Full Fame Digital Compact!

Having been around long enough to see absolutes in the science of medicine repeatedly give way to refinements and better understanding of things, I have a strong preference for keeping an open mind.

The culture of this forum is extremely dichotomous. People here draw bright lines dividing participants in these discussions into two camps (those who are right and those who aren't). They then go further and start taunting those who do not share their opinions with cracks about how they are uninformed, stupid, backward, crazy, even ill intentioned.

I shared the article about discovering something that doesn't completely square with Einstein's predictions as an illustration of how scientific knowledge remains open to revision as new discoveries are made. We arrived at the science of today with theories that seemed to best predict how things behave. When we can predict successfully how things will behave, we feel that we have a pretty good theory. That is, until the next discovery that emerges and challenges the predictive value of the theory. It seemed to me that the arguers above were asserting absolute certainty about scientific theory. The absence of any nod to uncertainty** about what the future may bring in terms of our understanding of radiant energy, that strikes me as hubris.
 
Pictures are already being taken without any light. No light
whatsoever. And those pictures are quite good. In fact, the devices
that take those pictures can see right through you.
They generate their own invisible light.

--
John

 
The absence of any nod to uncertainty** about what the
future may bring in terms of our understanding of radiant energy,
that strikes me as hubris.
Remember, the person starting this subthread said that future small sensor cameras may outperform current large-sensor cameras in ALL respects.

If you're talking about collecting photons in available light at a given ISO, that is NOT possible. If a future small sensor captured every photon of visible light, it would still capture less than today's 36x24mm sensor. There is no reason to believe that there is some totally analog, noiseless signal accompanying these finite photons that we have yet to detect. It's just a mental construct, like heaven, deities, unicorns, platonic chairs, etc.

Supplying our own light is another subject entirely.

--
John

 
" you're simply full of it.
Speaking of ignorant.
now you're getting your a$$ kicked.
if someone breaks the laws of physics and optics, what is the punishment?
smartass jerk
You're a total flop
arrogant turd."

--

'I believe in the real things in life; a clean windshield, a full tank of gas, and a shoe shine.' - Rev. Rod Flash, of the Church of the Presumptuous Assumption & Blinding Light.
 
I think it's the difference between digital and film, the physics are
not the same. The small lens on those older cameras will not work on
a digital compact the same way.
Personally I think that much of the perceived quality of the old film
compacts was down to the fact that we didn't enlarge the results
anything like as much as we do with digital captures. Viewing a 100%
crop from a 12M pixel digital is like looking closely at a 48x32"
print. I don't know about you, but I never used to print much above
8x10" from 35mm.
You never shot slide film with compacts? In any case, the optics of a good film compact were good enough for enlargements bigger than 8x10", especially if you were willing to tolerate some softening towards the corners and avoided shooting wide open. Some softness in the corners is usually not critical for real life photography in any case.

By the way, the Olympus Stylus and Yashica T series were not the best film compacts by any means. They had the best price-to-performance ratio, but they only featured relatively inexpensive four element Tessar type lenses. The really good film compacts such as the Contax T, Nikon 28/35Ti, Konica Hexar AF, Leicas etc. had more complex wide angle lenses instead of short focal length Tessars.
The rest of the difference is mechanics rather than physics. Digital
sensors currently have metal features built in front of the
photosensitive part, resulting in tunnel like views from each pixel,
best suited to telecentric lenses. An advance in fabrication could
move the metal layers behind the photosites and remove that
requirement.
True, but currently such improvements only exist in the lab, so it will take several years before reasonable size full frame compacts will be feasible.
 
This is baloney. It doesn't even consider yesterday, let alone
tomorrow and the only reason why an FF compact is not made today is
that there isn't enough market for it.
Yes, because it would either be huge or have very slow lens. There is no market for a fixed prime lens camera much larger than the DP1 or a camera with a lens slower than F/4.
So the answer to the guess could be Sigma. They are already committed
to marching to their own drum.
Well, Ricoh could be as good or even better bet, since they don't make DSLRs at all. It's a shame Konica no longer exists as an independent company. If it did, they probably would have made an APS-C compact earlier than Sigma. And it would have been better than the DP1...
 
