Who uses Highlight Tone Priority?

HTP is not a "miracle cure" that will make up for otherwise poorly
exposed photographs - we still have to do our part.
Yes, we do.
With all due respect, it sounds like:

a) you didn't expose your image properly; and
You're right.
b) you might have unrealistic expectations of what HTP can do for you.
Actually, I had no expectations. I've only owned my DSLR for four weeks and the lens I was using for about two weeks. I'm trying to educate myself and part of that is seeking input from those more familiar with features than I.
A backlit image and HTP sounds like a guarantee of noise in the
shadows if you then have to drag the dark areas back up in PP because
you didn't meter properly and maybe add positive EC at the time you
took the shot.
You're right about all these things too. If I had more experience with a DSLR, I may have been better prepared. I am happy with the shot and, to me honest, the noise didn't bother me until participants pointed it out in another forum. :)

Saying all this, I see others in this thread express caution about using the HTP feature. Like all things in photography, it's knowing when and when not to use a particular setting. I just know I will not leave HTP on by default. I have taken some test shots and do recognize some of its benefits, though.

I appreciate your feedback!

--
gail ~ http://www.pbase.com/gailb

My digital camera BLOGs: Canon XSi, S2, SD700; Pany FZ18, TZ3; Fuji F20; Nikon 5400 http://www.digicamhelp.com/camera-logs/index.php
 
I agree with David.

I shoot RAW and shoot to the right. And this means that effectively, I'm always implementing the same exposure as I would hope to be with HTP enabled. This is because I strive to make the brightest tone that I want to "preserve" end up being captured with a value that is just at the threshold of true RAW clipping. And I'd want to do the same thing if I was shooting with HTP enabled too.

Then, when I process the RAWs, if I want to raise the brightness in the shadow areas, I simply adjust the curve to get that (with the obvious "expense" of having increased noise in those areas).

So this is just the same as what I'd have gotten had I shot with HTP enabled except that doing it my way, I am not being "mislead" by what amounts to bogus metering. So to me, it's less confusing to just shoot in RAW and expose so that the highlights that I want to preserve are just barely below clipping. Since this is what I always try to do anyhow, it's easier for me.

To me, HTP would only be useful if I was shooting in JPG mode in the camera. This is because when you shoot in-camera JPGs, you don't have any ability to apply an adjusted tone curve shape during the RAW conversion. Using HTP gives you a second tone curve choice.

But as David points out, you get only that one possible extra curve. So it's kind of a "blunt instrument" compared to what you have possible if you just shoot RAW and expose for what you want.

And along with that, you also have to deal with the metering lying to you by a stop. This is meant to "help" in cases where your standard metering would have blown out (by one stop) the brightest highlights.

But to me, it ends up being kind of confusing because if I use it, I have to NOT shoot to the right the same way I usually would. Instead, I've got to keep in mind that things are being underexposed by a full stop versus what I've become accustomed to. And that is somewhat more "work" for me than just doing what I usually do.

So for me, the short answer is:

No. I don't use HTP because I shoot in RAW and "shoot to the right", metering for the highlights.

--
Jim H.
 
So don't feel at all bad about having less than ideal experiences with it.

When this feature was first announced, there was a lot of speculation about what it might do. Then, when it finally came out on the 40D, we got to test it.

Those tests proved what it actually does, and knowing what it really does is the key to understanding if, when, and how to use it to get better shots.

All that HTP actually does is to shoot at one full ISO step below what you and the camera's metering think you're shooting at. So what it does is to purposely underexpose everything by one stop.

When you shoot at ISO 2oo (HTP enabled), you're really metering for ISO 200, but shooting at ISO 100. And this is why there is no ISO 1oo with HTP enabled.

Then, since you've underexposed by a stop, the in-camera RAW-to-JPG processing or the out of camera RAW processing IF you use Canon's DPP or RIT for that processing, will apply a special tone curve when the file is processed. That tone curve boosts the shadows and mid-tones by one full stop but it "rolls off" at the high end such that the brighter tones are "compressed" somewhat such that at the brightest tones, you end up with one stop of "highlight protection".

So when you shoot with HPT enabled, you've already underexposed by a full stop and then boosted the shadows by a stop to compensate. Therefore, if you do any more boosting of brightness, the shadows will REALLY become noisy. Any boosting of brightnesses in post processing brings out noise, and you've already suffered from a full stop of that boosting when you use HTP.

So if you won't be doing any further boosting of shadow brightness, you may not notice the extra noise. One stop is about the limit of keeping things acceptable. But if you do end up raising the brightness even more, then you will probably really start to see the noise.

So HTP is kind of a sneaky trick. And it can be useful if we know what it's doing to us. But it can cause problems if the way it works is not understood. And Canon purposely avoids telling us how it works as if it was some deep dark secret. I guess they want us to believe that it magically gives us more dynamic range in the capture. But it does not. It just underexposes by a stop and then boosts the lower tones when the data is processed, resulting in a one stop compression.

--
Jim H.
 
