This forum suffers from a real plaque: Fanboyism!

I think this phenomen was always there, but in the last time it has grown very quickly. As the different brands bring out a lot of new DSLRs with features that others don´t have but this one have other features it seems to be that a lot of people are becoming paranoid about "their" brand.

There are some forums with suffer more from fanboyism as others but overall it seems that most people aren´t able to have an neutral view of their camera.

Who hasn´t seen this yet?
The Canon people say:

• we have the best high ISO
• you want to have an D300 instead of a 40D? Let´s get one and go away, you troll

The Nikon people say:

• Nikon has equal high ISO
• you want to switch to Canon, because you think they have better high ISO performance and the cameras are better? You have no clue about photography, it isn´t the camera, take your Canon and go away, you troll

The Olympus people say:

• who needs higher ISOs?
• but my E3 is good
• we have the best lenses
• you want to switch to Nikon or Canon because the 4/3 system doesn´t offer enough lenses, high ISO etc.? You have no clue about photography, it isn´t the camera, take your Canon or Nikon and go away, you troll

The Pentax people say:

• who needs an fast AF?
• we have the Limited primes, haha
• you aren´t satisfied with the K20D? You have to learn it, otherwise you are a troll from the Canon forum

The Sigma people say:

• we have the Foveon sensor, this is so much better as Bayer
• we don´t need a fast camera
• why should Sigma bring out a faster camera if there is no competition in IQ?
• you want a faster camera? Buy one and go away, you troll

And so on. Really, that is absolutely annoying. Why can´t people accept that there are sometimes better cameras as "theirs"? Why is it so difficult to see that everyone has other needs?

Really, think about this. I thought we are in a serious forum, but in some cases I really doubt this...

--
You made a picture...fine!

I agree with a line that you repeat in your post: go away you troll.

Doug

No, I think Lupti is right. Another example: digital only versus film.

And up versus down

if you'd use an Apple computer and an Olympus DSLR then you would be so testy. Your world would all be set right.
--
Patrick T. Kelly
Oaxaca, Mexico

expensive fast glass that I can't afford
--
Check my Photo Blog
http://parisea.blogspot.com/

There's not much hope for the violence that abounds (genocide, sectarian violence, etc.), if even like-minded folks behave like this.

But, such is human nature, and we have to deal with this (be it online or personally) every day.

--
...Bob, NYC

Galleries: http://www.pbase.com/btullis

Lupti-------------------You are so right. Interestingly the loudest noises seem to come from the owners of cameras from companies with the smallest market share.I shall refrain from naming them lest I inflame them into voicing further justification.
--
PJT

Wombat 52 said:

Lupti-------------------You are so right. Interestingly the loudest
noises seem to come from the owners of cameras from companies with
the smallest market share.I shall refrain from naming them lest I
inflame them into voicing further justification.

Click to expand...

.....That is so very true!

.....Even in the real world outside of cyberspace, Pentaxians as a group are defensive and insecure. Don't even think about asking them what kind of camera is that you've got there....oh really....a Pentax?

It also suffers from something else: people who can't spell and don't know the difference between two words of widely differing meanings. Plaque is found adhered to teeth and arteries. Plague is a disease. Oh yeah, it also suffers from trolls.

--
----------------
http://www.pbase.com/tmalcom/

Masters of the Obvious
--
Gallery at http://kingofthebeasts.smugmug.com

People tend to get emotionally invested in their systems. When you question why they would go with a specific camera, you are questioning their judgment and they don't like it.
--



'I cried because I had no E-3. Then I met a man with no E-510'

Olympus E-510, E-410, E-330, Pentax K10D, 42 lenses of various types

The problem is people not supporting their claims with evidence, and not posting pics where the differences between systems could have the slightest impact in their photography.

My favorite example is 4/3 "fanboys" saying how FF has soft and mushy corners. The "evidence" that they "produce" is soft and mushy corners at DOFs that 4/3 cannot even attain, which, of course, is bogus.

But, since there are instances where FF will have softer corners even at the same DOF than 4/3, let's consider that case. First off, the fanboys don't want to acknowledge that FF is sharper elsewhere in the frame. Secondly, they don't post any pics where the extreme corners matter anyway, so what's the point?

