EOS450D XSI Focus test

I also noticed that 18-55 is almost as good as 17-55 except for low light and at 55mm. By the way, I did the above comparison at 35mm. You can see that using the live view focus both lenses deliver very similar performance. In addition, 18-55 is very light and perfectly suited for 450 XSI. I find that 17-55 is too bulky, you may as well get 40D with it. I hope that Canon will fix the firmware quickly, otherwise I will have to go for a 3rd party lens. I wonder if anyone has good experience with Tamron 17-50 and 450 XSI.

--
'When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk' Tuco
 
It appears that you did not notice that these lens comparisons are from different cameras with different megapixels. I am not sure about the reliability of any of the comparisons on this site, but I would not spend any time looking at the comparisons unless the camera body is identical.
 
I wonder if anyone
has good experience with Tamron 17-50 and 450 XSI.
Tried 4 copies of tamron 28-75 f/2.8 and they are HORRIBLE for AF. The 17-50 f/2.8 has terrible AF under low light.

You may want to consider Tokina 16-50 f/2.8. The AF may be good. I recently tried out their 11-16 f/2.8 and was very impressed.
 
Everyone knows the 18-55mm isn't that sharp at 55mm... look at the
results for both at 35mm
I feel so sad to be excluded from the rest of the world, because I certainly don't know that my 18-55mm IS is not sharp at 55mm. Neither do my 40D and 450D. It happens that mine (relatively early specimen, purchased about 3 months after 40D was released) is sharp and very usable at f5.6 and esp. f6.3, edge-to-edge. Not L-class but very good indeed.

I can fully accept that there are variations among copies, but such sweeping statements often cause newbies to look at expensive glass without first given the bargain glass a good go.
 
In my experience problems appear with phase detection autofocus with
specific instances of lenses, rather than with all instances of certain models.
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1031&thread=27977738

Maybe the 450D shows up lens errors more than other models?

Test your lenses following an accurate, objective, and repeatable
method like the one I posted, and return any that don't perform
correctly.
Thanks for the link. Good tests.
Thanks. I'm finding it very reliable and accurate for finding problems.
Please note that I do not observe any issues with either lens at close
distance (45 degree test). It seems that the main problem is shooting
at distances over 3 meters.
Under these circumstances, it is very easy to reproduce the results.
I performed this simple test (see the set up below) in my office.

[image snipped]

I took 3 shots in each position under 2 different types of
illumination. In every case ESF 18-55 shots were NOT in focus for AF
with central point while Live View focus was always IN focus. I think
this is very consistent with observations by many other on this forum.
Yes, I agree. My 18-55 is fine up close. I just did a similar test at about 3m, and it takes 5 clicks towards infinity to get the lens in focus. Doesn't seem to matter what focal length I use, which single AF point, or all AF points.
IMHO the problem is related to a bug in Canon's AF firmware, which
generates a false positive AF result or may be sends the wrong timing
signal to the lens motor. In either case, the problem should be
easily fixable in a new firmware release.
I'm not so sure. If that was the case wouldn't it affect all lenses? My 55-250 is absolutely spot on in any mode. That says to me that it's not the camera, it's the individual lens.
 
that you refered to. So does the center point focus accurately ONLY
if the lens opens to 2.8? If it does then both your test lenses do
not open to 2.8. right?
18-55 does not open to 2.8 so I tested them in the same conditions at
4.5. Aparently, Canon uses a second AF sensor for lenses rated less
than 2.8.
You can't do that. Just because you set the Aperture to 4.5 doesn't mean that the camera doesn't tell the lens to be wide open when metering and autofocusing. Its only going to use your set aperture for the actual exposure.

Also for those that are confused about the cross-type center sensor, its ALWAYS a cross type sensor, not just when you use a lens with f/2.8 or better. It just has enhanced precision when using it with such a lens.

Gary
--
http://www.flickr.com/garyshouse/
 
It appears that you did not notice that these lens comparisons are
from different cameras with different megapixels. I am not sure
about the reliability of any of the comparisons on this site, but I
would not spend any time looking at the comparisons unless the camera
body is identical.
Please note that the comparisons posted at the beginning of the thread are from the same 450D XSI camera. I am posting 2 originals and you can see the camera info in the EXIF.

The following is the 100% crop using 450D XSI with 18-55, central point AF mode



The following is the 100% crop using 450D XSI with 17-55, central point AF mode



Since the issue of different cameras was brought up, I decided to repeat the test using 40D and the same 2 lenses: EFS 18-55 IS (kit lens ~$100) and EFS 17-55 IS (~$900)

The following is the 100% crop using 40D with 18-55, central point AF mode



The following is the 100% crop using 40D with 18-55, central point AF mode



The results clearly show that using both cameras the central point AF performs worse for 18-55 than for 17-55. It is known that both lenses should have very similar performance based on the MTF tests (see http://www.photozone.de for example). This fact can be confirmed by using Live view contrast based AF in 450D XSI (see the beginning of the thread).

