Full frame - you'll need those 24 megapixels

Now if you want grainy ilford b&w portraits (and some most def do),
you go with that. If you want high ISO clean shots, digital is your
dream come true.

If you want super fine tonal and colour graduations, digital is way
way off film in that regard. Its very easy to see this.

As said, pros and cons, hence..why some are using film still.
Agreed. For myself I don't care for much of the grainy B&W image or even much B&W although I probably have done more B&W in my life than color. I do love Velvia and I do love the results I use to get from the 3M 1000 and 640 slide films from 20 years ago. What I love most about digital is the control I have over the final out put.
 
See my post below, "No film can do better than this". The picture I
posted with it is one of Leslie's husband, Harald, in their kitchen
as I was chatting with him as he was making espresso. This was not a
planned photo, I had the camera sitting on the counter and my hand
accidentally hit the shutter. The snap, at ISO3200 has far superior
IQ compared to any that 1600 or 3200 color film could ever produce.
I'm waiting for some new photos from Leslie. I have a profile of her which Bill sent me (he writes regularly for our pro magazine) and the pictures really don't work - they are from the film era and they will look very degraded in print. I have to say that Bill's latest digital work, and his scans in the last 18 months, have been far better than some of the work 3-4 years ago. I have worked from his prints directly in the pre-digital era (hand retouched too) and those were never a problem; he then started getting lab scans from negs, I think, and I didn't like them as much.

Bill called me last month to say that something would be coming from Leslie to update the article I have never yet run, but so far, nothing's arrived.

David

--

Publishing & Editing Photoworld (photoclubalpha.com), dPhotoexpert.com and Master Photo Digital - currently writing tests for f2 and the BJP
 
It does have the sound of, "throw a lot of pixels and frames per
second at a scene and salvage something out of it," the kind of
photography some people on this board have claimed to be afraid of in
the future......
--
Gary W.
Gary,

I agree...that's what David's last post stated, more or less. Except that it's a trade between MP, FPS, and ISO. You can't have all three. The D3 gives up MP for FPS and ISO. Dave and Ken are arguing for MP above all else. I guess for their situations (football and studio), it makes sense for them...although I still think wasted complete frames (FPS) would be more useful than wasted pixels on every frame (MP) in that sports context. But it's an even trade either way.

I still contend, however, that every argument they've made buys them "margin for sloppiness" at the expense of ISO performance that buys me actual new imaging capabilities. They can always find ways to get their shot with better framing, longer lenses, or luck if they had fewer MP (or APS sensors). But I can't take 10 shots at ISO 400 and take one shot that's as good as one ISO3200 shot, if that makes sense. If the ISO ain't there, no amount of luck, additional frames, or additional margin for crop will bring it back.

Sure, if there were free lunch, we'd all love 100mp on every shot. We'd use a 28mm prime and never have to carry big glass or frame or pan or anything. But if it means expensive cameras, extra memory cards, extra processing time, slower frame rates, and pisspoor low-light performance, I'd say it's not worth the cost.

And I still say it allows a level of laziness. ;-)

Greg
 
Dead right - any lab printing optically is now charging premium prices!

4000dpi is not enough, but you should see the best film scans
exceeding the 7D in visible details (at 4000dpi I do not think many
slides will match an A700). 5400dpi was just enough to allow
Fujichrome 100 to resolve better than our forthcoming 24 megapixel
DSLRs are expected to, and - I think - to resolve beyond the finest
detail shown by the film.
But in the end, at anything over 300dpi, we can't see it anyways, right? I consider scanning my MF negs at 40mp, but if I'm not going to print 16x20, it's wasted, is it not? Maybe under a microscope it'd show, if you had the printing capability.

This is just talking detail, however. I can't say if optical printing preserves any more of the color accuracy.

Greg
 
Dead right - any lab printing optically is now charging premium prices!

4000dpi is not enough, but you should see the best film scans
exceeding the 7D in visible details (at 4000dpi I do not think many
slides will match an A700). 5400dpi was just enough to allow
Fujichrome 100 to resolve better than our forthcoming 24 megapixel
DSLRs are expected to, and - I think - to resolve beyond the finest
detail shown by the film.
But in the end, at anything over 300dpi, we can't see it anyways,
right? I consider scanning my MF negs at 40mp, but if I'm not going
to print 16x20, it's wasted, is it not? Maybe under a microscope
it'd show, if you had the printing capability.

