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FF , D645 and Samsung Korean endeavor

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One major difference....

Konika Minolta were is serious financial difficulties and they offered their camera division up for sale without the name, as the company was still called Konika Minolta, hence the cameras are now branded Sony. Carl Zeiss is just a name they have a license to use because they pay Zeiss to do some design work on their lenses.

Pentax does not exist except as a brand name owned by Hoya. Hoya are not in any way in financial trouble. Of course they could sell the rights to the technology and the brand name to Samsung, however I suspect they could do a lot better in the long term by continuing with their current relationship. Hoya are not out for a quick buck but would look for good long term profitability.

Samsung would not want to buy the whole of Hoya just to get Pentax, and Hoya are well aware of the value of this new brand they have acquired. They would not sell it cheap.

Nor do I quite buy any of this Asian antagonism stuff - at least not in the boardroom. Big business is surprisingly pragmatic and colour-blind. Its all mutual self interest whatever happens on the streets outside. Japanese companies have factories in Korea, Taiwan, Malaysia, Vietnam, the Philippines, China, etc. Many of these countries they were at war with a generation ago, or even occupied, but this is business.

Poland, Hungary and the Check Republic are very happy when a German company decides to build a factory there or they can get cheap gas from Russia. "National pride" is a slogan thats used for political pacification, it means nothing to CEOs or their major shareholders (banks in other words).

Japan is keen to be seen as a "good Asian citizen" these days precisely because of the potential size of these new markets and its previous "cozy" relationship with the West.
--
Steve
When I can master technique I'll be a photographer.
When I can realise a vision I'll be an artist.
When I get paid I'll be a professional.
 
*isteve said:
One major difference....

Konika Minolta were is serious financial difficulties and they
offered their camera division up for sale without the name, as the
company was still called Konika Minolta, hence the cameras are now
branded Sony. Carl Zeiss is just a name they have a license to use
because they pay Zeiss to do some design work on their lenses.

Pentax does not exist except as a brand name owned by Hoya. Hoya are
not in any way in financial trouble. Of course they could sell the
rights to the technology and the brand name to Samsung, however I
suspect they could do a lot better in the long term by continuing
with their current relationship. Hoya are not out for a quick buck
but would look for good long term profitability.

Samsung would not want to buy the whole of Hoya just to get Pentax,
and Hoya are well aware of the value of this new brand they have
acquired. They would not sell it cheap.
Click to expand...
More the less I agree
*isteve said:
Nor do I quite buy any of this Asian antagonism stuff - at least not
in the boardroom. Big business is surprisingly pragmatic and
colour-blind. Its all mutual self interest whatever happens on the
streets outside.
Click to expand...
Korean business approach , like those of Japanese before the 80s were planned and a lot of time were not based on business consideration. Shipbuilding and dram are two obvious examples. Typically somebody high up in the government has targeted certain industry and the banks (not run on business consideration) would provide cheap loan. If the business fails, the bank got the break from the Govt.- that is it. And if you can recall Korean banks failed massively in the 90s because of the government or industry went out all the way to produce ships. As they were not based on business prudence, the whole industry collapsed.

Steve,

In both shipbuilding and dram , which countries were hurt most? Japanese (of course others are included) . The dram price is still dropping like a stone. Do you stil use Sanyo , Toshiba or Sony sdram and ram products? Hope you go through the u-tube clips

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbJdiT6TPN0

Very nasty stuff
*isteve said:
Japanese companies have factories in Korea, Taiwan,
Malaysia, Vietnam, the Philippines, China, etc. Many of these
countries they were at war with a generation ago, or even occupied,
but this is business.
Click to expand...
Your example is not relevant. You may notice there is very few if zero Jap investment in Korea. I would say Japanese has learned a lot about trouble associated with government directing where the industry should go. But Koreans are different story.

Go back to the point that I have been speculating: Samsung has more in mind than what they are doing up to now. There will be huge surprise after the 14mp cmos chip. We Pentaxians are to benefit from it anyway. No complaint either. Let us see.
*isteve said:
Poland, Hungary and the Check Republic are very happy when a German
company decides to build a factory there or they can get cheap gas
from Russia. "National pride" is a slogan thats used for political
pacification, it means nothing to CEOs or their major shareholders
(banks in other words).

Japan is keen to be seen as a "good Asian citizen" these days
precisely because of the potential size of these new markets and its
previous "cozy" relationship with the West.
--
Steve
When I can master technique I'll be a photographer.
When I can realise a vision I'll be an artist.
When I get paid I'll be a professional.
Click to expand...
--
Daniel, Toronto
http://www.pbase.com/danieltong

 
*isteve said:
Pentax does not exist except as a brand name owned by Hoya.
Click to expand...
In my opinion this is wrong. Pentax simply got a new owner. Instead of being own by a variety of finacial institutions they are now owned by Hoya.