Therefore, it appears that the differences in the central AF performance are due to the fact that Canon uses a more precise AF for 17-55 than for 18-55. By the way, this is consistent with information that Canon uses an extra array of AF photo-detectors for lenses with F2.8 or faster, like 17-55 (see http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic2/241524 )

Please note that the tests were performed using a single copy of either lens and therefore can not be considered definitive.

On the other hand, these tests can explain the AF frustration that some people on this forum experience. I wonder if anyone else can confirm these results.

--
'When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk' Tuco
 
I wonder if anyone
has good experience with Tamron 17-50 and 450 XSI.
Tried 4 copies of tamron 28-75 f/2.8 and they are HORRIBLE for AF.
The 17-50 f/2.8 has terrible AF under low light.

You may want to consider Tokina 16-50 f/2.8. The AF may be good. I
recently tried out their 11-16 f/2.8 and was very impressed.
Thanks for the advice. It seems that Tokina 16-50 has serious CA issues based on reviews.

I am sticking with Canon 17-55 IS for now despite the weight. It takes some amazing shots.

--
'When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk' Tuco
 
So the bottom line conclusion is that a lens that costs $900 is sharper/better than a lens that costs $100? ;)
 
Stop thinking phase detection is calculate and go. Only the final step is.

You really have to start thinking about it. The camera never knows the distance to focus, it does not know what focal lenght there is or anything. If YOU think the camera actually DOES no EXACT focal length, then explain why just about every lens has a different focal length when you focus close by than when you focus on something far away, and yet the same focal length gets reported. Also explain how you can focus with a TC which does not report itself to the camera.

In short, the camera can NOT EVER tell to move a certain distance, it can never know.

The only thing it CAN do, is tell the lens to move. Then take a reading again. Then tell the lens, based on at least two readings, what percentage of last movement to move to reach focus.

The accuracy of the lens motor/electronics is the culprit here, and that is what needs calibration.

It is pretty frustrating to time and time again read here about how phase detection is just one reading and forget, using ones brain will tell one that it simply does not happen that way.

And yes, it is the AF motor and electronics that make a difference in the AF performance observed between those two lenses/samples.
 
What is the bottom line? I too noticed the OOF issue before I read iabout it in the forum. Does it mean that the camera is worthless and the money went down the drain?

Please .....
 
Not at all, what it means is that probably your kit lens is a little inaccurate, and if it is more than a little, have it calibrated by Canon, or get a different lens.

Test your camera with a different kind of lens, like that 17-55 IS USM, that will determine for sure if the camera body needs calibrating (that CAN happen, with any make) or if it indeed is just the kit lens sample you have that needs some attention.

My 450D focusses good and within reason with 5 lenses I have tried on it.

Try to understand if what you see is you causing AF inaccuracy or if it indeed is the lens, and just have it exchanged or better, have it calibrated. Of course, it can happen that someone is just unhappy with a certain lens model. Then it always is reasonable to find a lens one is happy with.
 
Thanx. Finaly words I can understand. :)
 
Stop thinking phase detection is calculate and go. Only the final
step is.
Why not? Can you point to some reference that describes this?
The camera never knows the distance to focus,
It does, sorta. The amount of phase difference is proportional to the amount and direction to change focus.
The only thing it CAN do, is tell the lens to move.
Correct. The issue is what it tells the lens. It tells the lens "move X units forward/back" as calculated from the phase difference. The lens has a lookup table that converts X units into the correct amount of focus movement.
Then take a reading again. Then tell the lens, based on at least two readings,
what percentage of last movement to move to reach focus.
No, most of the time the lens only moves once. There are two cases where it will move more than once:

a) the lens needs to move quickly and then stop. If the motor is a blt sloppy, it will may over/under shoot the intended position. The lens realizes this and does a second smaller movement to adjust.

b) the focus system does not have a high confidence focus solution. It may either rack the lens in/out to see if it can find a starting point or move to it's best estimate and try again. This is when a lens "hunts."
The accuracy of the lens motor/electronics is the culprit here, and
that is what needs calibration.
What is changed for calibration is the internal lookup table that maps camera units to lens focus units. This adjusts for minor variations in the lens mechanics.
It is pretty frustrating to time and time again read here about how
phase detection is just one reading and forget, using ones brain will
tell one that it simply does not happen that way.
Better than using your brain is to look at what has been written about such systems. The whole point of the "phase" in phase AF that it works like a split image range finder. The reason high-precision sensors are higher precision is that they have a longer baseline. This is also why they need wide aperture lenses or they black out.