Good points. I never said it is certain that any of the things I mentioned are going to be developed. I'm only saying it's possible. Certainty will come into play if and when those things become reality.
Having been around long enough to see absolutes in the science of
medicine repeatedly give way to refinements and better understanding
of things, I have a strong preference for keeping an open mind.

The culture of this forum is extremely dichotomous. People here draw
bright lines dividing participants in these discussions into two
camps (those who are right and those who aren't). They then go
further and start taunting those who do not share their opinions with
cracks about how they are uninformed, stupid, backward, crazy, even
ill intentioned.

I shared the article about discovering something that doesn't
completely square with Einstein's predictions as an illustration of
how scientific knowledge remains open to revision as new discoveries
are made. We arrived at the science of today with theories that
seemed to best predict how things behave. When we can predict
successfully how things will behave, we feel that we have a pretty
good theory. That is, until the next discovery that emerges and
challenges the predictive value of the theory. It seemed to me that
the arguers above were asserting absolute certainty about scientific
theory. The absence of any nod to uncertainty** about what the
future may bring in terms of our understanding of radiant energy,
that strikes me as hubris.
 
Well, this may not be what you're thinking of, and I don't know what the size of the sensor is, but it certainly has a lot of pixels and they somehow managed to use a small lens. If nothing else, it looks interesting.

http://www.primidi.com/2003/03/19.html
Lets make a guess, who will come up will a Digital Full Frame Compact
First?
I'm sure it very possible, but its a question on why and when.
 
Pictures are already being taken without any light. No light
whatsoever. And those pictures are quite good. In fact, the devices
that take those pictures can see right through you.
They generate their own invisible light.
What are you talking about?
X-Ray machines and radar produce X-rays and radio waves, respectively, and create images. In the case of X-Ray machines, the film is behind the emitter, and dense tissue absorbs the X-rays (high-energy light) creating a negative on the film. In the case of radar, refelcted radio waves (low-energy light) are recorded and create an image much as using a flash on a camera.

--
--joe

http://www.josephjamesphotography.com
http://www.pbase.com/joemama/
 
You're a total flop as a comedian joe, but a major success as an
arrogant turd.
Whereas you're arrogant and ignorant. So, even if you're
assessment of me was accurate, I still come out ahead.
A corollary to the 'equivalence' essay?
Why don't you go take some decent pics, post them, and start threads
on that, rather than keep coming back with your attitude?
Those were the days.

--
-CW
 
You're a total flop as a comedian joe, but a major success as an
arrogant turd.
Whereas you're arrogant and ignorant. So, even if you're
assessment of me was accurate, I still come out ahead.
A corollary to the 'equivalence' essay?
Why don't you go take some decent pics, post them, and start threads
on that, rather than keep coming back with your attitude?
Those were the days.

--
-CW
Excellent observation, and hilarious too. :)
 
Why don't you go take some decent pics, post them, and start threads
on that, rather than keep coming back with your attitude?
Excellent observation, and hilarious too. :)
So where's your pic, then? I mean, you did say it was an "excellent observation", didn't you? Here's another one from me (another deep DOF from a compact):

Canon G1 @ 7mm, f / 2 (35mm, f / 9.7), 1/6, ISO 50

http://www.pbase.com/joemama/image/31244951



--
--joe

http://www.josephjamesphotography.com
http://www.pbase.com/joemama/
 
I mean, look how difficult it was to put an APS-C sensor in a
compact! Many delays in production, slow write times, a 28 mm f4
lens...full frame will probably never be put into a compact.
--
and yet since the days of film, compacts had a full sensor!
one wonders what is so wrong with digital full size sensors
that they can't be put in a compact camera body...
 
Say, how about you post a pic showing me how it's done?
Why? You just did.
Apologies for having been unclear. I meant post a better pic without the horrible flaws of my pic. Something like this:

Canon 5D + 200mm / 2.8L @ f / 5.6, 1/1600, ISO 100

http://www.pbase.com/joemama/image/55630417



Or am I still missing the mark?

--
--joe

http://www.josephjamesphotography.com
http://www.pbase.com/joemama/
 

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