This is just talking detail, however. I can't say if optical
printing preserves any more of the color accuracy.
I've found that many scanners work faster and produce their best results at maximum resolution, so generally I scan that way and reduce the file size later if I do not need to keep a 200MB scan

In theory, higher resolution also produces better colour/texture but not if the grain gets aliased. The Plustek 7200 dpi film scanners are good at showing grain but making detail look soft!

David

--

Publishing & Editing Photoworld (photoclubalpha.com), dPhotoexpert.com and Master Photo Digital - currently writing tests for f2 and the BJP
 
What happened to Foveon? Why is it going nowhere?
If we must have that many pixels, do it in a way where we can use
them all.
--
See my galleries at http://www.dennismullen.com and
http://www.pbase.com/dennismullen “Those who would sacrifice
liberty for safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” - Ben
Franklin.
--
Direct your eye right inward, and you'll find a thousand
regions in your mind Yet undiscovered. Travel them, and
be Expert in home-cosmography.
-H.D. Thoreau
 
but scanning or printing on digital equipment is still just digital,
and will probably lose those great assets of film, won't it??
I've often pondered that and I can say that its some and some. I doubt that you can make a scan better than the neg especially in B&W and printed on FB paper. Saying that, when you scan a negative it may then have passed into the digital domain, but it doesn't suddenly take on the character of a DSLR, it still pretty much looks like film.
Take a look at this shot:



Guess the film?

Just because I scanned it doesn't mean it loses that look, and printed carefully can still look similar to a conventional optical print.

In fact my hardest task is to find inkjet paper that looks as good as FB paper, Multigrade RC yes otherwise no.
Film still looks like film, even when scanned- to me at least.
Mark

--
http://www.photo-utopia.blogspot.com/
 
David Kilpatrick wrote:
The Plustek 7200 dpi film scanners are
good at showing grain but making detail look soft!
There are many things to say about the plustek scanners, one of which is to get your settings sorted out with the software.

And that goes for silverfast or vuescan, esp colour management. And auto sharpen is best left off on silverfast, it does go OTT on the grain, oversharpens IMO.

On the other hand, they def do not produce soft details. And I compare to stuff like the higher end epson flatbeds, which deserve that much more..def soft scans on that one.

Considering the cost of the nikon scanners and other ones, its very hard to be too hard on the plustek ones, esp in the value for money dept. Scanning at 7200 dpi is not something I often do, little point for most shots. Its a better scanner for negatives than slides, but soft is something I could not ever use.

--



I am not the 'Ghost Hunter', nor am I the Irish actor in the 'Quiet Man' ;-)
 
Gregory King wrote:
Dave and Ken are arguing
for MP above all else.
mp on its own means little, and I expected more from both those posters..who really should know that as much as anyone else. Image quality is not just resolution, its just a strange way of thinking.

What use a high mp FF camera with lousy DR and poor colour graduations?

Or a high ISO that is not very good.

I guess we shall see when it turns up, sure if they can get a good mp no. up there, and good DR, and good colours, great.

But lets stop this nonsense about megapixels and resolution being the only thing that matters, in fact, its one of the less important aspects.

--



I am not the 'Ghost Hunter', nor am I the Irish actor in the 'Quiet Man' ;-)
 
I am planning to get the "A900" among the first. I currently use film as well as my KM7D for work. After getting the 7D (3000x2000pixels @ 6MP) I thought to myself that my next digital shall be FF and (6000x4000 double the dimensions) - and it shall be all that I'll ever need from a camera. I'm delighted that Sony actually are about to launch that exact camera.. :)

My current 6MP resolution is definitely too little in many cases. The 24MP will be ideal. Ideal in many ways; it will allow some cropping, let's say about 25% perhaps; but more importantly it will also allow downsizing whatever PP:d picture to a perfect 6Mpix image, with great sharpness and reduced noise.