It may very well be that pentax medical division will in due course function as a brand name for Hoya, but the imaging division is stand alone and enjoy a significant degree of freedom...
 
D TONG said:
*isteve said:
Nor do I quite buy any of this Asian antagonism stuff - at least not
in the boardroom. Big business is surprisingly pragmatic and
colour-blind. Its all mutual self interest whatever happens on the
streets outside.
Click to expand...
Korean business approach , like those of Japanese before the 80s were
planned and a lot of time were not based on business consideration.
Shipbuilding and dram are two obvious examples. Typically somebody
high up in the government has targeted certain industry and the banks
(not run on business consideration) would provide cheap loan. If the
business fails, the bank got the break from the Govt.- that is it.
And if you can recall Korean banks failed massively in the 90s
because of the government or industry went out all the way to produce
ships. As they were not based on business prudence, the whole
industry collapsed.

Steve,

In both shipbuilding and dram , which countries were hurt most?
Japanese (of course others are included) . The dram price is still
dropping like a stone. Do you stil use Sanyo , Toshiba or Sony sdram
and ram products? Hope you go through the u-tube clips

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbJdiT6TPN0

Very nasty stuff
Click to expand...
Indeed but also quite old and how is it relevant to this discussion?
D TONG said:
D TONG said:
Japanese companies have factories in Korea, Taiwan,
Malaysia, Vietnam, the Philippines, China, etc. Many of these
countries they were at war with a generation ago, or even occupied,
but this is business.
Click to expand...
Your example is not relevant. You may notice there is very few if
zero Jap investment in Korea. I would say Japanese has learned a lot
about trouble associated with government directing where the industry
should go. But Koreans are different story.
Click to expand...
Then I stand corrected

However, they are not the first world economy that has had that problem. The UK tried nationalisation and that didnt work either :) The Chinese have just as much state control over banks as ever, but many including Japan consider it worth the risk. Governments do various stupid things to encourage or discourage inward investment, but at the end of the day banks and CEOs make each decision on its merits.

I still speculate that in the boardroom it is purely a risk assessment, nothing more. Why else would Pentax be willing to sign any form of agreement with Samsung, let alone enable a Korean firm to compete on equal terms with their Japanese rivals, if it were anything more politically inspired?
D TONG said:
Go back to the point that I have been speculating: Samsung has more
in mind than what they are doing up to now. There will be huge
surprise after the 14mp cmos chip. We Pentaxians are to benefit from
it anyway. No complaint either. Let us see.
Click to expand...
I agree it may get interesting, but if Pentax have the Asian Tiger my the tail they had better be careful no to overreach themselves and get stretched too thin - the temptation may be to make money as a parts supplier - but like Zeiss and Schneider that would wreck their reputation. They have already made too many identical cameras and need to start diversification of the product lines IMO. Pentax needs to reassert its separate identity and Samsung needs one of its own, even if they share parts and technology to reduce costs.

However the fact they use the Kmount is good for us, whatever happens. We will all be able to attach our glass to something for a while yet, whatever country it gets made in.

--
Steve
When I can master technique I'll be a photographer.
When I can realise a vision I'll be an artist.
When I get paid I'll be a professional.
 
Voff said:
*isteve said:
Pentax does not exist except as a brand name owned by Hoya.
Click to expand...
In my opinion this is wrong. Pentax simply got a new owner. Instead
of being own by a variety of finacial institutions they are now owned
by Hoya.
It may very well be that pentax medical division will in due course
function as a brand name for Hoya, but the imaging division is stand
alone and enjoy a significant degree of freedom...
Click to expand...
The financial institutions were merely shareholders. Hoya are not owners of Pentax stock, there is no such thing as Pentax stock as of march 31st 2008! They own the assets, staff, funds and IPR that used to belong to Asahi Pentax Co. in its entirity.

The Pentax Optical division of Hoya Corp is just that - a division with its own P&L responsibility - not a subsidiary company with its own shares issue and published accounts.

The medical products has already been merged and no longer exists as a separate entity - just a different product line within Hoya Medical.
--
Steve
When I can master technique I'll be a photographer.
When I can realise a vision I'll be an artist.
When I get paid I'll be a professional.
 
I am refering to the space on the sides of the sensor.

If you look inside a DSLR with miror locked up you will see that there is a bit of real estate around the sensor itself.

My speculation is that one of the factors that have held back FF is that you cannot just plop the larger sensor inside a K10D body. You have to expand the lateral area of the cavity to make room for the frame around the sensor.

