Full Fame Digital Compact!

Hmmm. that's a woman's line......
Not always. 36D > 30A most of the time. : )

--
--joe
I agree on DOF. The big thing to me on a compact would be getting a shallow DOF. You need a big sensor for that and "full-frame" makes sense because there is already the production infrastructure for it. Also, with the D3 having shown what is now possible for low-noise at high ISOs, a bigger sensor is desirable.

I'd have to disagree on the other point here -- I've always gravitated more towards the "30A" side of things than the "36D" side. :-)

Ye Customer
(Alex)
 
If anyone were to come out with a Full-Frame Digital Compact, it wouldn't be very compact because the lens will also have to be full size. Even if you put just a 3X zoom, it will not be a camera that you can stick in your pocket. Or, even a fixed prime lens will stick out about 1-2" from the front of the camera.

Remember cameras like the Minolta Hi-Matic AF, or the Canons rangefinders? That would give you an idea of how big the camera would be.
 
You keep missing the point and you're twisting things around to suit your stance. You've denounced science and technology by saying "ever" and "always" (among other things), and in the context you used them you're applying artificial and strict limits to science and technology and essentially saying that they stand still, at least when it comes to sensor and lens technology.

The discussion is about future technology, and "same generation" has little or nothing to do with it. Same generation means nothing if that technology isn't desirable, necessary, or cost effective in a larger product. In other words, as I said before, if a small sensor does the job and does it well, why would anyone want a larger, more expensive camera and lenses? See my previous point about medium and large format cameras.

All of your statements are based on what you know or think you know about current technology, so they are pretty much meaningless. I don't care what the current limits of technology are, as they pertain to this discussion. I don't care whether a bigger sensor is better than a smaller one, right now. I don't care how lenses are made, right now. None of that matters.

In the future, and maybe not all that long from now, things will change. When I was a young man there were no cell phones, no home computers, no internet, no cable TV, no DVDs, no CDs, no space shuttles, no rovers on Mars, no satellite TV, no digital cameras, no MRI machines, no fuel injected production cars, no Ipods, no Zunes, no Bluetooth, no Photoshop, no F16s, no Plasma TVs, no HDTV, no microwave ovens, and many thousands of other things that are now common and taken for granted.

You can't possibly know what the future holds, for cameras or anything else, and saying something can't happen is arrogant and defeatist.

I didn't bother to look at the links you posted. It would be a waste of time.
You missed the entire point Joe. Don't be so anxious to be a
know-it-all, and please take more time to read before you respond.
I've often found that people who accuse others of seeking to be a
"know-it-all", without offering ideas of substance, do not make for
enlightening debate...
The inventive and ever evolving science and technology you're
denouncing for the future is what made it possible for you to have
the current technology today. Science and technology don't stand
still.
...especially when they ascribe ideas to me that I never said or
implied. Do tell me, and please be specific with links and quotes,
where I "denounced" the "ever evolving science and technology."
Find, quote, and link where I said, or implied, that science and/or
technology "stand still".

After you've done that, please debunk what I actually did say:
"Bigger is better (in terms of IQ)" for the same level of technology.

I see myself as this poster does:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1029&message=27899428

I'll bet you see me differently. No worries. But, please, take me
up on my offer and prove me wrong, or, at the very least, give me
reason to believe I may be mistaken. I've been wrong many times
before, and quickly correct myself when I've been shown to be in
error. But you have to show me -- I'm not one to back away from what
I believe solely on your good word alone. I'm an evidence kind of
guy.

--
--joe

http://www.josephjamesphotography.com
http://www.pbase.com/joemama/
 
A lot of people throughout time have said some things are
"impossible" and many of them have been proven wrong. You and joe
mama are basing your statements on what you know about current
knowledge and technology. Other people have more open minds and they
realize that technology doesn't sit still.
You need to distinguish between technological barriers and physical
realities. For example, it is impossible to make a lens faster
than f/0.5 (in air). It doesn't have anything to do with
technological limitations, it's just a fact of optics. Thus, larger
formats will always be able to deliver a more shallow DOF than
smaller formats.

