indicates if camera is level (like an aircraft cockpit display)
As a "horizon challenged" photographer I would really like something like this
  • HDMI HD video output
  • 'Active D-Lighting' (adjusts metering as well as applying D-Lighting curve)
  • Detailed 'Control Panel' type display on LCD monitor, changes color in darkness
  • Magnesium alloy body with connections and buttons sealed against moisture
  • Improved Info display on main screen *
Sony already has this stuff in the A700 and I expect it in the flagship.

Of course there is SSS and CZ AF lenses available. What does everyone think?

--
fjbyrne
 
in traition of market (last 3-4 year) Sony give Nikon the right "first shot" in terms of new sensor :)
Probably Sony A800 12.1MP will be announce soon (2-6 weeks) :)
 
Mika Kovalainen said:
And it comes in the form of five metters

SSS and CZ
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I agree SSS and CZ are great features but the don't appear to have pulled all that many people into the Sony camp so far. I'm not sure we should expect them to in the FF market - they should IMO but then again I expected them to have more impact in the past then they did.

--
fjbyrne
 
manfred_f said:
Because the competition always raises the bar, Sony has always to
react and adapt the mockup (because the want to call it flagship)
;-). Don’t take this too serious I am just kidding.
Slowly but surely I get the impression Sony just holds us on the long
wait and at end will not be able to deliver what they promised.
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Yes but hopefully what they deliver wont be old or outdated technol;ogy.
manfred_f said:
I don’t understand why we are always talking about the price tag, I
rather would like to see Sony performing well on the
feature/performance side than the price – we are talking about a
flagship model!
One of the major concerns in my opinion is the frames per second! I
would like to see two image processors for a 24MP chip, which is
capable to deliver 5fps.
Click to expand...
Agree, I really think there will be 2 bodies to accomplish this.
manfred_f said:
14-bit option that cuts down the fps to half, 15 cross-type
af-sensors… that is a flagship model in my opinion.
Click to expand...
--
Thanks,

Digitalshooter!

My first Digital Camera was a Sony Mavica!
 
It's the camera I wanted when I bought the A700. I guess I'll end up holding out for the A800 MKIII.
deribas2 said:
in traition of market (last 3-4 year) Sony give Nikon the right
"first shot" in terms of new sensor :)
Probably Sony A800 12.1MP will be announce soon (2-6 weeks) :)
Click to expand...
 
I haven't time to reply to all this now, but shot noise as a proportion of the arrival rate increases with reduced arrival rates. Basically the arrival rate becomes more and more erratic. That makes the noise much more noticable in the dark areas. At high arrival rates it smooths out as a proportion - there's lots of articles around on this.

It's also obvious - look at any properly exposed high-ISO image with dark shadow areas, and the noise is much more obvious than in the light areas. Take a high ISO image in a universally well illuminated area and the noise is almost invisible. Human eyes don't react linearly.
 
I wonder if the flagship will be able to boost continuous frame rate by using the sensor as 2 x 12mp sensors?

It seems interesting to me that Nikon has stuck with 12mp for this FF camera but that Sony is still likely to pitch in with its 24mp offering. They will pitch the price way higher than the D700 for this reason alone (IMHO).

I admit to being very confused about what we are looking at these days. I reckon the various spy shots and rumours hitting the streets indicate a range of FF cameras and not just the flagship, and that all the speculation here and elsewhere has become quite confused and jumbled as a result.

Either way, I fully expect Sony will provide us with something 'different' to the competition.
 
I hope sony release the 24mp model first, a 12mp one doesn't interest me much as I rarely shoot over 1600 ISO.
 
lizardmech said:
I hope sony release the 24mp model first, a 12mp one doesn't interest
me much as I rarely shoot over 1600 ISO.
Click to expand...
So a 12mp full frame..just wouldnt "cut it" for you??

Ok, I would be pretty happy with that myself, even for low ISO..

--



I am not the 'Ghost Hunter', nor am I the Irish actor in the 'Quiet Man' ;-)
 
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