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Now I'm having problems with reds

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I just came back from a tour to Japan and after shooting for 7 days with the SD14, I find that I almost have to color correct EVERYONE of my pics to achieve good color....

I had many DSLRs in the past from, olympus E1, E510, E330, fuji s3pro, KM5D, etc, none of them had such screwy auto WB outdoors

It is amazing how far of the auto WB can be even outdoors. I don't get it. nobody has problems with outdoor wb except sigma.

Having said that, after painstakingly correcting each picture, the IQ is quite outstanding. I MIGHT be tempted to keep my SD14 and endure its MANY failings

1) poor WB
2) occasional screwed up in-cam preview
3) super shot battery life
4) occasional super big file size

5) totally out of whack AF with 10-20mm (I had to use MF all the time which isn't a big deal with the 10-20mm)

Lets put it this way, the camera is so user unfriendly that this is the FIRST dslr that I am using whereby I am shooting full manual mode, MF and manual exposure.
 
Jaelkay said:
DaSigmaGuy said:
Jaelkay said:
SPP software seems to be the problem.

The image first seen during loading into SPP2.5 looks fine.



But when loaded, it looks washed out and the reds are all out of whack.

Click to expand...
Then simply select "X3F" instead of "Auto" or "Custom", do manual
tweaks and you will still have perfect reds...I just tried it with a
pic of a red bus...The bus looks perfect colour at first on Auto as
its loading but once fully loaded the bus goes pink...Click on X3F
and the colour is perfect, but the rest of the pic is a tad dark so I
simply played around with the exposure, contrast and fill light till
the bus was still a perfect red but the pic was as light as it would
have been when Auto processed...No need to use Photoshop either!
Click to expand...
Doesn't work that way for me.

If I press on the X3F button, the image does not change in any way.
Click to expand...
Then you must be doing something wrong...It sounds like you are loading each X3F into SPP with SPP set to the X3F setting?....If so, then thats the wrong way to use it.

The correct way is to have SPP set to Auto when you are loading each X3F and let it fully Auto process each file...Once each file is fully processed only then should you click on X3F and start your manual tweaks...I find it hard to believe you wont see any difference if you do this.
Let me know how it goes.
--
DSG
--



--
http://sigmasd10.fotopic.net/
 
Besides the fact that it is awfully inconvenient to set the process mode before loading an image because the buttons only appear in the image window and spp becomes temporarely unresponsive when starting the load, it does not cause any changes to the image displayed in x3f mode.

Whatever the process mode when loading the image, the image displayed in x3f mode is always the same and that image differs from the embedded jpeg, sometimes very much so.

Generally this is not a problem. Usually I like the spp version better. But sometimes not and then it is frustrating to be forced to make changes just to get back to the colours that came out of the camera. I can use the jpeg but that makes a mess of my post processing workflow. First loading it into spp, waiting for a 10 seconds or more to see what comes out and than seeing that you must skip spp and use some 3rd party tool to extract the jpeg. I would rather use sppy. I acually like it...

It would be so much easier to have an additional button "in-camera-x3f" and work from that basis, it can't be that much work for sigma.

And while they are at it, they could make the camera highlight clipping tool more useful by having the offending pixels flash in red-white-original colours rather than showing a steady red.
And a bigger "full screen" histogram!

Paula
 
SandyF said:
I won't bother to respond much more to you.
Just look at jaelkay's examples. What bullet is 'checked' ?

Custom.

So what does that mean? You cannot tell what settings he has
previously used and thus applied to the photo.. ie what the custom
setting IS. Of course the preview may be different from the loaded
view. It's on custom. CUSTOM.
Click to expand...
I would prefer to stay out of this discussions with you. It's unbelievable.
It must be my bad English you do not understand.

I am aware of the differences between X3F and Custom.
Custom is the SAME as X3F, IF you have everything at 0.

I am aware of that jaelkay used Custom setting. He has also said that he in SPP3 had everything at 0. That is the SAME as using the X3F button.
Get it now?
SandyF said:
To illustrate my point, here's an X3F view of a SD14 file
http://www.pbase.com/sandyfleischman/image/96305604/small



Here's the same photo on which on another photo I'd deliberately
fouled up the processing to make my point. Then I loaded the photo of
the koto player again in that CUSTOM setting
http://www.pbase.com/image/96305622



Of course the photo doesn't look the same after loading, because of
the CUSTOM bullet selection! The loading applies the CUSTOM setting
back to the photo that is loading. You don't start over at zero.
Custom applies settings.
Click to expand...
So you just assume that since your Custom settings is different than 0, then everyone elses also are?

I am left with the impression that you are in deniyal mode about this problem.

--
Kind regards
Øyvind Strøm
http://www.pbase.com/norwegianviking/sd14
http://www.norwegianviking.smugmug.com
http://www.pbase.com/norwegianviking
SD-14 Compendium: http://www.foto.nordjylland.biz/SD14/SD-usertips.htm
 
Hey Alf

You are a knowledgeable guy, with strong opinions, but sometimes you are totally wrong.
DaSigmaGuy said:
Then you must be doing something wrong...It sounds like you are
loading each X3F into SPP with SPP set to the X3F setting?....If so,
then thats the wrong way to use it.
Click to expand...
That is certainly not wrong.
DaSonyGuy said:
The correct way is to have SPP set to Auto when you are loading each
X3F and let it fully Auto process each file...Once each file is fully
processed only then should you click on X3F and start your manual
tweaks...
Click to expand...
Where did you read this?

