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Israel celebrates 60 years of independence!

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Hi there Nathany!

Has to be on line with Victor here Im afraid - nothing special about these photos what so ever - except good tecnique wich is allways apreciatet :=)

But I do allways enjoy seeing photos from Israel, never been there but hope one day to catch up!

Kind Regards

Jule
VictorDB said:
VictorDB wrote:
Nathany,

No politics, I'm in London a city shared by more divided peoples than
you can imagine but from a photographic perspective and as a fighter
plane enthusiast you do not do the country's aircraft justice.

From a news perspective I would have liked to have seen more people
photos of the independence day celebrations.

Not great pics I'm afraid mate, Bryan P is still my hero

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1010&message=23110502
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1010&message=23106495

Your Flikr streams had some quite nice (make that gorgeous)
photographs to be fair

Regards

Victor
Click to expand...
 
I hate to see this degenerate into a political brawl, but I cannot let this one go unanswered. The Gazan Palestinians hold the key to their own freedom from attacks, political and economic embargos, and a degenerative society by virtue of their ability to prevent Hamas from lobbing crude bombs bent onkilling any and all Israelis. Israel retaliates for its loss of life, and when the incoming missiles stop so will the retailaition.
--

Photography deals exquisitely with appearances, but nothing is what it appears to be. Duane Michals
 
I am not a religious person, and I try to respect people and their religious views, but it is things like this that make me think that the world would be so much more peaceful without it.

Religion is too easily exploted for political, oppresive and extremist agendas.
 
I hate discussing politics on a forum dedicated to photography but find it quite cynical that you express such an opinion on a British forum, just as if nothing happened at the King David Hotel in 1946 where 28 British citizens died in a Jewish Irgun terrorist bombing organised by someone who was later to become a prime minister of Israel.
KHous said:
For Israel, these are not new times we live in- a strong defense has
been the constant requirement for being the only democracy living in
the land of medieval tyrants dedicated to its destruction.
Personally, I wish Israel didn't have to rely on a strong military
but I'm glad it does have the cajones to resist the forces of evil in
its midst.

--
Photography deals exquisitely with appearances, but nothing is what
it appears to be. Duane Michals
Click to expand...
 
marcuson said:
lanef said:
pinnacle said:
It's even more tragic when you read archives detailing the Jewish
terrorist groups forcing 750,000 Palestinians out of their homes and
into refugee status in Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Lebanon.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
No Jewish "terrorist groups" forced 750,000 Palestinaians out of their homes.

Without a doubt, some Arabs of pre-Israel Palestine fled fighting between Jews and Arabs that Palestinian Arabs started in the Arab Revolt of the late 1930s. Others were indeed forced out because their homes and land became battlegrounds when Arab armies attacked a lawfully constituted state and fought the defense forces of that nascent state. Many others voluntarily left to avoid the Arab-initiated fighting, convinced that Israel would be destroyed quickly.

After the 1948 war ended, more were forced out of their homes and lands had property that lay on strategically located positions that Israel appropriated for its self defense. Regrettable and lamentable, not not without precedent.

Many or most of the displaced Arabs went to Arab countries that eventually detained them in "refugee camps". Israel is not responsible for the conditions in those camps or their stateless status of the refugees in their host Arab counties.
marcuson said:
marcuson said:
marcuson said:
Israel celebrates and the rest of the world still ignores the cries
of a people that were displaced by Irgun and the Stern gang in the
mid 1940's.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Irgun, Stern, etc. were defending Jewish citizens and residents against the aforementioned attacks by Arabs, whose leadership just happened to have sided with the Nazis in WWII. A few of Irgun and Stern may have indeed committed crimes against some Arabs, but in the 1947-1948 fighting, Irgun fought in defense of a lawfully constituted state, then was formally dissolved, and became part of the IDF.
marcuson said:
marcuson said:
marcuson said:
We'd better deal with the injustice that occurred back then or we
will continue to see lives lost needlessly.
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Certainly the Palestinian Arab refugees desrve relief from their current situation. And you are welcome to help those Arabs who initiated and lost the 1948 war (that they still refuse to settle) and sided with the losers who initiated WWII, but please don't presume that all of us want to help those Arabs who aided the Nazis and attacked a legally constituted state. Please don't ask for help for the self-inflicted "injustice" you mention.

And by the way, you forget to mention injustice done to the many thousands of Jews who were expelled from Arab countries with only the clothes on their back, upon the founding of Israel. If you choose to ignore that, then you manifest an anti-Semitic double standard.
marcuson said:
marcuson said:
While the US has been backing Israel all the way and no matter what
and the Western world closed a blind eye on the Palestinian
injustice, this has been the source of terrorism that has sadly
spread internationally now.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
By your text, I'm not sure which you consider the "terrorism": the US backing of and self-defense by Israel OR the violence committed against Israel and Western nations by Islamist forces (note that I distinguish between "Islamic" and "Islamist").