Similarly, not all the noise comes from the equipment -- light
actually makes its own noise. Thus, no matter how good the
technology is in terms of the equipment, there will always be noise
from the light itself, and this noise is usually the dominant source
of noise. Thus, since the larger sensor is able to collect more
light, it will have less noise.
That makes no sense. If light makes it's own noise and that noise is the dominant source of noise, how would more light collected have less noise?

The rest of my response is further down the thread.
Most cars used to be bigger and heavier. These days the trend is
toward smaller and lighter and it will keep going that way. Why?
Because it's more practical and efficient. Technology has improved
greatly and the small cars of today are usually safer than the big
cars of yesterday. Many of the small, ordinary cars of today are more
powerful and faster, yet more economical than the muscle cars of
yesterday.
A good start is to use a proper analogy. How about telescopes? Now,
certain technological advances have allowed smaller telescopes to
outresolve larger telescopes, and new ideas, such as putting
telescopes into space beyond the atmosphere, have allowed smaller
telescopes to function better than larger ground-based telescopes.
But, for the same technology, bigger is better, and there is simply
no reason to expect that smaller sensors will employ a "better"
technology than larger sensors.
When a small sensor is designed that has the same or better
attributes as a large sensor, there won't be any need for a large
sensor. Even if a future large sensor might be "better" than a small
one, what's the point of making one if it doesn't do any good? If a
small sensor does the job and does it well, that's what people will
want, especially when it keeps the cost down and it means smaller and
lighter cameras and lenses.
The large sensors are put into the flagship cameras of the companies.
So, until that changes, if there are any technological advances,
they'll be seen in larger sensors before smaller sensors.
More P&S cameras are sold these days, by far, than DSLRs. Most people
want small, light cameras and lenses. Most people will even sacrifice
some image quality to have those small, light cameras and lenses.
When small sensor cameras are able to match or exceed today's large
sensor cameras in image quality and other attributes, why would
anyone want a big old clunker of a DSLR and huge lenses and the
associated costs?
No small sensor camera will ever be able to get the shallow DOF I
get with my 5D and current lenses. Since I love shallow DOF, and
there are others like me, there will always be a demand for the
larger sensor cameras.

But of course smaller sensors are more popular! Most people do not
care about what I care about in photography. What's your point?
Going back to your thread where you expressed your dislike of ultra
shallow DOF:
If big sensors and expensive cameras were what most people want,
medium format or large format cameras, whether film or digital, would
be selling like crazy.
If "what most people want" was the criteria for what is considered
"good" in photography, then that would be a sad day. Sure, there
will come a time when cell phone cameras will satisfy the QT (quality
threshold) for the vast majority, just as endless bad TV satifies the
QT for the vast majority.

But I think I'd rather sit down and watch some programming that
wasn't "what most people want" than watch what everyone else is
watching. That said, I enjoy some popular shows.

In other words, I think great pics can be taken with all formats,
and I certainly do not deny the greater pouplarity of smaller
formats, from cropped sensor DSLRs to compacts to cell phones. But I
do deny that that smaller sensors will ever outperform the larger
formats of the same generation. Whether or not you care about what
the larger formats have to offer you is an entirely different matter,
however.

So, please make sure that you differentiate between technological
limitations and scientific impossibiities, and also distinguish
between what the majority want, what you want, and what others want.
They are all very different things.

--
--joe
Snipped for length.
 
For those that believe sensor size rules over all else, a 24x36 'compact'.

Theoretically, it could be made - there were plenty of 35mm compact film cameras. Of course, the quality wasn't so hot, but film was cheap, so who cared?

Pack an expensive large sensor in a small camera, short registration distance, light hitting the big sensor at all sorts of extreme angles, and you'll get - a mess. Some of that can be corrected, but at a cost. A small camera that can really reduce DOF... perhaps that would obscure the soft edges, vignetting and CA. At least the DP1 can do magnificent landscapes.

A small camera with a huge sensor would be useful for joining in one of those tedious 'ff will rule the world' dpr threads, but as far as being an advance in better photography, probably not.
 