Thank you SO much for the explanation. If you don't mind, I have two other questions.

There will be noise in darker areas whether or not I use HTP. What I don't understand is if using HTP would cause the noise to be worse than it would ordinarily be if HTP was disabled.

Also, the term "shoot to the right" is new to me; I have seen it mentioned once elsewhere but I don't quite get it. To the right of what, the histogram?

This thread has been an interesting read, I will reread it a number of times and, hopefully, in time some of the things I don't fully grasp will make more sense.

--
gail ~ http://www.pbase.com/gailb

My digital camera BLOGs: Canon XSi, S2, SD700; Pany FZ18, TZ3; Fuji F20; Nikon 5400 http://www.digicamhelp.com/camera-logs/index.php
 
This is one of those situations where the actual concepts are fairly straightforward, but explaining them can be difficult, and thus understanding them can be a challenge.

The reason why using HTP causes greater noise in the shadow areas is because a key part of the whole HTP "system" is a numerical "boost" of the brightness in the shadow areas when the image is processed. This boost is necessary to make up for the inherent underexposure that we get when capturing while in HTP mode.

First, it's good to understand that the root cause of almost all noise complaints with DSLRs is underexposure followed by "brightening" of the image numerically, in the computer, to compensate for that underexposure.

I think of this the same way as making an audio recording. If you remember making actual tape audio recordings, you'll remember that tape sounded very good, but if you turned up the volume too high, you started to hear a lot of "tape hiss". So if you recorded the signal onto the tape too low, then you'd be forced to turn up the volume very high on playback, and that meant that you'd hear a lot of tape hiss.

Digital camera noise can be a lot like audio noise. If we record "too soft" and have to make up for that by turning up the gain when we play it back, then the noise (that's really always there), gets amplified more, and we see it as noise in the image.

Underexposing is the equivalent of recording too softly. To compensate, we must turn up the gain later, and that reveals the noise that's always present. It just makes it more visible.

So this is why underexposing, and then compensating by turning up the brightness in post processing, makes the noise so bad. In effect, turning up the brightness is what brings out the noise. And underexposure is what makes us need to turn up the brightness.

Ideally, we would not need to do any adjustment of the brightness of an image when we process it. And thus, the noise that is always there would not be objectionable. But if we underexpose, then we must turn up the "gain", and that turns up the "noise" right along with the "signal".

OK, so when we shoot with HTP enabled, the camera is purposely underexposing the entire shot by one stop. Then, the HTP processing that goes along with it turns up the gain by one stop for the shadow and mid-tone areas. The gain is progressively "rolled off" as we get to brighter and brighter areas of the image such that by the time we're at the brightest areas, there is no extra gain at all.

Thus, with HTP mode, we will always have a full stop of extra noise in the shadows of the image to begin with. And any further increasing of the brightness when we process the image will just make it worse.

"Shooting to the right" is a technique used when shooting in RAW mode. It's not really useful for JPG shooting.

You are correct. It means to shoot so that the brightest highlights of interest are just "kissing" the right edge of the histogram. We don't actually have a true RAW histogram, though, so that adds extra complexity, but we'll ignore that for now.

The idea of "shooting to the right" is that we maximize the dynamic range of the capture system by making sure that the brightest areas of interest are recorded at the very top of the possible range of recorded brightness values. That way, we use the full range of the system and don't waste any space at the top end.

Since we're shooting in RAW, it doesn't matter if the image was intended to be a "low key" shot with no bright highlights at all because we can simply turn the brightness down when we process the RAW. Turning the brightness down has no bad effects (unlike turning the brightness up). So in all cases, if we've "shot to the right" correctly, we'll end up with the best possible dynamic range, with best shadow detail and lowest possible noise in the final image.

Shooting to the right optimizes our use of the capture system by fully exploiting its entire range of possible number-to-brightness assignments.

--
Jim H.
 
That was the best explantion of that I have seen, and it all made perfect sense (even to me). I have shot to the right for a while, but have never had the advantages explained so well. Are you a teacher? If not, you sure could be. You do a great job of taking a complex ideas and putting it into plain English. Thanks again.
--
steve
Please visit my galleries at:
http://www.pbase.com/spatterson
 
Thanks for the explanation Jim. Just one question. Does the Picture Style and the settings for sharpness, contrast, saturation end color tone (I use Natural 0/-3/-1/0) still work when HTP is enabled?

And btw, I'm 'shooting to the right' too, and I shoot JPEG only :) Wouldn't it be possible to create a new 'HTP-Picture Style', using the Picture Style Editor? That would be much less confusing.
 
