D1X: The Real Truth About CCD Dust

Clint Thayer #32755 · Jun 2, 2002

As many of you may know, I take hundreds of pictures every week. I have a rigorous cleaning agenda that in my case gets done on every major photo shoot.

But the truth is, no matter how often you clean and how well it is done, the dust is still there. For example, although you don't see them now, I had to remove over 60 dust blemishes from every single shot of Mt. Rainier in my newest gallery. Yes, blue skies and white snow makes it obvious.

But it's also obvious in macro work with blurred backgrounds and in any continuous color. This dust occured with only (2) lens changes after complete cleaning beforehand.

This post is not about cleaning advice-- or about how to clean. It is to remind potential users that it will add another "workflow" to your photo work if you take as many pictures as I do. So here is my newest advice- and other owners of D1X may feel differently:

Limit your lens variety to just a few very high quality lenses. Get a great medium zoom and keep it on. I don't recommend primes for every single focal length at all (this is sad- because I like primes). Don't be afraid to walk back and forth to frame your subject with your current lens.

This dust is not temporary-- it actually builds up from lens change to change. Blowing the dust out or cleaning the CCD does not remove all of it. More often than not, it just rearranges it inside the body. Also remember, you are not cleaning the CCD-- you are cleaning the Filter in front of the CCD.

Let us hope and pray-- that for users like me (and you) who genuinely take pictures (not just talk about it) that Nikon will release the 3rd generation D series camera with a robust fix for this. It's way past due and its' a shame that the D100 will be plagued with this problem too.

Which brings me to another point:

Since Fuji film has engineered their own proprietary Super CCD chip and filter system, is the S2 Pro going to have this problem too? Or has Fuji been wise enough to make sure they created a blockade similar to Canons?

Ger Bee · Jun 3, 2002

... until the arrival of the D1x. All boosted CCD output have a bigger problem - the 12MP from the S2 will have giant dust issues - just like thee S1 did with its 6MPs.

However, whilst the dust is annoying and during a recent thunderstorm I was perplexed to find a dust shape that I had blown out only two days ago to be back again, just re-circulated as you say, I just do not have the dust problems that you report. I did have this dust cloud early on when I did not know how to clean my CCD, improper cleaning will leave suspended dust, which will get attracted, to the CCD as soon as the camera is turned on.

One just should not experience this much dust on a clean CCD with one or two lens changes.

Clint Thayer #32755 said:
Clint Thayer #32755 said:

Since Fuji film has engineered their own proprietary Super CCD chip

Click to expand...

and filter system, is the S2 Pro going to have this problem too? Or
has Fuji been wise enough to make sure they created a blockade
similar to Canons?

alfred_schiele · Jun 3, 2002

Hi!

Clint Thayer #32755 said:
Which brings me to another point:

Me too... as I am more talking about D-SLR actually because I am in a kind of decision phase here, I seriously followed your experiences and hints. I take it more serious even because you own a D1x and use it regularily and you are not doing the "I love my new toy so much..." blabla...

I tend to try a D60 first (regardless of all other discussion about it) to get a feel of the dust problem with this camera and D-SLR in general. If even the low judged dust problems with D60 would not meet my expectations, I will leave the D-SLR thng off for a while as I do not depend on this technology for professional need as you do.

I really would like a D-SLR with the build quality of D1x (regardless of the high price) but I have two major doubts: Dust makes workflow so disappointing and a bit too low resolution to be happy with it for more than 2 years... (as I can not afford to regularily change to the latest technology) So actually I think it is better for me to wait for Nikons "D2" and let's see what has changed so far.

Clint Thayer #32755 said:
Since Fuji film has engineered their own proprietary Super CCD chip
and filter system, is the S2 Pro going to have this problem too? Or
has Fuji been wise enough to make sure they created a blockade
similar to Canons?

I only examined a lot of S1 demo images but dust was a major problem. I found most dust on S1 images, followed by D1x which there was sometimes dust to be seen. With Canon I remeber only a single shot where I suddenly dicovered a single clearly visible spot, all others I couldn't see any instantly, maybe there were some but not easily tob e seen anywhere.

Regards, A. Schiele.