I would argue that the "source of terrorism" is the desire by many Islamists to impose Islamic rule over Dar al Harb, a desire dating back many centuries before Israel existed and even before both the modern Zionist movement and the United States were founded. So blaming Irgun, Stern, and Israel for Islamist terrorr is blaming the victims.
marcuson said:
The American Palestinian scholar Edward Said summed it up perfectly
when he stated,

"Until the time comes when Israel assumes moral responsibility for
what it has done to the Palestinian people, there can be no end to
the conflict."
Click to expand...
A quote, however biased in support of your argument, is not useful when based a false premise and lacks context of facts of history.
 
Israel and Palestine is not dissimilar to the troubles in Northern Ireland or Kosovo. All sides have a very definite knowledge of their own history, a history that often conflicts with their opposition. Unfortunately so much of what goes on in these places is influenced by outside elements who choose whatever history suits their own ends, or by people who learnt their history from CNN, BBC or from the back of cornflake packets.

Unless you have lived in these places, through the troubled times, I don't think you are qualified to comment accurately on who did what to who and why. Ultimately the future of Israel and the Palestinians is not going to be found in their past. At some point people are going to have to open up a dialogue, compromise and work together to achieve a lasting peace that is beneficial to both sides. Only the people from Israel and Palestine can do that, not the US, Britain, Russia, China or any other country. It might sound like a pipe dream, but it happened in Ireland. Its not easy and it takes time, but it can work if the people are willing.

I say congratulations to Israel on your 60th Birthday, and lets hope that the next 60 years are not as painful as the last.
Quite what this has to do with photography is beyond me....

Simon
 
DavidMaven said:
marcuson said:
lanef said:
pinnacle said:
It's even more tragic when you read archives detailing the Jewish
terrorist groups forcing 750,000 Palestinians out of their homes and
into refugee status in Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Lebanon.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
No Jewish "terrorist groups" forced 750,000 Palestinaians out of
their homes.

Without a doubt, some Arabs of pre-Israel Palestine fled fighting
between Jews and Arabs that Palestinian Arabs started in the Arab
Revolt of the late 1930s. Others were indeed forced out because their
homes and land became battlegrounds when Arab armies attacked a
lawfully constituted state and fought the defense forces of that
nascent state.
Click to expand...
There was no such "lawfully" constituted state. The United Nations was attempting to establish the borders of a Jewish state and a Palestinian state. The Jews ignored the borders in the UN map and just demanded statehood. The UN had already been afraid to step into the fighting because of Jewish bombings of the King David Hotel and the deadly acts against the local Arab population. You are the pot calling the kettle black. I list facts and you ignore reality and the written history.
DavidMaven said:
Many others voluntarily left to avoid the
Arab-initiated fighting,
Click to expand...
You conveniently ignore the fact that Jews had been immigrating to Palestine between 1900 and 1948 in numbers way, way over the quota established in earlier international agreements. The imbalance in the religious numbers brought about the violence that the quotas were there to help keep the peace. The Jews were displacing the existing Arab populations and instigating social unrest. Read the newspapers of the day. If you don't know the facts, don't try and engage in a real conversation.
DavidMaven said:
convinced that Israel would be destroyed
quickly.

After the 1948 war ended, more were forced out of their homes and
lands had property that lay on strategically located positions that
Israel appropriated for its self defense. Regrettable and lamentable,
not not without precedent.

Many or most of the displaced Arabs went to Arab countries that
eventually detained them in "refugee camps". Israel is not
responsible for the conditions in those camps or their stateless
status of the refugees in their host Arab counties.
DavidMaven said:
DavidMaven said:
DavidMaven said:
Israel celebrates and the rest of the world still ignores the cries
of a people that were displaced by Irgun and the Stern gang in the
mid 1940's.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Irgun, Stern, etc. were defending Jewish citizens and residents
against the aforementioned attacks by Arabs, whose leadership just
happened to have sided with the Nazis in WWII. A few of Irgun and
Stern may have indeed committed crimes against some Arabs, but in the
1947-1948 fighting, Irgun fought in defense of a lawfully constituted
state, then was formally dissolved, and became part of the IDF.
Click to expand...
DavidMaven said:
And by the way, you forget to mention injustice done to the many
thousands of Jews who were expelled from Arab countries with only the
clothes on their back, upon the founding of Israel. If you choose to
ignore that, then you manifest an anti-Semitic double standard.
DavidMaven said:
DavidMaven said:
While the US has been backing Israel all the way and no matter what
and the Western world closed a blind eye on the Palestinian
injustice, this has been the source of terrorism that has sadly
spread internationally now.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
By your text, I'm not sure which you consider the "terrorism": the US
Click to expand...
DavidMaven said:
I would argue that the "source of terrorism" is the desire by many
Islamists to impose Islamic rule over Dar al Harb, a desire dating
back many centuries before Israel existed and even before both the
modern Zionist movement and the United States were founded. So
blaming Irgun, Stern, and Israel for Islamist terrorr is blaming the
victims.
DavidMaven said:
The American Palestinian scholar Edward Said summed it up perfectly
when he stated,

"Until the time comes when Israel assumes moral responsibility for
what it has done to the Palestinian people, there can be no end to
the conflict."
Click to expand...
A quote, however biased in support of your argument, is not useful
when based a false premise and lacks context of facts of history.
Click to expand...
You write of a false premise, when it is you who lacks sufficient study and then makes assumptions totally out of touch with the actual historical data.