It would still be a nice size though. I used to backpack with a smallish Pentax 35mm film Point & Shoot (well... it had some nice manual controls, but was mostly a P&S). It was more compact than an SLR (unless it was a small SLR with a pancake lens) but still quite large by today's compact camera standards. Definitely not a pocket camera.

The Oly e420 with pancake lens is probably smaller than my old Pentax with 35mm film. The e420 isn't full frame, but does offer a much larger sensor than most compacts. My most compact SLR solution right now is a Nikon D70 with a 35mm prime for a compact consumer zoom. Definitely not a pocket camera, but quite light and it will fit a small bag. Compared to my D200 with a 17-55mm f/2.8 attached it's quite compact.

The Sigma Dp1 is attractive to me, but I'll wait until it evolves or until we see what the competitors offer.

Sean
 
Similarly, not all the noise comes from the equipment -- light
actually makes its own noise. Thus, no matter how good the
technology is in terms of the equipment, there will always be noise
from the light itself, and this noise is usually the dominant source
of noise. Thus, since the larger sensor is able to collect more
light, it will have less noise.
That makes no sense. If light makes it's own noise and that noise is
the dominant source of noise, how would more light collected have
less noise?
...that rather than learning why this is the case, you choose this attitude instead.
The rest of my response is further down the thread.
Yeah, I know.
Snipped for length.
Also snipped because you chose not to learn. Pity.

--
--joe

http://www.josephjamesphotography.com
http://www.pbase.com/joemama/
 
I didn't bother to look at the links you posted. It would be a waste
of time.
Yeah, I guess it would be a waste of your time. I mean, if you can't appreciate that some love shallow DOF:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1018&message=28013538

and would throw these pics:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1018&message=28016905

"into the recycle bin":

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1018&message=28022006

and who doesn't understand the physics of noise, and has no interest in understanding how optics works:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1018&message=28029138

then all this most surely is a "waste of time" for you.

Too bad. Well, enjoy the rest of the day. I look forward to the day when I am shown to be wrong and "pen sized" cameras outperform today's DSLRs:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1018&message=28024368

Then you can come and say "I told you so!", without ever having had to go through the painful process of understanding why I am saying it cannot be done.

P.S.: Don't worry about skipping the links -- they're mostly all your posts, anyway.

--
--joe

http://www.josephjamesphotography.com
http://www.pbase.com/joemama/
 
Similarly, not all the noise comes from the equipment -- light
actually makes its own noise. Thus, no matter how good the
technology is in terms of the equipment, there will always be noise
from the light itself, and this noise is usually the dominant source
of noise. Thus, since the larger sensor is able to collect more
light, it will have less noise.
That makes no sense. If light makes it's own noise and that noise is
the dominant source of noise, how would more light collected have
less noise?
The term "noise" is used interchangably to mean both the total amount of noise, and the NSR (Noise-to-Signal Ratio), and the NSR is what most people mean when they refer to noise.

The shot noise in an image is the noise from the light itself. The unit of light is a photon, and the shot noise is the square root of the total number of photons: S = sqrt N, where S is the shot noise and N is the number of photons.

Hence, the NSR is given by: NSR = (sqrt N) / N = 1 / sqrt N. Thus, while the total amount of noise increases with more photons, the NSR decreases , which, of course, is what we would expect: more light = less noise, but remember, in this case, we are using the term "noise" to mean "NSR".