The pixel density will be around that of an 10MP APS-C sensor and if noise performance and IQ is about the same as the A700, which one could assume, then it will be perfect for me. For casual and basic work 6MP is more than enough (actually 4MP is the normal hi-res I give customers) - and downsized from 24MP raw, they will be superb. While a picture processed and fixed as 24MP, will print very nicely from a downsized 12MP picture.

So, what I'm trying to say is that the extra downsizing margin of such a high MP sensor will be very useful also when you don't "need" the full size images. It will dramatically increase detail to noise ratio and simply hide possible noise from a denser chip.

-----------------------------------------------
Georg Peranen
http://koti.welho.com/wel00296/
 
So, what I'm trying to say is that the extra downsizing margin of
such a high MP sensor will be very useful also when you don't "need"
the full size images. It will dramatically increase detail to noise
ratio and simply hide possible noise from a denser chip.
This is true...but the question is always what penalty was paid in IQ over having native larger MP. I don't think there is a definitive answer.

If I could be assured of getting D3-like capability (in both ISO and FPS) in the A900 if I set it to 12mp mode, I'd accept that. But I'd still want an on-board flash. ;-)

Greg
 
I've found that many scanners work faster and produce their best
results at maximum resolution, so generally I scan that way and
reduce the file size later if I do not need to keep a 200MB scan
Maximum native, right? I think mine will do 4800 or 6400, but it "allows" me to select 12800. Which I accidentally did once on a print and it almost blew up my computer. ;-) I have the Epson V500.
In theory, higher resolution also produces better colour/texture but
not if the grain gets aliased. The Plustek 7200 dpi film scanners are
good at showing grain but making detail look soft!
So do you downres right away? I notice that film scans in general, especially at the higher resolutions, don't sharpen up the same way (if at all) as digital files. Not sure if it's just because I need to find different settings due to higher res, or if the noise/grain "discontinuities" is affected the ability to sharpen.

Some day I'll do identical film and digital shots to compare.

Greg
 
I notice that film scans in general,
especially at the higher resolutions, don't sharpen up the same way
(if at all) as digital files. Not sure if it's just because I need
to find different settings due to higher res, or if the noise/grain
"discontinuities" is affected the ability to sharpen.
Are you talking about the V500? If you are I have that model and find that nothing is critically sharp possibly due to the film holder and the flatbed design.

I have seen some output from better scanners like Imacon and I'll say there is a world of difference, they sharpen up fine.

In the main though scanners seem to emphasize grain, even the little V500 for all its lack of sharpness.
I really only use it for MF and prints smaller than A4.

Also larger files need a higher radius setting with film, my digital (10mp) needs say 60, 1.5,0 USM MF scans seem to need 100, 4, 0.
Mark

--
http://www.photo-utopia.blogspot.com/
 
I agree with what you've stated here but I'll say that the A700 images have more noise than the 7D images at ISO 400. So I'm hoping that the AX00 will be better than the A700.

Cheers!
The pixel density will be around that of an 10MP APS-C sensor and if
noise performance and IQ is about the same as the A700, which one
could assume, then it will be perfect for me. For casual and basic
work 6MP is more than enough (actually 4MP is the normal hi-res I
give customers) - and downsized from 24MP raw, they will be superb.
While a picture processed and fixed as 24MP, will print very nicely
from a downsized 12MP picture.
-----------------------------------------------
Georg Peranen
http://koti.welho.com/wel00296/
--
Direct your eye right inward, and you'll find a thousand
regions in your mind Yet undiscovered. Travel them, and
be Expert in home-cosmography.
-H.D. Thoreau
 
Lord knows we don't actually want to view an image, its just enough
to know it is there on the tiny slide in a little box.. what a silly
attitude. There is not a use for an image that does not invovled
scanning it to a file for its output.

Ok a few still may get printed and mounted on wall.. but the images
that will be seen by the most people will be in print or on a
monitor...
Ah yes, the thousands upon thousands of images that, back in the days of film where you had to be really good to get your prints into a gallery, wouldn't rate.

This thread typifies some of the issues of digital photography nowadays, one of which is people are able to produce a multitude of unremarkable images and display them for all the world to see.

So what?

It's one thing to display images of personal value for others to share in your life. It's another thing to post dozens of mediocre images on a website and assume that you are offering quality photos. Just look at how many truly dull, unispired shots are posted on these forums.