The point is that it's OK to be a fanboy -- I'm a 5D fanboy myself. But to make claims without evidence, make claims with spurious evidence, and to ignore counterexamples rather than acknowledge the exceptions, well, that's just bad form.

But it is human nature. Why, I don't know, but it has nothing to do with cameras. It's rampant everywhere you look.

So, my solution is that you ignore people that cannot produce valid evidence to support their claims, and produce images where the differences matter anyway. Of course, that's advice that I've found hard to follow myself. : )

Oh -- some of my pics of evidence and utility? Sure:

FF corners:

http://www.pbase.com/joemama/24l

A comparison between 4/3 and FF for WA:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=25380951

FF UWA pics where the corners don't even matter anyway (even for the seep DOF pics) and demonstrating the utility of ultra shallow DOF for UWA (which some say is "useless"):

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1029&message=22428283
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1029&message=25389862

Pics from several formats showing that all formats have a place:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=26114171

There's no problem with taking pride in your gear. But this is a photography website -- post pics! If you want to say that A is better than B, post an image that demonstrates that. At least link one someone else has taken. If you can't, then who even cares if A is better than B?

--
--joe

http://www.josephjamesphotography.com
http://www.pbase.com/joemama/

Lupti said:

I think this phenomen was always there, but in the last time it has
grown very quickly. As the different brands bring out a lot of new
DSLRs with features that others don´t have but this one have other
features it seems to be that a lot of people are becoming paranoid
about "their" brand.

There are some forums with suffer more from fanboyism as others but
overall it seems that most people aren´t able to have an neutral view
of their camera.

Who hasn´t seen this yet?
The Canon people say:

• we have the best high ISO
• you want to have an D300 instead of a 40D? Let´s get one and go

away, you troll
The Nikon people say:

• Nikon has equal high ISO
• you want to switch to Canon, because you think they have better

high ISO performance and the cameras are better? You have no clue
about photography, it isn´t the camera, take your Canon and go away,
you troll
The Olympus people say:

• who needs higher ISOs?
• but my E3 is good
• we have the best lenses
• you want to switch to Nikon or Canon because the 4/3 system doesn´t

offer enough lenses, high ISO etc.? You have no clue about
photography, it isn´t the camera, take your Canon or Nikon and go
away, you troll
The Pentax people say:

• who needs an fast AF?
• we have the Limited primes, haha
• you aren´t satisfied with the K20D? You have to learn it, otherwise

you are a troll from the Canon forum
The Sigma people say:

• we have the Foveon sensor, this is so much better as Bayer
• we don´t need a fast camera
• why should Sigma bring out a faster camera if there is no

competition in IQ?

• you want a faster camera? Buy one and go away, you troll

And so on. Really, that is absolutely annoying. Why can´t people
accept that there are sometimes better cameras as "theirs"? Why is it
so difficult to see that everyone has other needs?
Really, think about this. I thought we are in a serious forum, but in
some cases I really doubt this...

--
You made a picture...fine!

Click to expand...

The brand bashers or anti-brand-fanboys...a few who have and no doubt will reply to this thread with their wise omnipotent views about Pentax or Oly or Sony fanboys.

I use Pentax, I LIKE Pentax...am I a Pentax fanboy?

My favourite lens on my Pentax right now is a Nikon ...am I a Nikon fanboy?

I believe people should buy what it right for THEM, NOT what is right for ME...does that make me a fan boy?

I have recommended Pentax (of course, since I am happy with my gear), Fuji, Canon, Nikon and Sony or what ever gets the job done.

I will respond when some ones says only go with Canon or Nikon because...insert smaller company here..will not be around, has not got a SYSTEM..they will and they do btw.

neil

I think you're misreading things. Some folks just get tired of the whining about "why don't they make a camera that does ". It's like buying a Miata, then constantly whining because it has no ground clearance and no back seat.

"Fanboys" know their equipment inside and out (for good, or cough cough, working around the bad).