It makes absolutely no difference if you process with X3F button pressed, or switch to X3F mode after Auto.

In both cases SPP will read the settings in the X3F file and apply RAW development (using ISO, WB flags etc.)

The difference is that Auto from there on, just makes an educated guess of the optimal setting in SPP.
DaSonyGuy said:
I find it hard to believe you wont see any difference if you
do this.
Let me know how it goes.
Click to expand...
DaSonyGuy said:
--
DSG
--



--
http://sigmasd10.fotopic.net/
Click to expand...
--
Kind regards
Øyvind Strøm
http://www.pbase.com/norwegianviking/sd14
http://www.norwegianviking.smugmug.com
http://www.pbase.com/norwegianviking
SD-14 Compendium: http://www.foto.nordjylland.biz/SD14/SD-usertips.htm
 
I think that the 'development parameters' must be stored in some kind of header for the RAW file, and these are being read when you click on X3F - any adjustment from there makes them 'custom' settings, which you can then save back to the X3F if you wish (I find this quite useful).

When you click on Auto, SPP must do some kind of optimisation to work out a pleasant set of parameters... you can adjust from there, or save them to the X3F as your image settings.

Kind Regards

Brian
--
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Archive of UK Photo Safari Group Field Reports : http://www.ukphotosafari.org
 
JK,

Do you have a way to check the exposure? My SD14 started to overexpose at some point and it's now probably on the way to Japan as the Finnish importer do not have way to check or repair the cameras.

I tried both my SD10 and the SD14 at the same scene, using the same metering mode and the same sensitivity with the same lens. Both cameras gave similar exposure values.

However, at SPP, with zero settings, the SD14 picture was a lot lighter - i.e. overexposed, with the resultant loss of contrast. I'm talking about an overexposure of nearly one stop here. It really wreaked havoc with colours and contrast.

Luckily the SD10 is still chugging on. SPP 2.5 even seems to have cured some of the problems with red I used to have with it.

Cheers,

-Topi Kuusinen, Finland
 
Is that they are just plain inaccurate imho...

I just took these snapshots to illustrate.

Sunlight W/B for the DP1, Auto W/B for the Oly's

Olympus E-400 (now discontinued - but a favourite for colours)
1/800s f/4.0 at 12.0mm (24mm EFL) iso100



Olympus E-420
1/800s f/4.0 at 14.0mm (28mm EFL) iso100



Sigma DP1
1/800s f/4.0 at 16.6mm (28mm EFL) iso100



The problem I have is that my reds are coming out pink at best... I am eager to have a professional 3rd party RAW converter, so that I can create more accurate/automated colour profiles for my DP1.

I'm quickly mastering SPP, but I'm very unhappy with colour management in general with the DP1 - that's why I'm so keen to see decent, mainstream 3rd party support.

Kind Regards

Brian
--
Safari Group Leopard Event another HUGE SUCCESS. Register now for next event.



Out now! Roel Hendrickx Safari Group Field Report from Tunisia :
http://www.biofos.com/ukpsg/roel.html
Archive of UK Photo Safari Group Field Reports : http://www.ukphotosafari.org
 
Erik Magnuson said:
The other camera makers usually offer a raw converter that matches
the in-camera look almost exactly. So yes different converters offer
different options, but you don't have the same problem of being
unable to match the camera JPEG.
Click to expand...
The Bayer CFA detectors are (more or less) true RGB detectors on a global scale. So - it is (more or less) only white balance you can do to get different color behavior. I say "more or less" because there are some color profiles that might be a good idea to apply to get the color space right.

On the other hand - the Foveon sensor is way of regarding to RGB color space. A rather advanced conversion is needed - with huge possibilities for choice of method. Something you can read in this forum about - new versions of the official converter results in different color result. For some reason - the latest is always the "correct" one :)

On the other hand - Bayer CFA conversion have problems with interpolating (if that is what it really can be called) the image. Two different converters results in totally different result on a pixel by pixel level.

--
Roland
 
Woa!!! That DP1 image looks strange. Pink tulips! And what is the color called that should really be green? The SDx image looks almost normal - still the green is not green. The Oly image looks nice colorwise though. Maybe the green is somewhat too green - but thats hard to tell.

--
Roland
 
I would gladly send them the RAW file... the reds seem to be completely out of control... way too saturated / pink.

Kind Regards

Brian
--
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Archive of UK Photo Safari Group Field Reports : http://www.ukphotosafari.org
 
Definitely the Olys give a nicer rendition of the reds here.

