Nikon: out-of-control design

Someone had a bad trip at Nikon. The idea to put commands in the 5700 in three different areas, with similar buttons doing different things, suggests there is a current of ergonomical madness between digicam designers. I suggest there is still room on the button to put some options (like Nice boy/nice girl/ugly aunt/horrible mother-in-law selector). Could someone explain to Nikon that at least sometimes we shoot photos, and do not go up and down menus? The thing also suggests we are going to have a single Big Brother camera in each class, with the manufacturers providing lens, software and nameplate. I think I'll buy that Voigtlander RF.

Fabio

How is it any different to a D-SLR? You have buttons on the lens, front of the camera, top and rear.

The 5700 is no different to many other SLR-Like prosumer cameras announced in that respect.

Lastly, your comment about 'we don't want to go up and down menus' directly contradicts your complaint.

Fabio said:

Someone had a bad trip at Nikon. The idea to put commands in the
5700 in three different areas, with similar buttons doing different
things, suggests there is a current of ergonomical madness between
digicam designers. I suggest there is still room on the button to
put some options (like Nice boy/nice girl/ugly aunt/horrible
mother-in-law selector). Could someone explain to Nikon that at
least sometimes we shoot photos, and do not go up and down menus?
The thing also suggests we are going to have a single Big Brother
camera in each class, with the manufacturers providing lens,
software and nameplate. I think I'll buy that Voigtlander RF.

Fabio

Click to expand...

--
Phil Askey
Editor / Owner, dpreview.com

I wonder how he menus layout compare to the fuji 6900, or S602...

I think what it suggests really, is that its going to be just one more generation we'll (or I'll) have to wait for a more affordable 'real' digi-slr. Although the camera does sound exciting, it's just another glorified point and shoot. Each generation this year is bringing me closer to a used D-30, or buying my Elan IIe back from the camera shop.

Member said:

How is it any different to a D-SLR? You have buttons on the lens,
front of the camera, top and rear.

The 5700 is no different to many other SLR-Like prosumer cameras
announced in that respect.

Lastly, your comment about 'we don't want to go up and down menus'
directly contradicts your complaint.

Fabio said:

Someone had a bad trip at Nikon. The idea to put commands in the
5700 in three different areas, with similar buttons doing different
things, suggests there is a current of ergonomical madness between
digicam designers. I suggest there is still room on the button to
put some options (like Nice boy/nice girl/ugly aunt/horrible
mother-in-law selector). Could someone explain to Nikon that at
least sometimes we shoot photos, and do not go up and down menus?
The thing also suggests we are going to have a single Big Brother
camera in each class, with the manufacturers providing lens,
software and nameplate. I think I'll buy that Voigtlander RF.

Fabio

Click to expand...

--
Phil Askey
Editor / Owner, dpreview.com

Click to expand...

--
http://www.angelfire.com/film/jhazard/
http://www.pbase.com/jhazard

Phil Askey said:

How is it any different to a D-SLR? You have buttons on the lens,
front of the camera, top and rear.

Click to expand...

Yes, but a D-SLR is an adaptive design, with obvious compromises. 5700 is a new design

Member said:

The 5700 is no different to many other SLR-Like prosumer cameras
announced in that respect.

Click to expand...

I agree on this. It's the whole machine-human interface that has gone mad, with no hierarchical sense in commands. The industry seems not to know anymore who the consumer is: so they try to deliver for everybody, from the point-and-shooter to the pro. But that's impossible.

Regards

Fabio

Actually, this a shot across the bows, fired at the D7i, the Fuji,
and the upcoming everyone hopes upgrade for the Pro90.
It isn't designed to fit a certain consumer. It is designed to
compete in a camera class that has been successful as of late.
Where is the 5mp UZI??????

Fabio said:

Phil Askey said:

How is it any different to a D-SLR? You have buttons on the lens,
front of the camera, top and rear.

Click to expand...

Yes, but a D-SLR is an adaptive design, with obvious compromises.
5700 is a new design

Fabio Amodeo said:

The 5700 is no different to many other SLR-Like prosumer cameras
announced in that respect.

Click to expand...

I agree on this. It's the whole machine-human interface that has
gone mad, with no hierarchical sense in commands. The industry
seems not to know anymore who the consumer is: so they try to
deliver for everybody, from the point-and-shooter to the pro. But
that's impossible.

Regards

Fabio

Click to expand...

Makes me wish that Apple's interface group (the folks who gave us iPod, iTunes, the Mac OS, etc, etc) could sub-contract out to the camera manufacturers...

As an Oly E-10 owner I can say that the push and turn setup works great. You don't have to go into the menus for 90% of the settings you would ever change. Settings don't get changed by an accidental press. The buttons are placed in areas that your hand naturally rests on. Once you get the hang of it, you can change settings while not even looking at the buttons. It looks like the Nikon works the same way.

Fabio said:

I think I'll buy that Voigtlander RF.

Fabio

Click to expand...

