In the past three years, what has Canon innovated?

In camera IS is not compatible with in lens IS, because the
gyroscopes in the camera senses movement, so it will move the sensor,
but the in lens IS has already steadied the image before it arrives
at the sensor, so the in camera IS would simply blur the already
steadied image. Other camera makers shake the sensor because they
already have a movable sensor. It makes no sensor for Canon to have
a movable sensor since it would only cause misalignments.
Really a simply thing for the camera to detect an IS lens and turn off in-camera IS when the in-lens IS is one.
So, have I missed something? Or are there no innovations needed? No
one finds a need for ECF, for example? No one thinks that on-demand
grid-lines might not be useful? No one thinks that exposure
bracketing with a single press of the shutter button might be cool?
What innovations do you want?
I kinda thought I spelled a few of them out right above your question.

--
--joe

http://www.josephjamesphotography.com
http://www.pbase.com/joemama/
 
Innovation by definition is something that has not been done before,
and an entirely different way of doing something.
Sure, sure. But inasmuch as the 30D, 10D, 300D, and 5D were pretty big jumps in one way or another, that's what I meant.
really hardly any company has done any innovation. is nikon's
products innovative? no. perhaps a better term is progressive.
Well, in the past three years, Nikon's been a lot more "progressive" than Canon.
you're complaining about "features". that's not innovation either,
that's basically marketting bullet point watching - and you're not
even considering the legal aspects of taking technology from another
company as well.
Well, Pentax, Sony, and Olympus have in-camera IS, so what do we make of that? Canon now has anti-dust and Live-View -- ditto.
what you are looking at especially with comparison to nikon is
complaining really that nikon was asleep at the wheel for around 5 or
6 years and finally woke up and did some nice releases. canon's been
far more progressive so it doesn't have the same "delta" appeal.
Yes.
I'm sure canon could have easily released a 5d body when and if they
wanted to - since we don't know what is in it, it's a little odd to
assume they are not going to release anything innovative.
I don't think the assumption is odd at all. What reason, given the releases of both lenses and bodies in the past three years, leads one to expect otherwise?

--
--joe

http://www.josephjamesphotography.com
http://www.pbase.com/joemama/
 
I think you make a very good point. Never-the-less, Canon needs to
push that lead out again. People talk about how they were the first
with 14bit. The problem is, it didn't take a rocket scientist or
competitors to impliment that and very soon after. So, Canon really
wasn't an innnovator there. Now if they had 14bit years ahead of
anybody else, that would be a different story. The 5D is much more of
an innovation in a of itself. 3 years have gone by and nobody has a
simliar priced unit. Then again, 3 years is a long time not to update
a camera regardless of no competition or not. Canon could and should
make a D3 killer and still undercut Nikon in the price. Regardless of
price, something like the D3 is, so far, what people have wanted and
talked about. The D3 was a coup de gra for Nikon in that it was the
FF camera Canon has refused to make due to their being afraid to take
away from the 1Dmk3 sales. That's a blaring roadmap issue if I ever
saw one. Canon champoined FF digital and left a huge hole between the
5D and the 1Dsmk3. Many are hoping for the middle ground FF camera
between it's own $2000 dollar model and it's own $8000 dollar model.
Let's face it, in price and performance, that's a huge hole. Their
roadmap may say, well then you buy the 1Dmk3 at the halfway point,
but all you have to do is look at the success of the D3 and realize
just how wrong that roadmap is.
I believe we are on the same page. : )

--
--joe

http://www.josephjamesphotography.com
http://www.pbase.com/joemama/
 
Well, let's say the D700 is real. I imagine the 5DII will at worst
be a lesser featured camera with equal or slightly better IQ (ala the
40D vs D300) at a lower price point -- something like a FF 40D at
$1800, which simply makes Canon the less expensive and less featured
camera company.
My thoughts exactly. And if that's the case, the 5DII might actually be more appealing, at least to me.

Better AF than the 40D is a deal-breaker, though. If they are going to reuse the XXD AF system (again!), they should at least make all 9 AF points F2.8 sensitive - like the center AF point on the 40D. What's the point of a FF camera best suited for fast primes if you don't have a excellent AF.
But when you look at where Canon is now, and where it was, in terms
of relative strengths compared to the competition, they've certainly
either just slacked off, gotten arrogant, or have poor leadership.
Well, there's another possibility -- that I don't know jack just
armchair quarterbacking and Canon's been racking it in and saving a
few surprises. But given that their last "surprise" was a 1DIII that
had serious AF issues, I'm not betting on that option.
I'm with you on this one too. But I'd like to think of myself as an 'extreme indoor enthusiast' ;);)
 
