So, when can we expect an F6 style pro DSLR? D3X?

I don't know about the rest of you, (heck, most of you probably weren't even interested in cameras before DSLR's came around) ...but when the big, bad, brick-like Nikon F5 was replaced by the suave, mid-sized F6, I thought "brilliant!"

As an adventure photographer, I'd never dream of dragging a big huge body into the high Sierras. Galen Rowell didn't dream of it, either.

As a wedding and portrait photographer, I still don't always want the grip, unless I'm going to be shooting a ton of headshots... But that's what the MB-D10 is for!

My point is, I don't see why EVERY pro-series DSLR has to be full-size. The D300 has proven that you can go very far on just one EN-EL3e battery, and not just that but the MB-D10, which mysteriously is not named MB-D300, accepts D3 batteries while also leaving your EN-EL3e in the camera, giving you even MORE juice than the D3 can.

Why not do the F6 thing with the D3X? Here's why it would be a brilliant idea:

Only two kinds of people really NEED 24 megapixels. In my opinion, to best reach BOTH the studio / fashion / commercial photographers AND the high-adventure, go-light landscape photographers ala Galen Rowell, the F6 concept is perfect. Fully-professional grip when you need it, take it off when you don't...

Chances are you won't need 9 FPS with 24 megapixels. But if you do, the technology is here for the grip to enable that- the F6 grip boosted speed from 5 FPS to 8, and the D300 goes from 6 to 8 FPS as well.

The D300 grip is a a totally professional grip, and would be wholly acceptable not just as an add-on grip to the "advanced amateur, semi-pro" D300, but also as a grip for any fully-professional camera body. In fact as I said, it's almost BETTER because you add the EN-EL3e battery that stays in the camera, plus you also get that extra joypad for vertical shooting... That's an argument for the MB-D10 being an even BETTER setup than a straight-up full-size pro body...

I think the time has come for the return of the fully-professional, mid-size DSLR body. Nikon did it with the F6, Canon has always done it with their EOS-1 series, and right now if you want a fully professional DSLR, you simply MUST get a full-size body and I think that is a huge limitation for those who wish to go light.

Take care,
=Matt=

--



Cameras capable of making great photographs have become commonplace these days, but photographers have not. While technical innovations have made photography ever easier in recent decades, the art of producing images that other people will care about has become even more formidable. Galen Rowell

matthew saville said:

Why not do the F6 thing with the D3X? Here's why it would be a
brilliant idea:

Only two kinds of people really NEED 24 megapixels. In my opinion,
to best reach BOTH the studio / fashion / commercial photographers
AND the high-adventure, go-light landscape photographers ala Galen
Rowell, the F6 concept is perfect. Fully-professional grip when you
need it, take it off when you don't...

Click to expand...

I like your idea!

--
Cheers,
Joe

matthew saville said:

I don't know about the rest of you, (heck, most of you probably
weren't even interested in cameras before DSLR's came around)

Click to expand...

Seeing the age here of many people, you should turn it around most people where not interested when DSLR came around.

...but

Astro Landscapes said:

when the big, bad, brick-like Nikon F5 was replaced by the suave,
mid-sized F6, I thought "brilliant!"

Click to expand...

Astro Landscapes said:

As an adventure photographer, I'd never dream of dragging a big huge
body into the high Sierras. Galen Rowell didn't dream of it, either.

Click to expand...

Depending on so many things..well mid format camera's are a lot smaller nowadays and better dragable too (yes, digital I mean)

By the way, so you do not want to use a heavy body but heavy lenses aimed at professional market..that is for me an adventure. buy a D60 and a 18-200 mm lens.

Astro Landscapes said:

As a wedding and portrait photographer, I still don't always want
the grip, unless I'm going to be shooting a ton of headshots... But
that's what the MB-D10 is for!

Click to expand...

It does not fit on my D3 Oh, your talking DX. I can imagine that many wedding photographers do not want to use DX all the time.

Astro Landscapes said:

My point is, I don't see why EVERY pro-series DSLR has to be
full-size. The D300 has proven that you can go very far on just one
EN-EL3e battery, and not just that but the MB-D10, which mysteriously
is not named MB-D300, accepts D3 batteries while also leaving your
EN-EL3e in the camera, giving you even MORE juice than the D3 can.