For the past two years I've been shooting digital exclusively (Oly 2020, C2500l, E100Rs). A few months ago I decided to take an analog break from digital and bought a Voigtlander Bessa L with a 15mm and 25mm lenses. The Bessa L is really a back to basics camera NO range finder, NO viewfinder but it DOES have a TTL light meter! One uses specific viewfinders for these two very, very, wide lenses which clip into the accessory show. Manual focusing works fine with the huge depth of field of these two lenses. I started to really miss wide angles as digital cameras really don't offer anything wider than 28mm at that mostly with large accessory lenses attached to the front.

The voigtlander has been a pleasure to use -- the viewfinders are clear, bright -- as if nothing is between me and the view. Needless to say the shutter response is great. It is a drag that I can't see the shots right then but must wait a few hours from the local "1-hr" shop. It's been fun and the shots really great. The 15mm is a rectangular lens with an unbelievably wide view-- 110 degrees!!!! !!!!!

With the release of the Bessa R2, the Bessa R can be had for $300 and cosina/voigtlander provides a full range of high quality, reasonably priced lenses.
--
Jay S.
http://www.carr-siegel.net

Alright, what do I expect - a Canon 1Ds in terms of size and weight? but IMO (and without having played with the camera or the 5000) all the resolution in the world won't help the 5700 and its siblings unless it is attached to a sturdy tripod - which negates the purpose of a small light camera in the first place.

In the late '60s even amateur cameras were heavy (on the whole). I have in front of me a fixed lens Minolta from the late '60s with a very sharp 45mm lens. (I am sure Canon and others used the same lens).

The camera is heavy enough to knock out a mugger. It will fit male hands. Nikon keeps bringing out cameras that can't perform as well as the lenses they are given. All these cameras have built in camera shake. Too light. Too small.

Admittedly no one wants to carry a camera the size (and expense) of a Canon 1d everywhere. I don't have one (You wouldn't believe the weight of my camera bags) but it would be nice to have a bigger and heavier 5700. My other guess is that with the huge zoom range the resolution won't be wonderful - even with ED glass.

Having said all these bad things about the 5700 the D100 will I am sure address many of my negative concerns and I look forward to Phil's review on this model. If nothing else, when both the D100 and the Canon D60 are available off the shelf I bet we can anticipate a big price drop for both cameras. By that time Photokina will be upon us.

The "camera" I am most excited about at the moment? A £275 Epson 2450 scanner. I am positive it is bettter than 5x4". Photograph fairly flat images up to A4, cut the images out, put them in a new layer and photo comping is relatively easy. Huge, huge file sizes too - if you want them.Sorry, gone off topic
Regards
Jerome y.

Jerome said:

Alright, what do I expect - a Canon 1Ds in terms of size and
weight? but IMO (and without having played with the camera or the
5000) all the resolution in the world won't help the 5700 and its
siblings unless it is attached to a sturdy tripod - which negates
the purpose of a small light camera in the first place.

Click to expand...

If they had stuck image stabilization (C2100z, Pro90) in this little box I'd be refiguring my budget...

--
bob
http://www.pbase.com/bobtrips
pictures from Thailand and Myanmar(Burma)

Hey Travis-

That ROUND mouse that Apple's interface group introduced with the first iMac was a real hummer, wasn't it?

travis belton said:

Makes me wish that Apple's interface group (the folks who gave us
iPod, iTunes, the Mac OS, etc, etc) could sub-contract out to the
camera manufacturers...

Click to expand...

--
Gary Shepard
Foreside PhotoGraphics
Maine, USA

Apple invented the mouse, --talk about THE interface device--, then they where playing and came up with a very nice looking inpractical mouse (now they have a new one), but they took risks and were not afraid to be different. If this is what is wrong wiht them... one lousy mouse in a history of the best industrial design ever aplied to computers...

gary shepard said:

That ROUND mouse that Apple's interface group introduced with the
first iMac was a real hummer, wasn't it?

travis belton said:

Makes me wish that Apple's interface group (the folks who gave us
iPod, iTunes, the Mac OS, etc, etc) could sub-contract out to the
camera manufacturers...

Click to expand...

--
Gary Shepard
Foreside PhotoGraphics
Maine, USA

Click to expand...

--
Frank Barret

Talk about revisionist history. Apple? NOT. Douglas Englebart invented the mouse and a mouse was first released commercially at Xerox on the Xerox Star -- the GUI / Mouse interface that Steve Jobs ripped off after a visit to Xerox Parc.

http://www.ibiblio.org/pioneers/englebart.html

frank barret said:

Apple invented the mouse, --talk about THE interface device--, then
they where playing and came up with a very nice looking inpractical
mouse (now they have a new one), but they took risks and were not
afraid to be different. If this is what is wrong wiht them... one
lousy mouse in a history of the best industrial design ever aplied
to computers...

Click to expand...

--
http://www.NorthernJourney.com/

I think the camera itself is going to attract way too many buyers. I hope Phil's review is not going to be a stellar one otherwise is going to be "the" camera to have... having the CP5K my expectations of the 5700 are that if it is as good as the CP5K it will be a winner as far as I am concerned...