This has ALWAYS been a problem in photography. (or just about any other creative medium). Simply by accomplishing the basic process, some people assume they have done something that has inherent merit and quality for everyone. That's simply not the case. My friends and family think some of my powwow photos deserve to be printed in magazines or in galleries. I disagree, because I recognize the shortcomings they have in either technical quality or composition.

In short, just because a person can take a technically excellent photo in digital doesn't mean the rest of the world should be impressed, if the photo lacks any true artistic merit.

And therein is the crux of this debate. People crow on about the superior quality of digital, based on specs and pixel peeping, without any apparent concern for aesthetics or artistry. (But, that's to be expected on these forums which are mostly devoted to gear, for gear's sake.)

The fact is, the ease with which digital allows for a great number of technically competent images to be produced and displayed is, aesthetically speaking, digital's own worst enemy. When someone (on another thread) bemoans how they fill up their CF cards in one day (taking what must be 400 to 500 captures) then I have to ask myself "What the heck is he shooting?" Then when people doing that say they have "a couple of really good keepers" my suspicions that they are snapping anything that looks the least bit interesting, and sorting through the images letter for descent shots, is confirmed.

Now, don't get me wrong: if that is how a person prefers to work and is satisfied with the results, great. If he/she happens to also produce images truly worth displaying to others for more than emotional reasons, even better.

But please, don't assume that making 500 captures to come up with half a dozen decent images is evidence of competency in the craft of photgraphy.

Therein is my point: person A takes 500 digital shots and comes up with half a dozen good ones. He claims his digital is superior to film. Person B shoots film: the constraints of that medium force him to take 100 shots for the 500 the dslr shooter takes. Person B has thought through the process more, and as a result comes up with 20 keepers compared to person A's half dozen. (By this I mean images that would be considered pro-calibre, "money shots" or worthy of publication by a third party) Who is the better photographer?

Digital has many advantages over film. Aesthetically, though, it's wrong to make blanket statements or assumptions that digital is inherently superior to film.

Btw the person saying that making a print from a slide involves the same process as making a print from digital must not know how "wet" labs work. Also must not know why there are still a great many pros, many of them in the fine art field, who still prefer shooting medium and large format chromes or negs to digital specifically because they are "merely" going to produce gallery quality prints to display on gallery walls (or on the walls of those who purchase them).

So a couple of responses to my comment indicate two things: first, not reading that I pointed out that film and digital give decidedly different results in certain applications. Second, perhaps not understanding that photography is much bigger than slapping a couple of decent shots on your picasa or pbase page.

Perhaps a little less hubris and competitiveness, and a little more photography for the sake of pure enjoyment is in order for some people?
 
I notice that film scans in general,
especially at the higher resolutions, don't sharpen up the same way
(if at all) as digital files. Not sure if it's just because I need
to find different settings due to higher res, or if the noise/grain
"discontinuities" is affected the ability to sharpen.
Are you talking about the V500? If you are I have that model and find
that nothing is critically sharp possibly due to the film holder and
the flatbed design.
Yeah, I was worried about that. What if I pour water on it for a wetscan? ;-) I hear the V700 will do that. I can get a ANR glass holder I think...any idea on the benefits of that one?
I have seen some output from better scanners like Imacon and I'll say
there is a world of difference, they sharpen up fine.
In the main though scanners seem to emphasize grain, even the little
V500 for all its lack of sharpness.
I really only use it for MF and prints smaller than A4.
Also larger files need a higher radius setting with film, my digital
(10mp) needs say 60, 1.5,0 USM MF scans seem to need 100, 4, 0.
Excellent, thanks. I figured the radius had to be increased. Interesting that LR only appears to go to 3.0, but I'll probably use CS3 to do most of the heavy lifting on my MF TIFF's anyways.

Enough acronyms for you? ;-)
 
There was a thread by a fellow with I believe a Nikon D80. He was having some issues with 35mm shadow detail and color balance when compared to the digital. I went back in this morning to see if he posted the comparison shots and noticed the whole thread was deleted (surprise). Do you know what happened to get it pulled?
 

Keyboard shortcuts

Back
Top