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TZ5 - Quality of LCD in sunny days

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No doubt this explains why users of large plate cameras, with ground glass screens, use a lightproof cloth over their heads (and rear of camera!) when composing their shot!
 
NIK11 said:
There is a distinction to be made between being able to shoot in
difficult lighting - by improvising - and being able to use the LCD
properly. In other words, 'never missing a shot' in harsh conditions
is not in itself an indicator that the LCD works well. It could imply
the user has blindly fired-off many shots then, with PP, gets a
result. Little or no help from the LCD in this case.
Click to expand...
I won't argue that it's difficult (sometimes very difficult) to use any digicam LCD in bright sunlight, without aid of a viewfinder. But, like anything else, you (meaning me, maybe not others) may be able to adapt and develop a technique for doing this that gets you many good shots.

Your results may vary, but here's what I generally do in challenging, super-bright situations. The TZ5 Power LCD or Overhead LCD mode takes getting use too, but really helps. Use your own eyes as the "optical viewfinder" to compose the shot, and visualize the major focal points of the scene (foreground, background, think of "rule-of-thirds," etc). With those points in your mind, you can usually (with your visualization) see enough detail in the LCD to compose & capture the shot. Heck, isn't one photographic technique squinting with your eyes so you don't see the detail, but instead see the overall composition. Yes, it's a little bit "point & pray", but like oldjim I pray for good parking spots, too ; )

If you can't adapt to LCD only, get a G9 (and adapt to its' 80% coverage viewfinder, and larger size which is a deal-breaker for me for a take-anywhere camera, lack of 10x zoom, wide angle, etc) or get one of the many other cameras that have a viewfinder (but don't have many of the other key TZ(5) features). And Panasonic, don't add a viewfinder to the TZ5, it'll make it just a little too big. You have the FZ series for that.

Cheers.
-M1
 
Trevor G said:
Thinking of getting a TZ5 but wonder if the LCD hoods that are
available (like a basic Delkin 3" type as shown in the link) actually
work.

Is there a reason why no one here has tried one?
Click to expand...
Contrary to popular belief the TZ3(TZ5 same) LCD performs quite well with direct overhead sunlight striking its face. So there is not a great benefit from fitting a shade.

The problem occurs when the sun is low or when surrounded by reflective surfaces whereupon the users face it lit up like a beacon and reflected in the LCD. A Mexican Sombreo hat to shade the user's face would be more appropiate.

Nick
 
mackey1001 said:
mackey1001 said:
There is a distinction to be made between being able to shoot in
difficult lighting - by improvising - and being able to use the LCD
properly. In other words, 'never missing a shot' in harsh conditions
is not in itself an indicator that the LCD works well. It could imply
the user has blindly fired-off many shots then, with PP, gets a
result. Little or no help from the LCD in this case.
Click to expand...
I won't argue that it's difficult (sometimes very difficult) to use
any digicam LCD in bright sunlight, without aid of a viewfinder. But,
like anything else, you (meaning me, maybe not others) may be able
to adapt and develop a technique for doing this that gets you many
good shots.

Your results may vary, but here's what I generally do in challenging,
super-bright situations. The TZ5 Power LCD or Overhead LCD mode takes
getting use too, but really helps. Use your own eyes as the "optical
viewfinder" to compose the shot, and visualize the major focal points
of the scene (foreground, background, think of "rule-of-thirds,"
etc). With those points in your mind, you can usually (with your
visualization) see enough detail in the LCD to compose & capture the
shot. Heck, isn't one photographic technique squinting with your eyes
so you don't see the detail, but instead see the overall composition.
Yes, it's a little bit "point & pray", but like oldjim I pray for
good parking spots, too ; )
Click to expand...
Thanks for your good advice, I really have tried all that and yes it sometimes works.

However let me give you just one of many examples when it does not. I was trying to capture a photo of a statue with the sun (low) behind it and someone silhouetted gazing up. I wanted to adjust my position see which parts of the bronze glinted whilst ensuring the person was looking up and not away. It was impossible to see anything in the TZ3 LCD and by the time I decided to look up and shoot blind with the widest angle set, it was too late. The person drifted away. Could have hung around for the next tourist I suppose, but no one else in sight so moved on. Another lost shot.
Now I reckon I would have got that shot even with a small inaccurate OVF.