Hendrik van der Veen · Jun 3, 2002

I totally agree with you. I took my D1X for a cleaning at the Nikon Service. I took a picture of the sky right after I stepped out the door. The result? A sky with tens (hundreds?) small dust particles.

A clean CCD (filter) does not exist. I do not clean my CCD if it is not visible in my pictures. I only blow with a big hand-blower, and when necessary I bring it to the Nikon Service for a thorough cleaning. They strongly advice against cleaning it myself, so I do not do it.

At this moment I have not noticed any dust particles in my pictures. Several weeks after the cleaning and shots taken below.

My advice: forget the dust, enjoy shooting.

-Hendrik-

Below the pictures I took 2 minutes after the cleaning by Nikon:

125 iso-NEF; 50/1.8 D AF lens; s=1/80s - f22
1: 25 % resized; auto-levels; 45 quality-jpeg compression.
2: 100 % crop; auto-levels; 45 quality-jpeg compression

Ger Bee · Jun 3, 2002

..Nikon's advice.

But my experience would support yours vis-à-vis the Nikon cleaning.

However, I have achieved a dust free CCD – not every time but I do clean my CCD much better than Nikon did. I certainly can support the clouds of dust after a Nikon cleaning – I just don’t have that after my own cleaning sessions – I will see some specs of dust, usually the larger variety and an air blow seems to take them down.

I have my D1x since September and did suffer sudden and catastrophic dust pollution on a few occasions. My cause was my old 80~200 lens which had been also idle for over two years – I have replaced my three standard zooms and keep them either in plastic or in their cases – a thing I used never do, they were heretofore always just stuffed into my pocket minus their rear lens caps to boot.

I am also careful to switch off my camera – a hard habit to break as I change lenses quite a bit but only have the one D-SLR (hoping the D100 will reduce this lens changing a bit). My records show I’ve averaged 1,750 shots a months (which is a third lower than my average last year with the E10) and shot in gales, driving rain, dust clouds, seashore, and swimming pools – I do change lenses as fast as possible and don’t leave the camera lensless at all.

After a few thorough cleanings and a policy to minimise dust I have had a satisfactory relationship with my D1x on the dust issue. I don’t have as much dust on my CCD as I did when new for instance and once over the pollution issue mentioned, I have not experienced the dust clouds in this magnitude since. I contend – without sufficient evidence - that every D1x owner will go through a phase where a dust battle seems impossible but will soon dissipate with a little effort – I am in fact now echoing the comments of early Fuji S1 owners – ergo the problem won’t go away but the problem does reduce with time.

Hendrik van der Veen said:
I totally agree with you. I took my D1X for a cleaning at the Nikon
Service. I took a picture of the sky right after I stepped out the
door. The result? A sky with tens (hundreds?) small dust particles.

alfred_schiele · Jun 3, 2002

Hi!

Hendrik van der Veen said:
My advice: forget the dust, enjoy shooting.

Oh good! Ho can you enjoy these results? In my eyes this is worse than every discussion about a bit more or less resolution or sharpness in any D-SLR...

All the retouching in PS looks to me lasting hours... What a progress with D-SLR technology

=

Never had anything comparable with film either...

Regards, A. Schiele.

Leon Obers · Jun 3, 2002

Movie Bear said:
But the truth is, no matter how often you clean and how well it is
done, the dust is still there.

Well, all those problems as written on this forum and especially the enormous problems as seen of Hendrik van der Veen
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1021&message=2796492
I am happy I don't have these problems at all.

I think it is not a question of cleaning the CCD, but an attitude to be proper and clean in general. If you look to work of photographers one do have fingerprints and curled corners (dog-ears) showing his pictures. Looking to the equipment, it is full of scratches and feels "greasy". Looking to the viewfinder, the matte-screen is ful of dust. It should not surprise everyone that such a kind of person do have more problems to keep his CCD clean.

I am extremely carefully using my equipment. Looking at it, it seems if it is rather new from the shop (even after years). Changing lenses I always take care not to stand within open wind but turn in such a way camera and lens are "sheltered" to my coat or body. Camerabody turning a bit downwards when it is open.