--
Erik
 
Where do you get that stuff about a look up table from?

Do you realize what a ridiculously huge look up table one would need with a zoom lens?
Show the your documentation about look up tables used in AF lenses.

And who needs to look up? The camera NEVER can say move x amount of units, when the camera does NOT know what units the particular lens uses, and does NOT know what focal length we actually are using. And believe me, the camera does NOT know the focal length.

So... if the camera does not know distance (it just does not know, do you understand that the camera can not know distance... a very important point). It does not know anything, not the real focal length, nothing at all.

And you really will NEED to know the exact focal length to know what amount once would move to reach focus. And even if the camera could know, how does it tell the lens how many units to move? Only the lens would know what an unit means.

Only the lens, and the lens can't get the distance from the camera, because the camera does not know the distance. So, nothing to look up either.

If you will want to keep contending it, then explain just that. How can the camera see distance. It can not. Focal length is unknown. Put an extender on a lens, and realize that the camera REALLY does not know what focal length it is dealing with, so determining anything about distance is impossible.
 
Where do you get that stuff about a look up table from?
Do you realize what a ridiculously huge look up table one would need
with a zoom lens?
Show the your documentation about look up tables used in AF lenses.

And who needs to look up? The camera NEVER can say move x amount of
units, when the camera does NOT know what units the particular lens
uses, and does NOT know what focal length we actually are using. And
believe me, the camera does NOT know the focal length.

So... if the camera does not know distance (it just does not know, do
you understand that the camera can not know distance... a very
important point). It does not know anything, not the real focal
length, nothing at all.
And you really will NEED to know the exact focal length to know what
amount once would move to reach focus. And even if the camera could
know, how does it tell the lens how many units to move? Only the lens
would know what an unit means.
Only the lens, and the lens can't get the distance from the camera,
because the camera does not know the distance. So, nothing to look up
either.

If you will want to keep contending it, then explain just that. How
can the camera see distance. It can not. Focal length is unknown. Put
an extender on a lens, and realize that the camera REALLY does not
know what focal length it is dealing with, so determining anything
about distance is impossible.
Hmmm

1. The look up table doesn't need to be ridiculously large. What is ridiculously large anyway?

2. The camera just needs to report the sign and magnitude of the phase difference it sees - the lens knows all about itself and can then figure out how many degrees to turn clockwise or anticlockwise.

3. Why wouldn't the extender introduce itself to the camera and lens when it's fitted?

I'm not saying that you're wrong about the closed loop versus open loop focussing (I'm surprised that it could be open loop), but your arguments are rather easy to refute.
 
1. Ridiculously large means: knowing from every very very small steps in focus. If you expect a lens to focus up to 3 mm precise at 3 meters distance, and 1 mm at for instance 30 cm distance, imagine what a ridiculous amount of "x amount of units" need to be stored. And that is just for one focal length. Now add an about infinite amount of zoom steps to it.
Just not going to happen.

2. So the lens also needs to know all that? What kind of computing power do you imagine a lens to have? And when were AF lenses introduced? 1987 for Canon EOS?

What kind of computer did you have? What did eeproms look like back then? How would all this intelligence be achieved in lenses back then?

3. Canon Extenders do tell the camera (not the lens) they are there. The camera reacts by refusing to use AF when the resulting f-stop exceeds f5.6.

With other tele converters, like the cheap ones from Soligor, Kenko, Tamron, all the extenders do is route through the electrical contacts. The camera does NOT know the new focus length, does not know at what distance the focussed point is, does not know the changed f-stop. The lens does not know of the existence of the TC either.

Put your lens in manual focus. Turn as the focus manually. Notice how the phase detection lets you know when it sees you achieve focus. Now tell me the AF system only looked once, then told you how much to turn and just let you be. It just does not happen. Phase detection does not calculate the distance, in an SLR. If tells the lens to move, checks again, then tells the lens the percentage of last movement to move to sort of achieve focus lock. Nothing to do with look up tables, or advanced computing power in lenses.
Just:

Move till the phase detect gets close to focus (else it just sees blur). To know how when that is, focus keeps getting checked. If the steps a lens makes overshoots the close to focus that the phase detect needs, you have a hunting lens.

Now if the phase detect gets two readings where it actually CAN detect edges/contrast (it is close to focus already and checked that), it then calculates from the last movement the percentage of the last step the final step has to make.
And this final step is the source of most back and front focus cases.