Nick
 
David Wyman said:
Nick, you are saying that the problem occurs when you are essentially
looking into the sun, coming at you from a low angle?
Click to expand...
Exactly right. It seems that if your face is brighter than the LCD image then the LCD turns into a mirror. Similar effect as seeing your reflection in a shop window if you are outside on a bright sunny day and you are brighter than the ambient lighting inside.

No LCD is perfect, but the best from Canon and Casio seem to be better than Pana in these harsh conditions. There is no antireflective/antiglare coating on Pana and you can see its gloss finish. Pity.

Nick
 
NIK11 said:
I think you are extremely lucky. Some people's eyesight clearly works
better than other's in bright harsh lighting. Also some people (not
suggesting you) seem to be in denial with LCD performance in harsh
lighting, or perhaps they never shoot in these conditions.

Nick
Click to expand...
Don't worry, complaining is something I do rather excessively, so I would never deny something as big as not being able to see the LCD. Maybe I am just lucky - I think I have been in quite a few harsh lighting situations such as being on the lake in the early afternoon hours, middle-of-day outdoor concerts, etc.

That's why i've never really gotten what all the fuss what about in relation to LCD screen quality
 
Nick,

I waited until the sun was low on my side of the pond to see if I could duplicate your problem. I could.

And I think I know what is happening, and it may not be exactly what you think. I base this on what I saw this afternoon, and experiences with a lot of photographers over the years who have encountered your problem in a slightly different way (I have conducted photography tours for many years). There may, or may not, be a fix. And it may be age dependent.

First, the test conditions: I held the camera in front of my face, with the sun in front of me.

Yes, there was a reflection of my face staring back at me from the glossy LCD. Because I was looking into the sun, I had trouble even seeing the LCD at first. I could see myself. The bright sunlight shining directly into the lens washed out the image that I could see - barely - on the LCD.

Repositioning slightly so that the sun was no longer shining directly into my eyes, but was still on my face, the reflection was still there, and still masking the washed out LCD.

Then I turned 90 degrees to the sun, so that half my face was lit. I could still see a significant reflection. The reflection did indeed seem to swamp at least half the now otherwise normal appearing LCD. In fact, my reflection dominated the LCD, even though it did not fill it completely. I would have that I would have been able to at least see half the LCD screen clearly. But no, I couldn't, there was just a dark blob to the left of the reflection of my face.

I've seen this visual effect before, with my ancient Rolleiflex twin lens reflex cameras. I have a special binocular hood for them, with a magnifier to enlarge the viewing mirror. The mirror is a few inches from the person looking into that binocular hood. The image of the world beyond, that's being focused on, is at least a few feet out from the camera.

Some people have difficulty focusing their eyes on the image in the mirror (also known as a ground glass or viewfinder - it's a 2.5 inch mirror). Their eyes automatically attempt to focus on the ground glass itself, which is inches away from their eyes, rather than focusing on the scene in reflection, which is some distance out from the camera.

Do you follow?

The inability to focus on something beyond the ground glass is similar to what I encountered when I looked into the TZ5's LCD, at least when I had my face in or partially in the sun. I tended to focus my eyes on the surface of the LCD itself. When I made a conscious effort to look "into" the LCD at the scene in the distance - which was darker than my reflection - my face disappeared! After a few moments of practice, I could switch back and forth at will. There was my face in reflection one moment, and then I refocused on the scene beyond my reflection, and the scene popped into view.

I think this is what you are encountering. I think you are not able to look into the LCD at the image that is there. You are looking instead at the bright reflection of yourself.

This is just a guess, but are you older rather than younger? Say 50 or older? It turns out that younger people who've looked into my bino hood on my Rollei can always accommodate their focus to see what's beyond the ground glass. On the other hand, many people over 50 or so seem to have difficulty focusing on anything other than the surface of the mirror.