Click to expand...

Okay, so what is the problem. Because it is marketed by Nikon as a semi-professional camera you see it as a semi professional camera for non professional work. The company I work for, bought D300 cameras', not D3's, I bought a D3 myself.

Astro Landscapes said:

Why not do the F6 thing with the D3X? Here's why it would be a
brilliant idea:

Click to expand...

So people who want it with a grip, have to screw it in...doesn't work, if you aim at professional market. Times changed...

Astro Landscapes said:

Only two kinds of people really NEED 24 megapixels. In my opinion,
to best reach BOTH the studio / fashion / commercial photographers
AND the high-adventure, go-light landscape photographers ala Galen
Rowell, the F6 concept is perfect. Fully-professional grip when you
need it, take it off when you don't...

Click to expand...

Okay, so you have mentioned more than 50% of the professional market, guess which non mid-format camera is most used...it starts with a "C"

Astro Landscapes said:

Chances are you won't need 9 FPS with 24 megapixels. But if you do,
the technology is here for the grip to enable that- the F6 grip
boosted speed from 5 FPS to 8, and the D300 goes from 6 to 8 FPS as
well.

Click to expand...

chances are that will not happen now, with a 24MP camera, maybe in a couple of years, purely technically speaking of course by means of speed.

Astro Landscapes said:

The D300 grip is a a totally professional grip, and would be wholly
acceptable not just as an add-on grip to the "advanced amateur,
semi-pro" D300, but also as a grip for any fully-professional camera
body.

Click to expand...

Which it is already; only DX, a bit painful to market it that way, do you understand?

In fact as I said, it's almost BETTER because you add the

Astro Landscapes said:

EN-EL3e battery that stays in the camera, plus you also get that
extra joypad for vertical shooting... That's an argument for the
MB-D10 being an even BETTER setup than a straight-up full-size pro
body...

Click to expand...

I hate that joystick....But ballance and grip with the d10 si so much better with long lenses.

Astro Landscapes said:

I think the time has come for the return of the fully-professional,
mid-size DSLR body. Nikon did it with the F6, Canon has always done
it with their EOS-1 series, and right now if you want a fully
professional DSLR, you simply MUST get a full-size body and I think
that is a huge limitation for those who wish to go light.

Click to expand...

I want to go purple (well actually my wife does, and she will be more pleased when I use money for something she likes to see) Probable Nikon will not listen, if there will be another colour it will be Nikon yellow.

Michel~

~ Light is eveything ~
http://www.fotopropaganda.com
http://www.pbase.com/photopropaganda

Please. Just buy a D3 and be done with it. Your not going to save all that much weight by going to a smaller body, and if your an "Adventure" photographer, I would think that you would need the performance that the larger bodies provide.

Photographers dragged real cameras into the wilderness all the time and still do. Go over to the Large Format Photographers Forum website and read all about it.

matthew saville said:

Chances are you won't need 9 FPS with 24 megapixels. But if you do,
the technology is here for the grip to enable that- the F6 grip
boosted speed from 5 FPS to 8, and the D300 goes from 6 to 8 FPS as
well.

Click to expand...

'fraid not. The boost is achieved by boosting the voltage to motors. In the case of the F6, it makes the film advance motor go faster. In the case of the D300, it lets the AF and mirror flip/shutter **** motors go faster. You don't increase the speed of digital signal processors by raising the voltage above the 1.8-3.3 V they operate at, you just fry them.

It would be possible, perhaps, to put a second EXPEED in the grip, but it would be a different order of engineering, and nothing to do with the technology that's in the F6 and D300
--
Bob

12 and/or 24 MP.

Now I just carry the D300 most of the time, the D3 when I must.

Some people say that a D300 with the D3 sensor would just suck the sales out of the D3.

This may be true, but I figure the volume of sales would more than make up for it.

Yet still, people claim that an "affordable FX body" will end up in less of a body than the D300; more along the lines of a D80 / D90. If that's the case, then does that mean the D400 will continue to be DX? As much as I personally would love that, I doubt it.

So the bottom line is that it is inevitable, in the long run- a D300 quality body with an FX sensor.