After a shoot and being home I do inspect the equipment. Keep out dust from mirror-house if needed but especially the back of lenses. Keep out dust by the rear lens-caps as well front caps just by a big rubber ball blower. Most photographers do forgot these details and just carry those lens-caps within their very dusty coat-pocket, not being concerned that the dust in it comes to the rear of camera-lenses when the cap is put to the lens again and afterwards come into the mirror-house --> CCD. Did I say that my back-pack (Lowepro case) is clean too? Don't use it for you sandwiches, and keep it clean by a hoover from time to time. It is a chain to be clean in all details. In this way you shall feel the advantage.

At the other hand, don't think that I am extremely cleaning in a heavy way. To be clean in general, just use your common sense to avoid problems, and it is very easy to keep everything in top-condition.

In time this way of working is a "habbit" and you don't feel it as someting extra to do. In this way I don't met al those problems.

By the top-condition and always looking "new" of my equipment old outdated equipment that I do want to sell it always have a high value that new users want to pay for it. In this matter the write-off of the equipment is very low. Within years this advantage that is a big economic benefit you didn't expect before.

So in all respects happy.

--
Leon Obers

Laurie123 · Jun 3, 2002

Okay, Mr. Clean, but the original poster was right: it's impossible to keep dust off of the CCD. You can be as anal retentive as you want about your camera equipment; aside from driving those around you crazy, you'll also have dust on your CCD just like everyone else.

Those people who say "forget about the dust and just shoot" are obviously just snapshotters who never go into the studio and stop their cameras down to F16 or better. When you do that, you'll see the dust on your CCD, and it will not be possible for you to "just forget about it" - unless you like to see big dark blobs in your photographs.

And while we're at it, dust is not the only unconscionable flaw of the D1X. Another major issue that adds considerable time to workflow is the lack of automatic auto-rotation of shots taken in portrait orientation. No excuse for not having this on a 5K camera.

Leon Obers said:
Movie Bear said:

But the truth is, no matter how often you clean and how well it is
done, the dust is still there.

Click to expand...

Well, all those problems as written on this forum and especially
the enormous problems as seen of Hendrik van der Veen
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1021&message=2796492
I am happy I don't have these problems at all.
I think it is not a question of cleaning the CCD, but an attitude
to be proper and clean in general. If you look to work of
photographers one do have fingerprints and curled corners
(dog-ears) showing his pictures. Looking to the equipment, it is
full of scratches and feels "greasy". Looking to the viewfinder,
the matte-screen is ful of dust. It should not surprise everyone
that such a kind of person do have more problems to keep his CCD
clean.
I am extremely carefully using my equipment. Looking at it, it
seems if it is rather new from the shop (even after years).
Changing lenses I always take care not to stand within open wind
but turn in such a way camera and lens are "sheltered" to my coat
or body. Camerabody turning a bit downwards when it is open.
After a shoot and being home I do inspect the equipment. Keep out
dust from mirror-house if needed but especially the back of lenses.
Keep out dust by the rear lens-caps as well front caps just by a
big rubber ball blower. Most photographers do forgot these details
and just carry those lens-caps within their very dusty coat-pocket,
not being concerned that the dust in it comes to the rear of
camera-lenses when the cap is put to the lens again and afterwards
come into the mirror-house --> CCD. Did I say that my back-pack
(Lowepro case) is clean too? Don't use it for you sandwiches, and
keep it clean by a hoover from time to time. It is a chain to be
clean in all details. In this way you shall feel the advantage.
At the other hand, don't think that I am extremely cleaning in a
heavy way. To be clean in general, just use your common sense to
avoid problems, and it is very easy to keep everything in
top-condition.

In time this way of working is a "habbit" and you don't feel it as
someting extra to do. In this way I don't met al those problems.
By the top-condition and always looking "new" of my equipment old
outdated equipment that I do want to sell it always have a high
value that new users want to pay for it. In this matter the
write-off of the equipment is very low. Within years this advantage
that is a big economic benefit you didn't expect before.

So in all respects happy.

--
Leon Obers

Eric Jon Job · Jun 3, 2002

I've found the solution. A portable "clean room." See

http://www.cleanroomeng.com/products_softwalls.cfm

for details on what promises to solve the dust problems
once and for all.