Here's my suggestion. When the sun is low, turn about 90 degrees - or even more - to the direction of the sun. That way only part of your reflection is going to appear on your LCD. You will see your reflection. Practice trying to look past your reflection into the darker portion of the LCD. I think, with practice, and possibly in a very short time, you will be able to switch off looking at yourself, and be able to see the view beyond.

Now, looking straight into the sun is another story - keeping the sun out of your eyes as well as not overloading the circuits of your poor TZ5 will be a challange, much less not seeing your own, handsome reflection. I think I won't be making many of those kinds of photographs. But I will be on guard now when the sun is low to look beyond my own reflection! After all, some of the best light occurs when the sun is low, and I don't intend to put my new little Tizzy in my pocket at that "magic hour."

Good luck.

Dave

P.S. I'm over 50



--
http://www.pbase.com/davewyman
http://www.davewyman.com
 
David Wyman said:
And I think I know what is happening, >
Here's my suggestion. When the sun is low, turn about 90 degrees - or
even more - to the direction of the sun. That way only part of your
reflection is going to appear on your LCD. You will see your
reflection. Practice trying to look past your reflection into the
darker portion of the LCD. I think, with practice, and possibly in a
very short time, you will be able to switch off looking at yourself,
and be able to see the view beyond.
Click to expand...
Thanks for a very detailed analysis and report, even if I'm not Nick. ;-)
--
Cheers

Trevor Ginaus

http://trevorg.smugmug.com
 
David Wyman said:
Nick,

I waited until the sun was low on my side of the pond to see if I
could duplicate your problem. I could.

And I think I know what is happening, and it may not be exactly what
you think. I base this on what I saw this afternoon, and experiences
with a lot of photographers over the years who have encountered your
problem in a slightly different way (I have conducted photography
tours for many years). There may, or may not, be a fix. And it may be
age dependent.
Click to expand...
I too suspect it is age related. It would help to explain why we read such diverse opinions about particular LCD's. I am 60+, wear reading glasses and my optician remarked that I seem to have above average sensitivity to (bright) light . Usually I wear reading glasses when trying to make out what is happening on the LCD.
David Wyman said:
Some people have difficulty focusing their eyes on the image in the
mirror (also known as a ground glass or viewfinder - it's a 2.5 inch
mirror). Their eyes automatically attempt to focus on the ground
glass itself, which is inches away from their eyes, rather than
focusing on the scene in reflection, which is some distance out from
the camera.

Do you follow?
Click to expand...
Yes, indeed. A bit like being blinded by oncoming headlights at night and concentrating on the road in front. The one query I would raise on this point is that with true optics/distances the eye can be pursuaded to focus beyond the first piece of glass into infinity. But with the LCD there is a physical barrier and unlike optics, the viewed image is not 3 dimensional but 2, and you cannot easily pursuade the eye focus thro' it because there is nothing beyond. You can trick the brain into thinking it is 3 dimensional like TV games, but I doubt if the eye's focal length changes.

To complicate matters further, I have to wear reading glasses to see the LCD. If I did then try to focus beyond LCD distance everything is obviously out of focus because of the limitation of the glasses.

Thanks for your help, found your suggestions interesting. I think we need to pursuade these DC designers to employ some older users who do not have nimble fingers and perfect eyesight. Then we might see the emergence of more user friendly devices. In the meantime I tend to favour an OVF.

Nick
 
what with the target demographic for P&S cams likely to be younger, those of us whose best eyesight left us XX years ago aren't likely to be considered heavily when it comes time to sit down at the drafting board and grab the T-square and slide rule to design a new Brownie. :-)

Tim
--
http://www.pbase.com/k1br
E510/E330/C5050/D550/FZ50/TZ3/GX100/F45FD
 
Nick said:
The one query I would raise on this point is that with true optics/distances the eye can be pursuaded to focus beyond the first piece of glass into infinity. But with the LCD there is a physical barrier and unlike optics, the viewed image is not 3 dimensional but 2, and you cannot easily pursuade the eye focus thro' it because there is nothing beyond
Click to expand...
Yes, we're stuck looking at one plane of focus on our LCDs, whereas with my old Rolleiflex, we need to change the focus. In either case, though, I think it might be a psychological phenomenon related to age.