And about aperture f2.8 mentioned above, the only reason f2.8 gets to use a more precise sensor is because f2.8 sort of guarantees a certain amount of light. It is an arbitrary choice, just like f5.6 for AF or no AF is an arbitrary choice.
 
1. Ridiculously large means: knowing from every very very small steps
in focus. If you expect a lens to focus up to 3 mm precise at 3
meters distance, and 1 mm at for instance 30 cm distance, imagine
what a ridiculous amount of "x amount of units" need to be stored.
And that is just for one focal length. Now add an about infinite
amount of zoom steps to it.
Just not going to happen.

2. So the lens also needs to know all that? What kind of computing
power do you imagine a lens to have? And when were AF lenses
introduced? 1987 for Canon EOS?
What kind of computer did you have? What did eeproms look like back
then? How would all this intelligence be achieved in lenses back then?

3. Canon Extenders do tell the camera (not the lens) they are there.
The camera reacts by refusing to use AF when the resulting f-stop
exceeds f5.6.
With other tele converters, like the cheap ones from Soligor, Kenko,
Tamron, all the extenders do is route through the electrical
contacts. The camera does NOT know the new focus length, does not
know at what distance the focussed point is, does not know the
changed f-stop. The lens does not know of the existence of the TC
either.

Put your lens in manual focus. Turn as the focus manually. Notice how
the phase detection lets you know when it sees you achieve focus. Now
tell me the AF system only looked once, then told you how much to
turn and just let you be. It just does not happen. Phase detection
does not calculate the distance, in an SLR. If tells the lens to
move, checks again, then tells the lens the percentage of last
movement to move to sort of achieve focus lock. Nothing to do with
look up tables, or advanced computing power in lenses.
Just:
Move till the phase detect gets close to focus (else it just sees
blur). To know how when that is, focus keeps getting checked. If the
steps a lens makes overshoots the close to focus that the phase
detect needs, you have a hunting lens.
Now if the phase detect gets two readings where it actually CAN
detect edges/contrast (it is close to focus already and checked
that), it then calculates from the last movement the percentage of
the last step the final step has to make.
And this final step is the source of most back and front focus cases.

And about aperture f2.8 mentioned above, the only reason f2.8 gets to
use a more precise sensor is because f2.8 sort of guarantees a
certain amount of light. It is an arbitrary choice, just like f5.6
for AF or no AF is an arbitrary choice.
Hi

So having thought about it for a bit longer:

1. You're quoting an accuracy value for the lens at 30cm, 3m etc. and saying that there are lots of other distances so that's a big look up table. Why would the lens need a big look up table of accuracy values? That's got nothing to do with being in focus. Does it even need a look up table. The camera could tells the lens that it is so many units out of phase, and the lens converts that phase difference into degrees to rotate by using some constant scaling factor. I imagine there is a look up table though.

With the EF(S) lenses I've used, focus doesn't change with zoom and you can demonstrate that one for yourself pretty easily on the MF setting and lighting up the focus indicator the whole way through the zoom range without touching teh focus dial. Therefore, if the look up table really exists then it doesn't need to consider zoom, and your look up table is suddenly looking a lot less infinite. If the look up table exists, then given that something the kit lens focuses through about 50 degrees, 200 points is more than enough to calibrate it. Not that big really is it? Not really that intelligent is it.

2. Again what exactly is it that you think the lens needs to know. All it needs is a conversion of phase difference units as measured by the camera into the degrees rotation used by the lens. Even in 1987, a lens would have been capable of multiplication if it was just a scaling factor. I don't think anyone ever claimed there was a dual core Pentium in there. if it's a look up table approach then that's a pretty stupid lens too.

3. If the zoom doesn't impact the focus, then neither do teleconverters.

The manual focus indication is interesting and it's the only point you make that suggests the possibility of a closed loop in AF mode. The use of closed loop in MF mode doesn't prove it, but suggests the possibility.

The claim that the f2.8 increased AF sensitivity is arbitrary doesn't stack up either. You get the increased sensitivity whatever the ambient light, so the physical explanation of the longer baseline sensor operating with the bigger aperture is more plausible. Otherwise why not activate the increased sensitivity when ever the light is good enough, whatever the minimum aperture? Equally an aperture greater than f5.6 may black out parts of the regular sensor, hence the reason why AF stops altogether?

I'm still not convinced one way or another by the open loop versus closed loops, but the arguments of look table complexity and supercomputing lenses just don't cut it with me. Sorry.

If there isn't a look up table, then what do all these "re-calibrated" lenses really undergo when they get sent to the service centre?
 

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