--



Cameras capable of making great photographs have become commonplace these days, but photographers have not. While technical innovations have made photography ever easier in recent decades, the art of producing images that other people will care about has become even more formidable. Galen Rowell

M Lammerse said:

Seeing the age here of many people, you should turn it around most
people where not interested when DSLR came around.

Click to expand...

Given the childish bickering that goes on here 75% of the time, I just assumed everybody was a "young gun"... Heaven forbid that it's a bunch of 30+ year olds that are responsible for the brand-bashing and fanboy trolling on DPR's forums?

M Lammerse said:

Depending on so many things..well mid format camera's are a lot
smaller nowadays and better dragable too (yes, digital I mean)
By the way, so you do not want to use a heavy body but heavy lenses
aimed at professional market..that is for me an adventure. buy a D60
and a 18-200 mm lens.

Click to expand...

Indeed, Galen Rowell sported a "plastic-fantastic" cheapo body when the shooting conditions didn't call for something more rugged. But there are still situations when magnesium alloy and weather sealing are highly desirable, indeed.

M Lammerse said:

It does not fit on my D3 Oh, your talking DX. I can imagine that many
wedding photographers do not want to use DX all the time.

Click to expand...

No, the DX / FX format is potentially irrelevant with the MB-D10; we simply have yet to see what other cameras Nikon comes out that are compatible with it. And other bodies are inevitable, given the ambiguous MB-D10 name. (as opposed to MB-D300)

I'm assuming for a moment that Nikon will make a D300 quality body that has an FX sensor in it.

M Lammerse said:

Okay, so what is the problem. Because it is marketed by Nikon as a
semi-professional camera you see it as a semi professional camera for
non professional work. The company I work for, bought D300 cameras',
not D3's, I bought a D3 myself.

Click to expand...

What? No, I consider the D300 to be a fully professional body. Nikon doesn't. My question is, if/when will Nikon make a flagship DSLR that is mid-size?

Because there really is very litle advantage to having a full-size body anymore, now that the MB-D10 can accept pro batteries and can add a couple FPS if needed... Maybe they'll refine the aux. joypad in a future model...

M Lammerse said:

Okay, so you have mentioned more than 50% of the professional market,
guess which non mid-format camera is most used...it starts with a "C"

Click to expand...

So then, shame on both Nikon AND Canon for not making a single flagship DSLR that is mid-size! Previously Canon's EOS 1-N etc. had fantastic vertical grips, in fact Nikon's F5 was the only full-size film SLR body that I know of...

--



Cameras capable of making great photographs have become commonplace these days, but photographers have not. While technical innovations have made photography ever easier in recent decades, the art of producing images that other people will care about has become even more formidable. Galen Rowell

I totally agree with you that an F6 style 24mp digital body would be an ideal solution for many.This would enable Nikon to instantly provide a viable alternative to Canon's forthcoming 5d replacement and the 1Dsmk3 but with one body, leaving the user to add a pro quality grip only when necessary. This would be in line with the F,F2,F3,F4 series cameras and restore choice to the photographer. Like you I should like a smaller form pro FX body without sacrificing anything else. There would still be room for a slightly lower spec level price D300/400 FX body and eventually a D80/90 prosumer FX body. Do we really need a camera with high resolution but slower fps to be as big as the D3 all the time? Many 5D users would say no, and choose that camera not only for the IQ but also the smaller form factor despite its' many shortcomings.

Astro Landscapes said:

Some people say that a D300 with the D3 sensor would just suck the sales out of the D3.

Click to expand...

Might also suck the sales from the anticipated Canon 5D-II

RB

http://www.pbase.com/rbfresno/profile

Hi Matt! Forrest Cavale here.... if this F6/D3x comes out... ill buy you one...

P.S. if only i had enough income to actually do sumpin like that for a good friend like yourself!

good post brother,

Forrest
--
Im a doubting thomas

If the D3X came out at around $5000, and offered a higher resolution over the D3 but less speed and not as impressive high ISO performance, I think you are right that it would compete well with both the 1Ds mk3 but also any 5D replacement that dares to venture above 14 megapixels and maybe tries to add some pro features like weather sealing and 45 point AF...