Fabio said:

Someone had a bad trip at Nikon. The idea to put commands in the
5700 in three different areas, with similar buttons doing different
things, suggests there is a current of ergonomical madness between
digicam designers. I suggest there is still room on the button to
put some options (like Nice boy/nice girl/ugly aunt/horrible
mother-in-law selector). Could someone explain to Nikon that at
least sometimes we shoot photos, and do not go up and down menus?
The thing also suggests we are going to have a single Big Brother
camera in each class, with the manufacturers providing lens,
software and nameplate. I think I'll buy that Voigtlander RF.

Fabio

Click to expand...

Jay Siegel said:

The Bessa L is really a back to basics
camera NO range finder, NO viewfinder but it DOES have a TTL light
meter!

Click to expand...

Jay Siegel said:

The voigtlander has been a pleasure to use -- the viewfinders are
clear, bright -- as if nothing is between me and the view.

Click to expand...

'Splain.

Gary Eickmeier

Gary Eickmeier said:

Jay Siegel said:

The Bessa L is really a back to basics
camera NO range finder, NO viewfinder but it DOES have a TTL light
meter!

Click to expand...

Gary Eickmeier said:

The voigtlander has been a pleasure to use -- the viewfinders are
clear, bright -- as if nothing is between me and the view.

Click to expand...

'Splain.

Gary Eickmeier

Click to expand...

For the wide angle lenses (I have the 15mm and 25mm lenses, 110 degree and 85 degree angle of view on 35mm film) voigtlander provides a viewfinder with each lens. The viewfinder slips into the accessory shoe and gives a clear bright image of what the lens sees (with a little parralax error of course since the finder is above the lens). Since this is a manual camera, once you've set up -- set f-stop, speed and focus, there is nothing left to do but compose and shoot. It seems both more thoughtful and immediate compared to my digital cams -- Oly 2020, 2500l, and E-100.
--
Jay S.
http://www.carr-siegel.net

Fabio,

I guess they are getting out there a bit in comparison to their more tame days, but they've always created innovative body designs (coolpix series for instance) I love the button set up on my 990. In the 5700 I think some of the buttons can be programmed, if so that would be great for customizing how they behave. Not to call names but Minolta owns the crown on both ugly and button riddled cameras in my book, that new D7i looks like a piece of post modern art sculpture!

(All in fun)

Regards,

Fabio said:

Someone had a bad trip at Nikon. The idea to put commands in the
5700 in three different areas, with similar buttons doing different
things, suggests there is a current of ergonomical madness between
digicam designers. I suggest there is still room on the button to
put some options (like Nice boy/nice girl/ugly aunt/horrible
mother-in-law selector). Could someone explain to Nikon that at
least sometimes we shoot photos, and do not go up and down menus?
The thing also suggests we are going to have a single Big Brother
camera in each class, with the manufacturers providing lens,
software and nameplate. I think I'll buy that Voigtlander RF.

Fabio

Click to expand...

--

Buy the Voightlander you will love it! Superb lenses, escpeially the wide angles.

Fabio said:

Someone had a bad trip at Nikon. The idea to put commands in the
5700 in three different areas, with similar buttons doing different
things, suggests there is a current of ergonomical madness between
digicam designers. I suggest there is still room on the button to
put some options (like Nice boy/nice girl/ugly aunt/horrible
mother-in-law selector). Could someone explain to Nikon that at
least sometimes we shoot photos, and do not go up and down menus?
The thing also suggests we are going to have a single Big Brother
camera in each class, with the manufacturers providing lens,
software and nameplate. I think I'll buy that Voigtlander RF.

Fabio

Click to expand...

--
Jonathan

jwilliams said:

Buy the Voightlander you will love it! Superb lenses, escpeially
the wide angles.

Click to expand...

jwilliams said:

--
Jonathan

Click to expand...

Thanks Jonathan, I know. But like everybody else in this forum I am still hoping to get rid of film and scanner time. I am still waiting for someone to build a digital camera at sensible price made for serious photographic work. All the master designs of the past have been minimalist and free of gimnicks. You cannot do that if you include voice recording, video clips or even a built-in flash, and you do not even care if the tripod socket is in the right place.

Fabio

Jay Siegel said:

For the wide angle lenses (I have the 15mm and 25mm lenses, 110
degree and 85 degree angle of view on 35mm film) voigtlander
provides a viewfinder with each lens. The viewfinder slips into
the accessory shoe and gives a clear bright image of what the lens
sees (with a little parralax error of course since the finder is
above the lens). Since this is a manual camera, once you've set up
-- set f-stop, speed and focus, there is nothing left to do but
compose and shoot. It seems both more thoughtful and immediate
compared to my digital cams -- Oly 2020, 2500l, and E-100.
--
Jay S.
http://www.carr-siegel.net

Click to expand...

Jay,

I bought a C4040 recently and yesterday I started to use it in full manual mode, almost exactly like I did years ago with my old Yashica (yes!). I mean: select Ap and Speed, focus manually using the (quite adequate) scale (LCD not very useful for focussing), compose and shoot.

I felt a little silly using this fully programmed camera as this but now I am some what comforted by your replies.

I just wish the designers of Digicams found a way to incorporate that split-circle focussing aid that old cameras had in the viewer. That never failed me.

Flatron1