I'll experiment this afternoon by holding the camera farther from my face. I'm thinking a little distance from the eyeballs to the LCD might help. Of course, that would mean not be able to enjoy the benefit of the large LCD.

--
http://www.pbase.com/davewyman
http://www.davewyman.com
 
If you hold your TZ5 six inches in front of your face, the reflection of your face is going to require focusing your eyes at 12 inches. That is a significant difference. You involuntarily want to focus on the reflection at 12 inches, while the LCD is at six inches.

I think this problem becomes magnified with age, although I don't know if it's for physical or psychological reasons or both.
--
http://www.pbase.com/davewyman
http://www.davewyman.com
 
NIK11 said:
I think we need to pursuade these DC designers to employ some older users who do not have nimble fingers and perfect eyesight. Then we might see the
emergence of more user friendly devices. In the meantime I tend to
favour an OVF.
Click to expand...
Amen to that one. It has gotten to the point that the ergonomics of the camera are as or more important to me than the IQ. I don't care if they came out with a small sensor camera that took dlsr quality pics (wish, wish) if it wasn't comfortable to use, I wouldn't buy it.

As arthritis settles in the hands the ease of jog dials, buttons, etc, becomes more important. On my H9, I find myself using the EVF more and more because I can adjust if for the Presbyopia.

The mfgs need to get a clue as to what age of demographics are buying expensive cameras (on a regular basis!) and start making them more "universal design" oriented.
LG
NIK11 said:
Nick
Click to expand...
 
David Wyman said:
If you hold your TZ5 six inches in front of your face, the reflection
of your face is going to require focusing your eyes at 12 inches.
That is a significant difference. You involuntarily want to focus on
the reflection at 12 inches, while the LCD is at six inches.
Click to expand...
Yes, I can do this occasionally. However, when shooting into sun with a bright/reflective background behind you (often the case because the sun is striking directly onto vertical surfaces) the bright reflection on the LCD will likely overwhelm the darker shadows of the shot you are trying to frame regardless of the focal length your eyes adopt. Isn't this how some of the great disppearing magic tricks are done - 45 deg glass with dark and light backgrounds?
David Wyman said:
I think this problem becomes magnified with age, although I don't
know if it's for physical or psychological reasons or both.
Click to expand...
Not sure where the psychology comes in. A year ago I captured hundreds of shots in harsh lighting in India with a Ricoh R1 using the tiny squinty OVF, mostly. Most people on these forums won't even try an OVF. The TZ3 is a great travel DC and I am willing to persevere with these things, but that reflective LCD just completely beats me in certain lighting.

One final tip, wearing a large hat and shading one's eyes and face sometimes helps.

Nick
 
mackey1001 said:
If you can't adapt to LCD only, get a G9 (and adapt to its' 80%
coverage viewfinder, and larger size which is a deal-breaker for me
for a take-anywhere camera, lack of 10x zoom, wide angle, etc) or get
one of the many other cameras that have a viewfinder (but don't have
many of the other key TZ(5) features). And Panasonic, don't add a
viewfinder to the TZ5, it'll make it just a little too big. You have
the FZ series for that.

Cheers.
-M1
Click to expand...
Hi Mackey,
your thoughts were exactely as mine!

I am a very happy owner of a FZ18 but i am looking for a camera for my girlfriend.

She would like to have something smaller than mine but with the same characteristics.
I know that it is not possible and then the TZ5 choice...maybe!

The G9 was the other possible solution, but i have read that it starts to have noise from iso 200...and this is not acceptable for the price that it costs.
Moreover it hasn't the wide angle that it is a plus for sure...!!!

So the TZ5 is my first choice now...but i am loking for something else that could be similar to this one but with the VF...
...but it seems to be impossible...

However thanks to everybody for all your helpful comments !

The Beginner
 
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