Well, let's say the D700 is real. I imagine the 5DII will at worst
be a lesser featured camera with equal or slightly better IQ (ala the
40D vs D300) at a lower price point -- something like a FF 40D at
$1800, which simply makes Canon the less expensive and less featured
camera company.
My thoughts exactly. And if that's the case, the 5DII might actually
be more appealing, at least to me.
Likely to me as well. I don't need fps, weather sealing, or 51 AF points.
Better AF than the 40D is a deal-breaker, though. If they are going
to reuse the XXD AF system (again!), they should at least make all 9
AF points F2.8 sensitive - like the center AF point on the 40D.
That is the critical feature that I need over all others. When people ask why I "need" a better camera than what I have, it is for that. I often take pics at very shallow DOFs in low light, and having fast and accurate AF with off-center AF points would be of immense utility to me. I'd also like a lot less shutter lag.
But when you look at where Canon is now, and where it was, in terms
of relative strengths compared to the competition, they've certainly
either just slacked off, gotten arrogant, or have poor leadership.
Well, there's another possibility -- that I don't know jack just
armchair quarterbacking and Canon's been racking it in and saving a
few surprises. But given that their last "surprise" was a 1DIII that
had serious AF issues, I'm not betting on that option.
I'm with you on this one too. But I'd like to think of myself as an
'extreme indoor enthusiast' ;);)
I would characterize myself as an "exteme shallow DOF candid photographer" in any level of light. As such, ultra fast and accurate AF is top of the list in improvements that I "need", and, to lesser extent, but still important, as little shutter lag as possible. All the other features I want pale in comparison to that.

--
--joe

http://www.josephjamesphotography.com
http://www.pbase.com/joemama/
 
Hello!

I do not write here very often, but I am constantly visiting this forum.

I am not an insider and all of my information is from the net, so the infos have to be treated very carefully in general:

According to informations out of the internet is Canon working on a new stepper generation, which allows to expose one full frame sensor in one shot. As far as I know 1Ds and 5D have sensors which are basically combined out of two sensors - hopefully I am right.

That will mean a huge price drop for the sensors and therefore a pricedrop for the cameras using these sensors.
Furthermore they seem to change the wafer size from 200mm to 300mm.

That is really innovative!!

I would greatly appreciate a Nikon D700 and a Sony fullframe just because of competition.

Being an amateur I need a decent allround lens and the 24-105 IS form Canon is still very tempting - at least to me.

Nikon seems to have some very decent glass like the new 12-24 and 24-70 (truly innovative coating), but for me they are (still) lacking lens for the new fullframe generation. Lens development is very demanding and it can be understood that they try to feed the professionals first.

But I also think that Canon became more conservative the last years. They were really innovative with autofocus, ef-bajonet, eye-control, fullframe, but being the leader you can sit back a little bit and enjoy the scenery.

At the moment they seem to be more marketing driven. I hope that the pixel races are over, but my friends compare their cameras like they compare their cars and forget that a Porsche 911 is the quickest at the Nürnburg-Ring despite having the weakest engine. Picture agencies seem also to think like that.

In the future especially Nikon and Canon will have to be very innovative again, because Sony is trying to get into the mass market (amateurs from beginner to very advanced shooter) very agressively. Nearly all the big shops in Europe have now huge drawers with Sony cameras.

Just my 0,02$ ...€ (sorry for my english)!

Best regards!

Martin
 
--
phototk

Canon has added anti dust, live view and better high ISO. I believe they have done a good job. Canon Image Quality is very goog - although Nikon has caught up on IQ. The Nikon D3 still has no anti dust but I am sure they will add it. Canon and Nikon are bouth great cameras. In the futures they will add to their cameras but what they have now is quite good.
 
Pushed perfect but "before-D3" alpha stage models into perfection.

Joe, please say nicely "thank you" to Nikon & Sony R&D joint venture. You wouldn't want to see those early models on the shelves in December 08 at their early established prices...
...lenses... get your money ready...
 
One can only hope that Canon is undergoing the same phase transition that plaqued Nikon the past few years before the advent of the D3/D300.

If not for some Canon lenses, i will have switched. ;)

--------------------------------
A View through my Lens
thw.smugmug.com
 
[snip]
The total image noise will be the same regardless of the pixel count.
It's just that a larger pixel count will give more detail. Take a 24
MP image and resample it to 12 MP, and, voila, you have the same
noise as the 12 MP image (all else being the same, of course).
[snip]
This is not really true. In the deep shadows at high ISO the read noise becomes important and the read noise after resampling will be 1.5 dB worse for the 24 MP resampled to 12 MP image. Also the 24 MP image will normally have somewhat lower fill factor and thus lower QE than the 12 MP image since most non-imaging pixel structure will take up a fixed amount of area independent of pixel size. Comparing between manufacturers or between generations from the same manufacturer can see improvements that swamp these second order effects though.
 