You need to go read the historical archives in newspapers and historical references and then come back and apologize for being so reckless in your statements.

Dan

--

The 'Camera'...but a tool of the 'Artist'...the creator needs but a chalk and a slate to render immortality...
 
Gediminas 8 said:
lanef said:
Mikhail Bogdanov wrote:

The Russians have lost more citizens in that war than any other
nationalities, but this is never talked about. The Soviet Union lost
the most with around 20 to 25 million deaths,
Click to expand...
Indeed. On the other hand, Stalin's crimes also are seldom
remembered. As is the fact that he had agreed to share Europe with
Hitler before the war, allowing for Germany's unchecked occupation of
its neighbours. What sort of picture do we get? One of two tyrants
waging a war on each other and killing millions of brave soldiers and
innocent people.

Should we celebrate victory over **** Germany? Of course! But there
is another equally dark side to the story, let's not forget it.
Click to expand...
Churchill was all the way suspicious about Stalin while Roosevelt used to admire him to such a way to make fun of Churchill in front of Stalin to gain his friendship. Churchill did warn Roosevelt about Stalin motives but he refused to believe him
 
X-Sync said:
Israel and Palestine is not dissimilar to the troubles in Northern
Ireland or Kosovo. All sides have a very definite knowledge of their
own history, a history that often conflicts with their opposition.
Unfortunately so much of what goes on in these places is influenced
by outside elements who choose whatever history suits their own ends,
or by people who learnt their history from CNN, BBC or from the back
of cornflake packets.
Click to expand...
The only difference here in Ireland and Kosovo one side was not heavily subsidised in weaponry and US dollars to kill as many as possible on the opposing side. When you have a superpower hiding you under his wing, you are above everything, UN resolutions, humanitarian and international laws. You can size more lands, build more settlements on others land and build a wall that goes more on your neighbour land and keep them in occupation for 3 generations. This problem has been made impossible to solve partly because of US one sided foreign policy.
 
Have them send the wambulance.

Thousands of years of intolerance, oppression, and genocide - I'd be pretty peeved if I were a Jew as well.

I personally have no issues with the way Israel currently conducts itself, or has conducted itself for the past 60 years.

In a perfect world, Israel could lay down its arms and both sides could co-exist peacefully. Not going to happen though. Not with Islamic radicals on every front.

Now run along and get back to your comfortable world of idealistic academia - obviously the "real-world" is too much for you to handle.

:^)
 
Albert Einstein, Hannah Arendt and a number of prominent Jewish Americans wrote in the New York Times in 1948 that Herut, then the political party of Yitzhak Shamir and Menachem Begin, two subsequent prime ministers of Israel strongly supported by the US, is ...

"a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the **** and Fascist parties."
 
Snappie Pants said:
Have them send the wambulance.

Thousands of years of intolerance, oppression, and genocide - I'd be
pretty peeved if I were a Jew as well.
Click to expand...
Sure go ahead and ignore the over one million Palestinians that had their land literally stolen out from under them in the 1940s. For the Jews that suffered the holocaust, it is still personal. Are you so dense that you cannot for a moment think about how the Palestinian farmer that had his land stolen feels? It is very personal to him. It's not about thousands of years of history, it's about why can't a world court help me obtain a just hearing? Why can't I have my farm back?
Snappie Pants said:
I personally have no issues with the way Israel currently conducts
itself, or has conducted itself for the past 60 years.
Click to expand...
Well, that says a lot about you now, doesn't it? One bully validating his behavior using the status quo.
Snappie Pants said:
In a perfect world, Israel could lay down its arms and both sides
could co-exist peacefully. Not going to happen though. Not with
Islamic radicals on every front.
Click to expand...
Gee, I wonder how in the world did they become so radical? Maybe, just maybe when an entire world turns it's collective cheek away from listening to a million people asking for justice, you are going to cause a little bit of a problem...?
Snappie Pants said:
Now run along and get back to your comfortable world of idealistic
academia - obviously the "real-world" is too much for you to handle.
Click to expand...
It's precisely the "real world" that we have now caused by people who can't muster an original thought that is going to continue on it's merry course until something changes.

Since you are obviously incapable of thinking independently, go ahead and plod along your current course with your blinders firmly in place. There just may be enough of you to keep a lot of people in the Islamic world angry enough to find the key to some very dangerous weapons.

It hasn't worked in sixty years, isn't that enough? Oh no, you want another sixty just like the previous.

Dan
Snappie Pants said:
:^)
Click to expand...
--

The 'Camera'...but a tool of the 'Artist'...the creator needs but a chalk and a slate to render immortality...
 
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