... HTP is another one of those "automatic" things that the 40D, and many
others, can do that I think are better handled with an understanding
of how digital photography and your camera work, along with the
controls to manage things...
for sure you can spot meter your scene carefully to obtain perfect exposure - if you have the time to do ;-)

but if you have to capture lots of shots under changing bright conditions just in seconds you need a "solid" helper protecting your highlights... HTP is one of those and for sure it's no "automatic" consume toy... ;-)

nw42
 
... HTP is another one of those "automatic" things that the 40D, and many
others, can do that I think are better handled with an understanding
of how digital photography and your camera work, along with the
controls to manage things...
for sure you can spot meter your scene carefully to obtain perfect
exposure - if you have the time to do ;-)

but if you have to capture lots of shots under changing bright
conditions just in seconds you need a "solid" helper protecting your
highlights... HTP is one of those and for sure it's no "automatic"
consume toy... ;-)

nw42
If you understand how digital photography and your camera work, and you have the controls where you need them, the more difficult the lighting, the more often it changes, the more you should "manage" your own exposure decisions.

How do you think anyone ever photographed a wedding before HTP?

The camera is fundamentally stupid. It tries very hard to please, but there are times when some highlights should be blown for correct exposure, and there are times when the highlights must not be blown. I know the difference, and I own xxD's rather than the xxxD's precisely because the camera can be operated fast enough to allow ME to make the choices when I think the camera will make mistakes.

The major difference between the xxD and the xxxD cameras is just that kind of control. Many questions on forums ask about image quality difference between the two types, and there really isn't any. The difference lies in the ability to operate them quickly and accurately. People who don't understand that difference will be well served with the xxxD line.

HTP is just like the other "automatic" modes with symbols on them. They work pretty well, considering, but I never use them.

--
Nothing is enough for the man to whom nothing is enough.
 
I tried HTP for whitewater photography. It was one of the reasons I bought a 40D. It made the images look unnatural, lifeless and added noise in the shadows.
 
OK, so when we shoot with HTP enabled, the camera is purposely
underexposing the entire shot by one stop.
If this is correct, then I think I was misunderstanding what HTP does. I thought that the camera would only underexpose (shift into a one-stop under-exposure), when it detected some whites that would blow out. So if you had already exposed it correctly (to not blow out the whites), it would not "shift" and give you the actual exposure (ISO) that you had set.

So are you saying that even if you underexpose purposely, it would still add another stop of under-exposure in addition to what you might give it?
--
  • markE
http://www.wingsoflight.com

'Good street/wildlife photography is a controlled accident,
a vision of preparation and surrender materialized.'

 
I like it for action & sunlight, so basicly sports or outdoor performances & moving subjects under sunlight.
--
Alex Q
 
I tried HTP for whitewater photography. It was one of the reasons I
bought a 40D. It made the images look unnatural, lifeless and added
noise in the shadows.
Same here...

I feel It does reduce clipping of highlights but it also kills the overall image quality. (IMHO) And the added noise made sharpening difficult. I have no noise removal software. My 20D shots looked much better, I was not a happy camper despite the fact that I love every other aspect of the 40D.

A lot bigger learning curve from 20D to 40D than expected and some operator error in my case I'll admit...

Now I am playing with just dialing back the contrast in those situations, for me that seems to do the trick. I'm quite pleased with the results now but still tweaking.

--
TD...Just another dumb a** green newbie!
FCAS charter member & Pbase supporter
http://www.pbase.com/td2/root
 
Using HTP mode, the camera simply shoots at a full ISO stop lower than what you and the camera's metering "think" it's shooting at. Thus, the underexposure is forced no matter what. The only way to get around it would be to purposely overexpose by a stop (based on the metering).

It's really quite a simple system with no variation based on any kind of metering or analysis of the exposure. It just forces you to protect the highlights by shooting at a lower ISO than you think you're shooting at.

--
Jim H.
 
Using HTP as Canon intended only compresses the highlights (tones above app. 190 in the histogram), but if you 'cheat' the camera a little, then HTP can actually become a very useful 'HDR Picture Style'.

The combination of HTP enabled and a Picture Style with low contrast (I use Neutral with the settings 0,-4,-1,0) gives you a resulting tonecurve that lifts the shadows and midtones, much like Nikon's 'D-lightening' or Sony's 'DRO'.

In normal mode (without HTP) you meter the contrasty scene to the right, protecting the highlights, and then, when HTP is enabled, you purposely overexpose by 2/3 stops. Not by a whole stop as the theory says, that seems to be to much.

It's a bit tricky and confusing, but it works pretty good. The easiest thing might be to create a 'Camera User Setting' (C1-C3) with HTP enabled and a suitable low-contrast Picture Style. Then you just have to get the exposure right (+2/3 stops) when you switch over to 'HTP/HDR'.

And of course using RAW (without HTP) and a appropriate tonecurve in the conversion is even better. Then you might be able to overexpose the shot and recover the highlights in the conversion, which is helpful to avoid noise when lifting the shadows.
 
First of all, thank you your response to my earlier post. And after reading this well-explained post of yours, I am in complete agreement with you. I shoot RAW, and to the right, and it seems much easier to me if I just stick with that method and don't be concerned with using HTP.

Thanks again for you help.
--
  • markE
http://www.wingsoflight.com

'Good street/wildlife photography is a controlled accident,
a vision of preparation and surrender materialized.'

 

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