[snip] No one thinks that exposure
bracketing with a single press of the shutter button might be cool?
I think some form of improved low ISO dynamic range is the next obvious IQ advance that Canon should concentrate on. Whether that means improving their amplifiers/A-D front-end so that they actually get the increased DR that 14 bits should allow or they simultaneously perform a low and high ISO conversion from the same capture to get the exposure bracketing you mention wouldn't matter as long as the resulting DR is 2 stops or more better than what the 5D can do.
 
Three years ago, Canon came out with the amazing 5D. What have
they done since that has not been done nearly as well as, if not
better, than the competition?

The 1DIII seems on par with the Nikon D3 -- plusses and minuses for
both in a head-to-head, with no clear winner. The 1DsIII, while
apparently a great cam, is not innovative and will likely soon have a
direct competitor as well.
The 1D mkIII could be said to be the innovative one, since it came out well before the D3.
Canon did release the amazing 70-200 / 4L IS, which no one else has
an answer for -- props for that, for sure. But while Canon has
copied the competitors in some things, like live-view and, they've
still yet to implement features such as in-camera IS, auto-ISO,
anti-dust sensor shake,
40D, 450D?
weather sealing (on non-pro cameras)

40D has some sealing, more than the 20D and 30D.

-- and
all those features would not be innovations, but merely playing
"catch-up".
And what about high ISO performance. No one has matched Canon on that, as yet, and that's far more important to getting an image than sealing or shaking.
So, have I missed something? Or are there no innovations needed? No
one finds a need for ECF, for example? No one thinks that on-demand
grid-lines might not be useful? No one thinks that exposure
bracketing with a single press of the shutter button might be cool?

I mean, is it unrealistic to think that innovations might not be
expected from the leader in DSLRs? Or is it more a case of a "job
well done getting to the top let's kick it for a bit"?

Oh, am I bitching? Yeah. Especially since I don't know what the
5DII will bring to the table. But I'm pretty sure that the biggest
"innovation" that Canon will come up with is splitting the 5D into
something like an inexpensive 7D for $1800 that's basically the same
as the current 5D that's a FF 40D and a 3D or 4D with maybe 16 MP, 1D
level AF with fewer AF points. Welcome additions, to be sure, but
not innovative.

Meanwhile, the competition appears to be quite busy.
Much of what the competition is doing is in response to other cameras. The vibrating sensor dust removal thing is Oly's trick, Live View is an import from P&S cameras, full frame is a response to Canon, etc. I don't really care about "innovation" unless it solves a specific problem. Pulling whistles and bells out of a hat merely for bragging rights is impressive in a PR sense, but if it doesn't really help the cause of getting the best image it's not pertinent to what I do.
--
Skip M
http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com
http://www.pbase.com/skipm
'Living in the heart of a dream, in the Promised Land!'
John Stewart
 
Much of what the competition is doing is in response to other
cameras. The vibrating sensor dust removal thing is Oly's trick,
Live View is an import from P&S cameras, full frame is a response to
Canon, etc. I don't really care about "innovation" unless it solves
a specific problem. Pulling whistles and bells out of a hat merely
for bragging rights is impressive in a PR sense, but if it doesn't
really help the cause of getting the best image it's not pertinent to
what I do.
No doubt.

Canon seems to be getting bad press on forums (which represent a very, very small sample size of paying customers) because they're not catering to TEKKIES with attention deficit as well as Nikon is at the moment. They want a new toy every year, regardless of the fact that their current gear doesn't limit them in any meaningful way. Whiners who pretend an expensive nikon wide angle lens will reshape the market share. ROTF (clue it's the D40/D60).

Of course anyone sensible knows things go in cycles.

This thread is a perfect example of silly whining. The OP cries about Eye focus not being used when Chuck W. clearly explained there is NO CUSTOMER DEMAND or desire for this (outside a few bored, online photographers). Sigh.
 
Canon seems to be getting bad press on forums (which represent a
very, very small sample size of paying customers) because they're not
catering to TEKKIES with attention deficit as well as Nikon is at the
moment. They want a new toy every year, regardless of the fact that
their current gear doesn't limit them in any meaningful way. Whiners
who pretend an expensive nikon wide angle lens will reshape the
market share. ROTF (clue it's the D40/D60).