I find it more annoying when people jump ship every time a new feature is released, as if all their problems will go away with the "next release".

"Wow, the 740DxsiII now detects teeth AND smiles! I'm gonna upgrade! The 740DxsiI sucks now."

I don't understand how my 300D went from Editor's Choice to "useless, ancient, obsolete" in such a short time. As if it suddenly stopped taking great photos the day the 350D came out.

..... "Why can´t people accept that there are sometimes better cameras as "theirs"? Why is it so difficult to see that everyone has other needs?".........

Perhaps you've answered your own question? The term "better camera" is loaded with subjectivity and emotion. Unless you define the precise meaning of "better" in light of particular "needs" then it simply inflames resentment.

What is "better" for a sports/action shooter who works in low light and needs pray and spray shutter speeds is quite different for the landscape shooter who need image quality above all else. This too is different for the extreme macro shooter who lives in a totally different "world" of requirements. The wedding photographer has vastly different needs from the wildlife shooter.

Like a carpenter, a photographer may need a number of different tools to get the job done. Let me give you a specific example. Let's say I "need" an extreme closeup shot of a small rare bird which typically perches high in the canopy of a South American Rain Forest. Just to get to where this bird is sometimes seen is a long, tiring trek through 30 miles of deep jungle requiring the photographer to ford chest deep water, slog through mosquito and biting insect filled swamps and finally arrive at a destination.

What would be "my" ideal camera, lens, etc., if money were no object? Perhaps I would buy one of Canon's rare 1200 F5.6 lenses outfitted with a 2x teleconverter and a Canon 1DS Mark III? That would be an argument from people who understand technology but who have never set foot in a South American Rainforest. What would be my personal choice? That would be my Nikon CP990 3.4 megapixel digicam.

"You're crazy," informed people would retort. You can "never" get a quality image from such a toy as you could with a state-of-art dSLR like the FF Canon 1DS Mark III and the 1200mm F5.6!

Now a person who had used both and who had traveled in the South American Rain forests might have quite a different opinion. Why? Because the lens itself weighs 44 pounds, the tripod and head to mount it on is huge, extremely heavy and bulky. Just getting the combination to where one may get the shot is nearly impossible. Were it possible then the maximum focal length possible for this combination would be 2400mm at F11.

With my tiny CP990, my Swarovski spotting scope or Meade ETX-90 barrel and a screw mount to attach this combination to a sturdy tree trunk, I can shoot at up to 5989mm at F14 and the likelihood of success and the quality of the result will far exceed what would be possible even if I "could" have the well over $100,000 combination Canon professional gear and get it to the location.

The total weight of my kit? About 5 pounds.

So if I then say a Nikon CP990 is "better" than a Canon 1DS Mark III the teckno-geeks will cry foul - LOL.

The point is that what is "better" is highly subjective and use dependent. So perhaps go easy on folks who believe that their Sigma or Olympus or Pentax is "better" than your Nikon or Canon. For their purposes it may be. For yours the opposite may be true.

Does this then make me a "Fan Boy" for the Nikon CP990? LOL. Nope - I like them all. That's why I have dozens of digicams and a dozen dSLR's. I'm a "Fan Boy" for the right tool for the job....

Best regards,

Lin

Lin Evans said:

..... "Why can´t people accept that there are sometimes better
cameras as "theirs"? Why is it so difficult to see that everyone has
other needs?".........

Perhaps you've answered your own question? The term "better camera"
is loaded with subjectivity and emotion. Unless you define the
precise meaning of "better" in light of particular "needs" then it
simply inflames resentment.

What is "better" for a sports/action shooter who works in low light
and needs pray and spray shutter speeds is quite different for the
landscape shooter who need image quality above all else. This too is
different for the extreme macro shooter who lives in a totally
different "world" of requirements. The wedding photographer has
vastly different needs from the wildlife shooter.

Like a carpenter, a photographer may need a number of different tools
to get the job done. Let me give you a specific example. Let's say I
"need" an extreme closeup shot of a small rare bird which typically
perches high in the canopy of a South American Rain Forest. Just to
get to where this bird is sometimes seen is a long, tiring trek
through 30 miles of deep jungle requiring the photographer to ford
chest deep water, slog through mosquito and biting insect filled
swamps and finally arrive at a destination.