More seriously, if I understand it, the CCD attracts dust because
it has a charge on it. Can they build something into the camera
that has a greater charge than the CCD to draw dust away?
Or would it be possible to create a CCD cleaner that amounted
to a charged wand that one could point near the CCD (but not
touch it) that could draw the dust off of it?

Eric

F.U. Bee said:
Okay, Mr. Clean, but the original poster was right: it's impossible
to keep dust off of the CCD. You can be as anal retentive as you
want about your camera equipment; aside from driving those around
you crazy, you'll also have dust on your CCD just like everyone
else.

Those people who say "forget about the dust and just shoot" are
obviously just snapshotters who never go into the studio and stop
their cameras down to F16 or better. When you do that, you'll see
the dust on your CCD, and it will not be possible for you to "just
forget about it" - unless you like to see big dark blobs in your
photographs.

And while we're at it, dust is not the only unconscionable flaw of
the D1X. Another major issue that adds considerable time to
workflow is the lack of automatic auto-rotation of shots taken in
portrait orientation. No excuse for not having this on a 5K camera.

mrwally · Jun 3, 2002

Ger Bee,

You bring up an execellent point that many of us may miss and that's making sure our lenses are kept clean. After reading your post, I looked at the tail end of my long lenses and lets just say they are going in to get a good cleaning. Like you, I would in a rush, stuff a lens without the cap into a pocket, slap on the other lens and snap away. Now I realize that as soon as I put the dirty lens on, I'm just making dust and dirt available to the camera.

Good advice on keeping the lenses clean as well as the CCD!

Rick

Ger Bee said:
But my experience would support yours vis-à-vis the Nikon cleaning.

However, I have achieved a dust free CCD – not every time but I do
clean my CCD much better than Nikon did. I certainly can support
the clouds of dust after a Nikon cleaning – I just don’t have that
after my own cleaning sessions – I will see some specs of dust,
usually the larger variety and an air blow seems to take them down.

I have my D1x since September and did suffer sudden and
catastrophic dust pollution on a few occasions. My cause was my old
80~200 lens which had been also idle for over two years – I have
replaced my three standard zooms and keep them either in plastic or
in their cases – a thing I used never do, they were heretofore
always just stuffed into my pocket minus their rear lens caps to
boot.

I am also careful to switch off my camera – a hard habit to break
as I change lenses quite a bit but only have the one D-SLR (hoping
the D100 will reduce this lens changing a bit). My records show
I’ve averaged 1,750 shots a months (which is a third lower than my
average last year with the E10) and shot in gales, driving rain,
dust clouds, seashore, and swimming pools – I do change lenses as
fast as possible and don’t leave the camera lensless at all.

After a few thorough cleanings and a policy to minimise dust I have
had a satisfactory relationship with my D1x on the dust issue. I
don’t have as much dust on my CCD as I did when new for instance
and once over the pollution issue mentioned, I have not experienced
the dust clouds in this magnitude since. I contend – without
sufficient evidence - that every D1x owner will go through a phase
where a dust battle seems impossible but will soon dissipate with a
little effort – I am in fact now echoing the comments of early Fuji
S1 owners – ergo the problem won’t go away but the problem does
reduce with time.

Hendrik van der Veen said:

I totally agree with you. I took my D1X for a cleaning at the Nikon
Service. I took a picture of the sky right after I stepped out the
door. The result? A sky with tens (hundreds?) small dust particles.

Click to expand...

Hendrik van der Veen · Jun 3, 2002

Leon Obers said:
I am happy I don't have these problems at all.

Well that is because you probably don't own a D-SLR (D1X).

I'm very careful with my equipment. I have never changed a lens in 3 weeks, and when I do, I only do it with extreem precausions. I hate the dust on my CCD, but it is a battle I can't win. I now can live with it.

I'm happy I don't have to shoot a lot with f11-f22.

Leon, there will be dust on the CCD even when you never take the camera out of the box.

-Hendrik-

Hendrik van der Veen · Jun 3, 2002

F.U. Bee said:
Those people who say "forget about the dust and just shoot" are
obviously just snapshotters who never go into the studio and stop
their cameras down to F16 or better.