=Matt=
--



Cameras capable of making great photographs have become commonplace these days, but photographers have not. While technical innovations have made photography ever easier in recent decades, the art of producing images that other people will care about has become even more formidable. Galen Rowell

Matthew,
Cannot agree with you more.

There is this misconception these days that PRO bodies = integrated vertical grip!
Looking at my Nikon collection:



I think the F4s form factor is nearly perfect. Even with a removable vertical grip (also most comfortable to hold), it is still far smaller then the F5, and only slightly bigger then the F6 with vertical grip.

Lets all hope Nikon will do what Japanese do best... miniaturization!

ws

Not making a specific feature comparison, but just as the F100 has 98% of the quality and capability of the F5 in a mid size body at way less cost, then a 2500 USD version of the D3 would be great.
--
http://lightp8nter.smugmug.com/

What's more, the 24 MP gripless body should be priced around $3000. That must be possible, because looking at the D300 price of $1700 they can spent $1300 to increase the chip size/MP.

--
Philip

Hey Philip,

You're sort of describing two cameras, both that I'd like to see from Nikon...

First, let's understand that there ARE slight differences between the D3 and the D300. Dual card slots, circular eyepiece with blackout shutter, to name a couple things.

So- First I'd like a D300 body with JUST a D3 sensor. No extra megapixels, no extra features, just the sensor. Heck, make it 10 megapixels, and get even MORE high ISO performance out of it, I dont' care!. But just swapping D3 sensors and D300 parts would keep costs way down, maybe at $3K or less.

But then, I'd also like to see basically a D3 body, but mid size and accepting the MB-D10 grip for a 2-3 FPS boost and the D3 battery. So this would have all the pro features, like the dual card slots etc. (For when I become famous and shoot for NG and have VERY critical assignments, wink wink...)

Now, I'd be fine for most all of my wedding / portrait / event work if that camera were still 12 megapixels. HOWEVER, for landscape photography, 24 would be sweet.

So, give me this fictional D400 and D3X, and I'll be happy! (Of course I'll always keep my D300 for it's wider AF coverage and lighter / smaller / cheaper lenses...)

=Matt=

--



Cameras capable of making great photographs have become commonplace these days, but photographers have not. While technical innovations have made photography ever easier in recent decades, the art of producing images that other people will care about has become even more formidable. Galen Rowell

matthew saville said:

Hey Philip,

You're sort of describing two cameras, both that I'd like to see from
Nikon...

First, let's understand that there ARE slight differences between the
D3 and the D300. Dual card slots, circular eyepiece with blackout
shutter, to name a couple things.

Click to expand...

So, try to estimate a market value for circular eyepiece and Dual card slots?

Astro Landscapes said:

So- First I'd like a D300 body with JUST a D3 sensor. No extra
megapixels, no extra features, just the sensor. Heck, make it 10
megapixels, and get even MORE high ISO performance out of it, I dont'
care!. But just swapping D3 sensors and D300 parts would keep costs
way down, maybe at $3K or less.

Click to expand...

Just the sensor? Keep the crop shutter, mirror and VF? Oh no, we'd better change them too, but make a new one with a rectangular eyepiece so it's not too like a D3. Because apparently a circular eyepiece and dual CF slots (oh, and you forgot one more FPS and the artificial horizon) is worth $2k to a whole load of people. BTW, reducing pixel count won't give any more high ISO performance, just less resolution.

Astro Landscapes said:

But then, I'd also like to see basically a D3 body, but mid size and
accepting the MB-D10 grip for a 2-3 FPS boost and the D3 battery.
So this would have all the pro features, like the dual card slots
etc. (For when I become famous and shoot for NG and have VERY
critical assignments, wink wink...)

Click to expand...

It's quite interesting to speculate why the F6 went back to an add on grip, when the D's stayed with an integrated one (as did the EOS-1, which started with an add-on grip). It might be that with few pros still using film, they knew that the F6 was essentially an amateur camera. Their marketeers tell them that by and large pro's want the integrated grip so they design for the target market. I suspect that most of those lobbying for a 'compact' D3 are hobbyists.

Astro Landscapes said:

Now, I'd be fine for most all of my wedding / portrait / event work
if that camera were still 12 megapixels. HOWEVER, for landscape
photography, 24 would be sweet.