Click to expand...

For making that trip in the first place.

Just kidding...though I trust such a trip would be worth the effort.
an excellent post.

Member said:

What would be "my" ideal camera, lens, etc., if money were no object?
Perhaps I would buy one of Canon's rare 1200 F5.6 lenses outfitted
with a 2x teleconverter and a Canon 1DS Mark III? That would be an
argument from people who understand technology but who have never set
foot in a South American Rainforest. What would be my personal
choice? That would be my Nikon CP990 3.4 megapixel digicam.

"You're crazy," informed people would retort. You can "never" get a
quality image from such a toy as you could with a state-of-art dSLR
like the FF Canon 1DS Mark III and the 1200mm F5.6!

Now a person who had used both and who had traveled in the South
American Rain forests might have quite a different opinion. Why?
Because the lens itself weighs 44 pounds, the tripod and head to
mount it on is huge, extremely heavy and bulky. Just getting the
combination to where one may get the shot is nearly impossible. Were
it possible then the maximum focal length possible for this
combination would be 2400mm at F11.

With my tiny CP990, my Swarovski spotting scope or Meade ETX-90
barrel and a screw mount to attach this combination to a sturdy tree
trunk, I can shoot at up to 5989mm at F14 and the likelihood of
success and the quality of the result will far exceed what would be
possible even if I "could" have the well over $100,000 combination
Canon professional gear and get it to the location.

The total weight of my kit? About 5 pounds.

So if I then say a Nikon CP990 is "better" than a Canon 1DS Mark III
the teckno-geeks will cry foul - LOL.

The point is that what is "better" is highly subjective and use
dependent. So perhaps go easy on folks who believe that their Sigma
or Olympus or Pentax is "better" than your Nikon or Canon. For their
purposes it may be. For yours the opposite may be true.

Does this then make me a "Fan Boy" for the Nikon CP990? LOL. Nope - I
like them all. That's why I have dozens of digicams and a dozen
dSLR's. I'm a "Fan Boy" for the right tool for the job....

Best regards,

Lin

Click to expand...

Fanboy emotion must be driven by the equipment they own.
It's a shame they often deride any other make but that's emotion for you.

Myself, I own a Konica Minolta 7D and a Leica Digilux 2 amongst other gear and recognize that there are 'better' bits of equipment around all over the place.

I get a little fed up with forum members telling me how much better a Sony A700 is and how it would prove to be a massive improvement on my existing gear. Fat chance. I don't need any of the 'advantages' I'd get from spending about a grand US. What I'd really like is a Contax N Digital - bit that's even more expensive!

And the Leica hasn't been bettered - as far as I can see - for producing a shot from which I can print a A4 size.

If you listen to fanboys you need to be able to sit back and reflect on the real world.
And be content with a Nikon CP990 or a KM 7D . If it ain't broke............

Yes, because only Canon and Nikon make the best cameras and are better than the rest and simply have the best and most glass compared to any other company.

Your doing the same thing you accuse Pentax/Olympus/Sony owners doing who you say feel "insecure about their purchases".

You are so terribly wrong.

I chose Pentax after careful evaluation, I decided to get the K200D over the XSi because it is a camera that would fit me better than the XSi which is flimsily built and has no weather/dust sealing.

Hell, it takes better pictures too.

Tim in upstate NY said:

Wombat 52 said:

Lupti-------------------You are so right. Interestingly the loudest
noises seem to come from the owners of cameras from companies with
the smallest market share.I shall refrain from naming them lest I
inflame them into voicing further justification.

Click to expand...

.....That is so very true!

.....Even in the real world outside of cyberspace, Pentaxians as a
group are defensive and insecure. Don't even think about asking them
what kind of camera is that you've got there....oh really....a Pentax?

Click to expand...

--
Fuji Film S9100
My Photos: http://flickr.com/photos/kris91/
s9100/s9600 Flickr Group:
http://www.flickr.com/groups/37994085@N00/