You're right. I can't forget it, but I try to. If I shoot in a studio, I stop down to f8-f11. Dust is not very noticable. I tried to work in an absolute dust-free workspace. It doesn't help. I now try to forget it and try to focus on my photoshoots. The dust? I will remove it with ps, just as in the 'old days'. Dust on your slides was a real pain also.

Warren Sam Cook · Jun 3, 2002

The truth about dust is that, just as in film cameras and scratches on the negative, there are inherent problems with digital cameras that stand in the way of your quest for perfection...That digital cameras are, in some ways, producers of more crisp images than film, causes dust to be a problem...However, I shoot, as a minimum, 900 images per week at some very dusty events, so I dust the outside of the camera before I start, dust it when I am done, set the camera on the dirt when I need to adjust something in my set up, and do not have a problem with dust that is anywhere more difficult than the problems one faces with film...For those shooting a great deal of sky, why not encase your camera in a 'clean suit' such as an underwater housing...Afterall, it is not as if Mt. Ranier is going to move around, so you are likely using a tripod anyhow...I would suggest that trying to get new technology to perform in the same manner as old technology, defeats the purpose of new technology...I hear the complaints of dust, but no one is mentioning the benifit of what the digital workflow does for them over film...I think that the digital benifits far outweigh dust or any other issue in this venue, and, after all, it is the photographer, not the equipment that makes photography.

Clint Thayer #32755 · Jun 3, 2002

Here is an example of a photo that was masked in another layer before I had to apply retouch. Every black dot represents dust contamination that had to be removed before final completion.

Note that this shot required stopped down apertures- and that this lens (both ends) were completely clean and the D1X had a a thorough CCD and mirror box cleaning just 3 hours prior to taking this shot.

I don't cram lenses in my pocket-- I never leave end caps off. And they were cleaned AGAIN just moments before this photo was taken.

The "After" picture can be viewed at http://www.pbase.com/image/2327672

Thom Hogan · Jun 3, 2002

Movie Bear said:
This post is not about cleaning advice-- or about how to clean. It
is to remind potential users that it will add another "workflow" to
your photo work if you take as many pictures as I do. So here is my
newest advice- and other owners of D1X may feel differently:

Even film users should have cleaning in their workflow. Before scanning any 35mm slide, I generally have to clean it and sometimes descratch it, despite the slide having been well protected and in a relatively clean environment. Those of you who don't clean the back side of your lenses (35mm or digital) risk the nubs on the lens mount not making secure contact with the camera, amongst other things.

Clint Thayer #32755 said:
Limit your lens variety to just a few very high quality lenses. Get
a great medium zoom and keep it on. I don't recommend primes for
every single focal length at all (this is sad- because I like
primes). Don't be afraid to walk back and forth to frame your
subject with your current lens.

I've seen little evidence that the number of times you change your lens equates to greater dust build-up. And remember, I'm working in almost worst-case conditions. Even those who stick to one lens will discover eventually that lenses don't make a perfect seal to the mirror box. Many lenses are porous enough and push air during zooming and autofocus that there is airflow into the mirror box regardless of whether you dismount the lens or not. Sure, it's severely restricted airflow, but it still is airflow. All you're doing is delaying the inevitable a bit.

Clint Thayer #32755 said:
This dust is not temporary-- it actually builds up from lens change
to change. Blowing the dust out or cleaning the CCD does not remove
all of it.

Blowing the dust without some form of air removal just moves it around in the CCD chamber and mirror box. If you use the blower method, at a minimum the camera should be facing the floor so that at least gravity gets some of the heavier particles you loosen. When I'm home, I sometimes hook a small vacuum up just outside the mirror box so that there's an air current running away from the CCD. Again, blowing may dislodge dust, but it doesn't guarantee that it has left the building...

Clint Thayer #32755 said:
Since Fuji film has engineered their own proprietary Super CCD chip
and filter system, is the S2 Pro going to have this problem too? Or
has Fuji been wise enough to make sure they created a blockade
similar to Canons?

Not that I know of. And what's this blockade you're talking about? The only camera I know of that attempts to block the dust at the lens mount is the upcoming Sigma. And that barrier had better be removable. I'd be happy to show you what happens to a completely sealed device (my F5 prism) when used in rough environments. Dust is insidious if not dealt with.