Click to expand...

Astro Landscapes said:

So, give me this fictional D400 and D3X, and I'll be happy! (Of
course I'll always keep my D300 for it's wider AF coverage and
lighter / smaller / cheaper lenses...)

Click to expand...

Of course, with a D3x you get 10MPix crop mode at 9FPS (probably), so why do you want the D300? And the D400 will most likely be the DX F4.

--
Bob

lightp8nter said:

Not making a specific feature comparison, but just as the F100 has
98% of the quality and capability of the F5 in a mid size body at way
less cost, then a 2500 USD version of the D3 would be great.

Click to expand...

F5 - 100% interchangeable VF, 1005 pixel meter, 8FPS, $2k
F100 - 96% fixed VF, 10 segment meter, 5FPS, $1.4k

96%, 1% , 62.5%, 70% depending on what you're measuring. Price difference kind of fits the specification difference. What you're asking for is same sensor, VF, meter, AF and 90% of the frame rate for 50% of the price. Doesn't sound remotely likely to me.

--
Bob

as D3x should share most parts with D3 for production efficiency. Also to achieve 24MP at 9 fps you will need two Expeed processors, which means a redesign of the electronics of D3.

But I believe this is the route Nikon will take for their FF D300. Wll you take a 18MP F100 size FF camera with a versatile grip that can boost fps?

BTW D300 isn't a semi-pro body. It's more 'pro' than any other 'cropped sensor' cameras out there
Max

Astro Landscapes said:

My point is, I don't see why EVERY pro-series DSLR has to be
full-size. The D300 has proven that you can go very far on just one
EN-EL3e battery, and not just that but the MB-D10, which mysteriously
is not named MB-D300, accepts D3 batteries while also leaving your
EN-EL3e in the camera, giving you even MORE juice than the D3 can.

Why not do the F6 thing with the D3X? Here's why it would be a
brilliant idea:

Only two kinds of people really NEED 24 megapixels. In my opinion,
to best reach BOTH the studio / fashion / commercial photographers
AND the high-adventure, go-light landscape photographers ala Galen
Rowell, the F6 concept is perfect. Fully-professional grip when you
need it, take it off when you don't...

Chances are you won't need 9 FPS with 24 megapixels. But if you do,
the technology is here for the grip to enable that- the F6 grip
boosted speed from 5 FPS to 8, and the D300 goes from 6 to 8 FPS as
well.

The D300 grip is a a totally professional grip, and would be wholly
acceptable not just as an add-on grip to the "advanced amateur,
semi-pro" D300, but also as a grip for any fully-professional camera
body. In fact as I said, it's almost BETTER because you add the
EN-EL3e battery that stays in the camera, plus you also get that
extra joypad for vertical shooting... That's an argument for the
MB-D10 being an even BETTER setup than a straight-up full-size pro
body...

I think the time has come for the return of the fully-professional,
mid-size DSLR body. Nikon did it with the F6, Canon has always done
it with their EOS-1 series, and right now if you want a fully
professional DSLR, you simply MUST get a full-size body and I think
that is a huge limitation for those who wish to go light.

Take care,
=Matt=

--



Cameras capable of making great photographs have become commonplace
these days, but photographers have not. While technical innovations
have made photography ever easier in recent decades, the art of
producing images that other people will care about has become even
more formidable. Galen Rowell

Click to expand...

bobn2 said:

Their marketeers tell them that by and large pro's want the
integrated grip so they design for the target market. I suspect that
most of those lobbying for a 'compact' D3 are hobbyists.

Click to expand...

I'm not so sure. The integrated grip has a strong emotional impact on many people in the sense that they think it looks 'pro'. The marketeers don't care whether the buyer earns money with it or not. I can't see a reason why an integrated grip in itself would make the camera better suited to earn money with.

I found the D1 and D1x heavy and way too imidating on my subjects. Liked the D100 much better. In the studio I can't go faster than 1 FPS anyway and most landscape shooters take one pic at a time too.

So I'd say the High Iso GripLoving Machine Gunners already have their toy, now it's the day of the Low Iso GripHating Ant F*ckers

--
Philip