This link explains in more detail:

http://www.josephjamesphotography.com/equivalence/#noise

And this link explains in a lot more detail:

http://theory.uchicago.edu/~ejm/pix/20d/tests/noise/index.html

--
--joe

http://www.josephjamesphotography.com
http://www.pbase.com/joemama/
 
For those that believe sensor size rules over all else, a 24x36
'compact'.
Why the attitude? Bigger sensors have definite advantages over smaller sensors, and there are those of us that would like those advantages in a more compact package, even if it weren't as compact as smaller sensor compacts.
Theoretically, it could be made - there were plenty of 35mm compact
film cameras. Of course, the quality wasn't so hot, but film was
cheap, so who cared?
That's a big part of the issue, balancing the quality of the lens with the size of the lens. Clearly, a 35mm FF compact would require a prime lens, as a zoom would simply be too big. However, some high quality primes are really quite small, such as the 35 / 2. A new version of that lens, hopefully with USM, might be able to be made even smaller and used on the camera. A 35 / 2.8 would be even smaller still.
Pack an expensive large sensor in a small camera, short registration
distance, light hitting the big sensor at all sorts of extreme
angles, and you'll get - a mess. Some of that can be corrected, but
at a cost. A small camera that can really reduce DOF... perhaps that
would obscure the soft edges, vignetting and CA. At least the DP1 can
do magnificent landscapes.
It remains to be seen if it can be done. Perhaps, due to the angle of incidence, it is currently not possible to make a 35mm FF compact, since the registration distance cannot be reduced with a new lens design due to the problems you mention above.
A small camera with a huge sensor would be useful for joining in one
of those tedious 'ff will rule the world' dpr threads, but as far as
being an advance in better photography, probably not.
Man, that attitude! What gives? Same attitude as this guy:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1018&message=28013538

in that thread and this. If you have no use for the advantages of a larger sensor, don't buy it. I don't even see why you're even in this thread. But for those of us who enjoy the advantages of a larger sensor, why come in with this attitude?

--
--joe

http://www.josephjamesphotography.com
http://www.pbase.com/joemama/
 
That makes no sense. If light makes it's own noise and that noise is
the dominant source of noise, how would more light collected have
less noise?
Photon noise is a property of light. We normally don't see it because our brains protect us from it; we have evolved to see only what we need to see. The more light there is, the more evenly the photons are distributed spatially in a retina or sensor.

Light is discreet events; that is why light is said to have a particle nature. There is an electromagnetic radiation, but it is associated with a particle-like event. Photon noise is an uneveness that is due to having too few discreet events. Imagine that you have a flat box with a 5x5 grid of compartments, and you have a big bag of marbles, and you start tossing them from a distance. The first marble lands in one compartment, so you have a single compartment registering a marble. In photons, this is like having a single bright white pixel and 24 black ones. throw in a few more marbles, until one of the compartments has two, and that compartment is like a white pixel, the compartments with one marble are grey pixels, and the ones with none are black. Very noisy. Throw in a few hundred marbles, however, and the ratio of maximum to minimum marbles per compartment gets more compressed, and therefore, less noisy.

Current small sensor cameras are already capturing up to 50% of the photons in the visible spectrum. That means that there is only room to approximately double the amount of light collected at any given ISO, which would only reduce photon noise by 29%, or a half stop.

Doing any better than this would require capturing imaginary photons that aren't there. There is no smooth analog blanket of light to be captured; there are only photons, and they are FINITE in the area of the sensor's net. A better net can never capture more fish than there are in the water.

--
John

 
You can't possibly know what the future holds, for cameras or
anything else, and saying something can't happen is arrogant and
defeatist.
Do you expect that there will be a net, with future technology, that can net 10 fish in a tank with only 5 fish in it?

That's the kind of miracle it would take to get future tiny-sensor cameras to have as little noise as full-frame cameras have now, at any given ISO, for a single still-shot.

--
John

 
1 a: lacking the human power of speech b: of a person often offensive : lacking the ability to speak

2 a: lacking intelligence : stupid b: showing a lack of intelligence

I hope you meant Lacking intelligence.

In the context, I am confused if you meant all three words as an adjective or a noun.
--
ecube
 
Eventually when cost gets low enough you may see someone do it. I'd also like to point out that Sigma isn't even APS-C. They use a 1.7x which lands it in the oddly dark middle area between 4:3 and APS-C.
--
Wow...that's a pretty killer camera! Are you any good?

-Jake-
 
The Leica M8 and a lens is a fairly compact setup, possibly the replacement (M10?) will be full frame. In fact I would prefer a compact camera to be a rangefinder style, as long as it had Live View as an alternative. I would also prefer interchangable lenses, as a full frame sensor with a fixed lens is somewhat limited.
 