Again, your main point is well taken: add cleaning to your workflow. That's one of the reasons why I eventually posted my cleaning article, even though it was originally directed at D1 Report subscribers.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Nikon Field Guide
author, Nikon Flash Guide
author, Complete Guide to the Nikon D1, D1h, & D1x
http://www.bythom.com

Thom Hogan · Jun 3, 2002

Hendrik van der Veen said:
I totally agree with you. I took my D1X for a cleaning at the Nikon
Service. I took a picture of the sky right after I stepped out the
door. The result? A sky with tens (hundreds?) small dust particles.

Not surprising. I think they're more afraid of damaging a CCD then we D1 users are. And I don't think they're doing their cleaning in clean room conditions.

Hendrik van der Veen said:
Below the pictures I took 2 minutes after the cleaning by Nikon:

There's no excuse for that. That's worse than my camera has ever looked after two weeks in the backcountry. Indeed, I have to "work" very hard to get my CCD to look that bad.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Nikon Field Guide
author, Nikon Flash Guide
author, Complete Guide to the Nikon D1, D1h, & D1x
http://www.bythom.com

Clint Thayer #32755 · Jun 3, 2002

Hi Thom,

Why is it that the Canon D60 users don't report this kind of image contamination from their photo work?

This forum (Nikon) spends allot of energy talking about dust workflow- and yet I hardly ever see it in the Canon DSLR forum?

What's the difference?

Warren Sam Cook · Jun 3, 2002

Clint Thayer #32755 said:
What's the difference?

This is too easy: Perhaps the choice of photographic equipment and the final result goes to how discerning the user/subject/final arbitor is? Nikon people are genuine sticklers for perfection, which is how they made their original equimment choice.

JJNNBB · Jun 3, 2002

Nor on the Oly SLR forum. I wonder why?

As an E-10er I'm apalled at these examples of dust contamination. I very rarely have to spot out anything from my E-10, and what there is, I suppose, are from imperfect CCD pixels. I have one particular vertical pano which is perhaps 1/4 pure smooth totally even rich blue sky, from two or three component shots: not a blemish of any kind. What a pleasure after years of rubbish on negs.

Like many other E-10ers I feel let down by Olympus for not keeping us informed as to its plans for the future, effectively driving present users to the D-100 and perhaps the 5700, and the Canons.

But if this is what you get with removable lens - and I have been for years a NIkon user and have a basic set of lenses, unused for the time being - then the removable step is not for me, at least until I know what Oly are doing. A 6MP E-30 with all the faults corrected and lifting one or two tips from the D100 would do pretty well for me.

John Bunney

Movie Bear said:
Hi Thom,

Why is it that the Canon D60 users don't report this kind of image
contamination from their photo work?

This forum (Nikon) spends allot of energy talking about dust
workflow- and yet I hardly ever see it in the Canon DSLR forum?

What's the difference?

JJNNBB · Jun 3, 2002

(sorry for the double posting)

Nor on the Oly SLR forum. I wonder why?

As an E-10er I'm apalled at these examples of dust contamination. I very rarely have to spot out anything from my E-10, and what there is, I suppose, are from imperfect CCD pixels. I have one particular vertical pano which is perhaps 1/4 pure smooth totally even rich blue sky, from two or three component shots: not a blemish of any kind. What a pleasure after years of rubbish on negs.

Like many other E-10ers I feel let down by Olympus for not keeping us informed as to its plans for the future, effectively driving present users to the D-100 and perhaps the 5700, and the Canons.

But if this is what you get with removable lens - and I have been for years a NIkon user and have a basic set of lenses, unused for the time being - then the removable step is not for me, at least until I know what Oly are doing. A 6MP E-30 with all the faults corrected and lifting one or two tips from the D100 would do pretty well for me.

John Bunney

Movie Bear said:
Hi Thom,

Why is it that the Canon D60 users don't report this kind of image
contamination from their photo work?

This forum (Nikon) spends allot of energy talking about dust
workflow- and yet I hardly ever see it in the Canon DSLR forum?

What's the difference?

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