Part of the difficulty in all of this is the lack of color management in SPP. As end users, it's hard to track down exactly what's going on until we know what exactly the 255.0.0 number means in SPP. Obviously, 255.0.0 means a completely different color in sRGB, Adobe RGB, PhotoPro RGB etc. and this non-color managed software is making conversions to these spaces for us in some way. It's entirely possible that given the right monitor, the Sigma file would pop out a beautiful red that's just out of gamut for a lowly sRGB monitor, but until we have more info, we won't know for sure. :( In the meantime, assume you have to underexpose for reds to be in gamut and go from there.

--
Peter Argyropoulos
http://petros.pl
SUG logo page: http://petros.pl/sug/
 
Brian Mosley said:
I think that the 'development parameters' must be stored in some kind
of header for the RAW file, and these are being read when you click
on X3F - any adjustment from there makes them 'custom' settings,
which you can then save back to the X3F if you wish (I find this
quite useful).
Click to expand...
Yes, any adjustment (and also including the white balance settings) are read in the headers/footers to the RAW. I discussed last night with someone familiar with the file structure that the RAW data itself is not changed, but the info changes(parameters if you will) are in the headers/footers.

But the white balance setting of SPP is also crucial (and in the header/footer of the RAW file) and makes a difference in the 'loaded' file's appearance.

So a custom bullet setting in auto wb will not look just like a sunlight wb custom bullet after the photo is loaded. If you change parameters, you will see different views. If we could work the 'bullets' and settings in person, this would be easy to show... and also where the misunderstands are.... but long distance is tough to show the variables, lots of variables in settings.

Another variable is that I think a RAW shot in auto wb may be different in the actual RAW data than the photo shot in sunlight wb as an example. Others too have noticed a difference in the MB size of the files (Paulo F) that is more than just header/footer info.

Thus still my recommendation to pin down variables on outdoor photos is to shoot in a fixed wb in-camera such as sunlight wb in natural light and to control your metering with center area metering rather than matrix. Then you can adjust in post processing any color 'casts' which are displeasing. My beach scene series yesterday I processed as an example: http://www.pbase.com/sandyfleischman/sd14_experiments&page=6
Brian Mosley said:
When you click on Auto, SPP must do some kind of optimisation to work
out a pleasant set of parameters... you can adjust from there, or
save them to the X3F as your image settings.
Click to expand...
ANY photo even with 0's (ie non-optimized) will load with the embedded parameters of the header/footer info. Then yes, auto processing (the center bullet) works on the file per parameters in the software FOR that white balance and characteristics of photo.

But even at 0 there is a big difference in auto white balance and sunlight wb or other wb. I've put a third version of the Japanese musicican lady online, this time changed to auto wb, 0 settings. Notice the huge change to the first (sunlight wb) version..... also at 0 settings. I think you can also embed that different wb info in the RAW settings head/footer too (I didn't for this example).
Best regards, Sandy
[email protected]
http://www.pbase.com/sandyfleischman
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sandyfleischmann
 
SandyF said:
settings

white balance in SPP2.5

plus
your screen shot shows you have the bullet on custom; you are picking
up settings. Custom is generally NOT at zero
Click to expand...
Probably did nothing more than adjust exposure a bit. That's it.

JK
 
SandyF said:
I won't bother to respond much more to you.
Just look at jaelkay's examples. What bullet is 'checked' ?

Custom.
Click to expand...
Right. I checked. There is NOTHING changed in the photograph. I probably had a fiddle with it shifting sliders and what have you around, but the images is UNCHANGED.

Nothing has been tweaked. Nada. Zip. Zilch.
SandyF said:
So what does that mean? You cannot tell what settings he has
previously used and thus applied to the photo.. ie what the custom
setting IS. Of course the preview may be different from the loaded
view. It's on custom. CUSTOM.
To illustrate my point, here's an X3F view of a SD14 file
http://www.pbase.com/sandyfleischman/image/96305604/small



Here's the same photo on which on another photo I'd deliberately
fouled up the processing to make my point. Then I loaded the photo of
the koto player again in that CUSTOM setting
http://www.pbase.com/image/96305622



Of course the photo doesn't look the same after loading, because of
the CUSTOM bullet selection! The loading applies the CUSTOM setting
back to the photo that is loading. You don't start over at zero.
Custom applies settings.
Click to expand...
 
DaSigmaGuy said:
Jaelkay said:
SPP software seems to be the problem.

The image first seen during loading into SPP2.5 looks fine.



But when loaded, it looks washed out and the reds are all out of whack.

Click to expand...
Then simply select "X3F" instead of "Auto" or "Custom", do manual
tweaks and you will still have perfect reds...
Click to expand...
As soon as I touch anything, like exposure or whatever, the "custom" button is highlighted.

Auto is generally rubbish and I don't use it.

Using X3F makes NO difference.

JK

I just tried it with a
DaSonyGuy said:
pic of a red bus...The bus looks perfect colour at first on Auto as
its loading but once fully loaded the bus goes pink...Click on X3F
and the colour is perfect, but the rest of the pic is a tad dark so I
simply played around with the exposure, contrast and fill light till
the bus was still a perfect red but the pic was as light as it would
have been when Auto processed...No need to use Photoshop either!
--
DSG
--



--
http://sigmasd10.fotopic.net/
Click to expand...
 
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