Nothing to do with the size of the camera though. It would have an effect on the lens configuration and size but the body would not need to change. Also, to the best of my knowledge, none of the big manufacturers have made truly telecentric optics for a 24x36mm FF sensor. I'm sure there are some lenses that get close, but so far I think the only company that can brag on this point of production quality is Oly, Pani and Leica.
--
Wow...that's a pretty killer camera! Are you any good?

-Jake-
 
Sensor size is relevant in a camera with interchangeable lenses, especially one that can make use of the dearth of lenses designed for the 24x36 format. But a compact, with a fixed lens, sensor size is somewhat irrelevant. All that matters is the IQ of the unit, and whether or not it meets your needs. Honestly, I'd love to see a compact camera that can provide the high ISO capabilities of my 5D, and if one is produced, I won't really care how big the sensor is.
--
-------------------------------------------------

 
You can't possibly know what the future holds, for cameras or
anything else, and saying something can't happen is arrogant and
defeatist.
Do you expect that there will be a net, with future technology, that
can net 10 fish in a tank with only 5 fish in it?
Based on your statement, then how does a bigger sensor capture more fish (Photons), if they're not there?
That's the kind of miracle it would take to get future tiny-sensor
cameras to have as little noise as full-frame cameras have now, at
any given ISO, for a single still-shot.
Among other things, you're not considering advances in other factors that can have a major impact on noise, like camera firmware and computer software. And who's to say that a small sensor won't be developed (with an entirely new technology) that wil equal or surpass the attributes of the large sensors of today?

Another thing to consider is the OPs original point. Even if larger sensors are necessary to get better image quality, and those sensors are fitted to small cameras like point and shoots, who's to say that there won't be developments in lens technology, sensor technology, or camera design that would allow the use of small lenses?
 
For those that believe sensor size rules over all else, a 24x36
'compact'.
Why the attitude? Bigger sensors have definite advantages over
smaller sensors, and there are those of us that would like those
advantages in a more compact package, even if it weren't as compact
as smaller sensor compacts.
If anyone has an "attitude", it's you joe. You've been trying to pick a fight from the beginning.
Theoretically, it could be made - there were plenty of 35mm compact
film cameras. Of course, the quality wasn't so hot, but film was
cheap, so who cared?
That's a big part of the issue, balancing the quality of the lens
with the size of the lens. Clearly, a 35mm FF compact would require
a prime lens, as a zoom would simply be too big. However, some high
quality primes are really quite small, such as the 35 / 2. A new
version of that lens, hopefully with USM, might be able to be made
even smaller and used on the camera. A 35 / 2.8 would be even
smaller still.
Pack an expensive large sensor in a small camera, short registration
distance, light hitting the big sensor at all sorts of extreme
angles, and you'll get - a mess. Some of that can be corrected, but
at a cost. A small camera that can really reduce DOF... perhaps that
would obscure the soft edges, vignetting and CA. At least the DP1 can
do magnificent landscapes.
It remains to be seen if it can be done. Perhaps, due to the angle
of incidence, it is currently not possible to make a 35mm FF compact,
since the registration distance cannot be reduced with a new lens
design due to the problems you mention above.
There you go twisting things around again. First you have a negative, defeatist, "it's impossible" attitude, and then you say "It remains to be seen if it can be done."

Make up your mind.

There are lots of things that remain to be seen. In fact, that's the whole point. Future advances in technology are likely to bring about things you're never dreamed of.
A small camera with a huge sensor would be useful for joining in one
of those tedious 'ff will rule the world' dpr threads, but as far as
being an advance in better photography, probably not.
Man, that attitude! What gives? Same attitude as this guy:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1018&message=28013538

in that thread and this. If you have no use for the advantages of a
larger sensor, don't buy it. I don't even see why you're even in
this thread. But for those of us who enjoy the advantages of a
larger sensor, why come in with this attitude?
You're still trying hard to start a fight, eh joe?
 

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