Of course anyone sensible knows things go in cycles.

This thread is a perfect example of silly whining. The OP cries about
Eye focus not being used when Chuck W. clearly explained there is NO
CUSTOMER DEMAND or desire for this (outside a few bored, online
photographers). Sigh.
you do have the essense of it. cameras are not the extension of our psyche nor should they be - they are a means to an end. they are the tool that allows us to creatively capture a moment in time and freeze it forever.

personally I look at it that each generation of sensors from canon has increased the usable ISO range, even though the Mp's has increased. that isn't as dramatic as not doing anything (for instance full frame for 6 years and releasing a 12mp full frame camera) - but we had the advantages of canon's careful implementation of that a long time ago.

we do know canon is working on things - recall a year ago they showed a prototype of a 50Mp 1.3 crop sensor.

we know they are doing a significant push industry wise into things such as retina signature recording. rumours have been mentioned at an entire "new" and "different" sensor technology is being worked on.

what joe is complaining about is really that canon hasn't released a camera that he wants. not really the state of innovation. all cameras until the next big breakthrough are a stage of progression. nikon has simply caught up. they should. they've had enough time to work out the details and deliver a couple of cameras. no real great surprise there.

in the last year, yes, nikon has delivered some very very nice and compelling options. if the d700 is indeed true, nikon will deliver another one - that is great for the marketplace - does it make canon gear obsolete? does it make the billions of photos taken on canon full frame gear over the last 6+ years any less valued or valid?

all manufacturers of just about anything go through cycles. we hope that canon is at the end of it's current evolutional cycle. they may be - I know DIGIC IV, OLED, low voltage CMOS - were all mentioned / rumoured to be in the 2009 / 10 phase of implementation on DSLR bodies - which is why nikon was probably breathing a sigh of relief after the D3 came out - that none of the technologies that canon IS working on, made it into production.

in 13 calendar months canon has rolled out an entire new line of camera bodies, and refreshed the entire lineup. no other manufacturer has done that. will we get a 5D replacement with all the bells and whistles on it? i hope not, i probably won't be able to afford it if it does. will it deliver top notch IQ for it's pixel density? yes - that is something canon's always been in careful consideration of.

Interestingly it sets up an entire line refresh in the 2009 / 10 cycle.
 
...with live view, auto ISO, etc. But it's not just Canon. Except for Olympus, which innovated the self-cleaning sensor with its SSWF and Live View (for SLRs), and Minolta with in-body image stabilization, there have been few if any other innovators in the digital era. Why? Well, because so much effort has been put into reaching image quality and functional parity with film. Now that pretty much all DSLRs have, I suspect we'll see more emphasis on innovative features as a means of differentiating one manufacturer's products from its competitors.
Three years ago, Canon came out with the amazing 5D. What have
they done since that has not been done nearly as well as, if not
better, than the competition?

The 1DIII seems on par with the Nikon D3 -- plusses and minuses for
both in a head-to-head, with no clear winner. The 1DsIII, while
apparently a great cam, is not innovative and will likely soon have a
direct competitor as well.

Canon did release the amazing 70-200 / 4L IS, which no one else has
an answer for -- props for that, for sure. But while Canon has
copied the competitors in some things, like live-view and, they've
still yet to implement features such as in-camera IS, auto-ISO,
anti-dust sensor shake, weather sealing (on non-pro cameras) -- and
all those features would not be innovations, but merely playing
"catch-up".

So, have I missed something? Or are there no innovations needed? No
one finds a need for ECF, for example? No one thinks that on-demand
grid-lines might not be useful? No one thinks that exposure
bracketing with a single press of the shutter button might be cool?

I mean, is it unrealistic to think that innovations might not be
expected from the leader in DSLRs? Or is it more a case of a "job
well done getting to the top let's kick it for a bit"?

Oh, am I bitching? Yeah. Especially since I don't know what the
5DII will bring to the table. But I'm pretty sure that the biggest
"innovation" that Canon will come up with is splitting the 5D into
something like an inexpensive 7D for $1800 that's basically the same
as the current 5D that's a FF 40D and a 3D or 4D with maybe 16 MP, 1D
level AF with fewer AF points. Welcome additions, to be sure, but
not innovative.

Meanwhile, the competition appears to be quite busy.

--
--joe

http://www.josephjamesphotography.com
http://www.pbase.com/joemama/
--
- -
Kabe Luna

http://www.garlandcary.com
 
...which was with value + innovation + performance. Relative to competitors, except at the very highest end of the market, Canon now seems content to be 'merely' the high value choice.
--
- -
Kabe Luna

http://www.garlandcary.com
 

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