My experience as an engineer says that most designs borrow a lot from previous models. I would expect that a lot of the mechanical design of the mirror and shutter mechanisms in the Pentax go back to the film cameras. The *istD looked like a *ist with a sensor mounted inside.

Since FF DSLRs are as rare as hen's teeth, I would guess that there is something that makes it harder than just changing the sensor.
--
Ed Hannon
http://www.pbase.com/edhannon
 
D TONG said:
This is a conspiracy theory that nobody in here looked at it in this
direction.

Being Asian , I am very concious about the deep rooted anismosity
between the Japanese and Koreans

Google Sohn Kee-Chung and you will know what I mean. Being a colony
completely exploited, Koreans have been trying to turn around and
demonstrate that it is no longer a backward country. Nothing will
please the Koreans if the latter can beat out Canon/Nikon - the old
master.
Click to expand...
Samsung has been growing rather steadily through the years. There is nothing new about Samsung wanting to grow.
D TONG said:
Samsung has been working on it for some time. It has taken
over Pentax mount very cheap which WAS the dominant players in the 70
& 80s. Samsung beat all of us by bringing in out of the blue a huge
14 MP cmos sensor.
Click to expand...
Samsung's dramatic rise in the compact digital market is noteworthy. In terms of DSLR sales, it is not even on the radar.
D TONG said:
The question is what is in their bag now? And here comes the FF
suggestion from Samsung staff? The signs are everywhere?
Click to expand...
We should celebrate Samsung's intention to produce a full frame sensor. Right now, there is a dearth of competition among manufacturers of full frame DSLRs. Nikon prices its first full frame out of the reach of a vast majority of people, and Canon only has a single semi-affordable full frame. Sony's 24mp full frame is unlikely to be as cheap as the Canon.
D TONG said:
Korean mindset can be demonstrated in their fixation of doing thing
big way with huge government backup. First it was shipbuilding and
then DRAM. The Government dictated what was to be the direction and
they wasted no time and expense to achieve the goal. Market share is
the name of the game rather than profitability
Click to expand...
How is that different from what the Japanese government had been doing, and how is it different from what the Chinese government is doing? In fact, many governments around the world subsidize all sorts of businesses, including here in the USA.
D TONG said:
My hunch is that it would be something that is bigger like D645
rather than FF as both Canon & Nikon have FF already.
Click to expand...
You cannot run until you have learned how to walk. A FF sensor is already hard enough. Why would Samsung make the leap to the 645 sensor? Makes no sense.
D TONG said:
D645 may come
out with a sticker price of around $5K which is within reach given
the fast pace of electronic development (tell me about the drop in
LCD price).
Click to expand...
The medium format market is small, smaller than even the full frame pro market, so I think it unlikely Samsung would enter it. After all, Samsung has no medium format camera to build around the sensor.
D TONG said:
In one big stroke , Samsung Pentax can establish itself
as a premium player and nobody can beat them in the resolution or
high pixel count game. Its market may be small but the psychological
effect is huge. The costs to Samsung is little as well as everything
is there already except for the sensor.
Click to expand...
Samsung is after market share and profits, not prestige.
D TONG said:
BTW Samsung is marketing its own dslr and all they need is just the
Pentax mount (shell).

The point that I want to make is that there will be surprise and
surprise. A yr ago who would believe Nikon could bring out a low
pixel count FF (D3) or a large 14M cmos sensor from Samsung?
Click to expand...
Correct, the D3 and the 14mp Samsung sensor are both surprises. There may be other surprises in the near future, but one of them is almost certainly not a Samsung 645D sensor, at least not before the full frame 35mm sensor debuts.
 
I've been saying "watch Samsung" well over a year now. They are dead serious about being a camera powerhouse, but I think it will be FF first, not last. There is a market if the price is right, and they can handle "price is right" for the reasons the OP stated. It is not so much that they need Govt. support, they are a giant company, but that is how it works in Korea, so why not? All countries do it to some extent. Here, we pay farmers billions, not to plant certain crops. I had an uncle that got rich by not planting peanuts for years. Vacationed all over the world while his fields lay dormant and he talked of all the hard work he "used to do". I do pretty good myself, Pentax pays me a nice subsidy to "not submit" my pictures to the Pentax Gallery. I can't live off of it or travel the world, but it buys nice lenses I "can't properly use". LOL
--
'This is more serious than I thought.....but it is still fun!
http://www.pbase.com/rupertdog Take a look- It's Free!
 
Rupert60 said:
I've been saying "watch Samsung" well over a year now. They are dead
serious about being a camera powerhouse, but I think it will be FF
first, not last.
Click to expand...
Repert

I recall you mentioned that . But to go FF does not even make it to the news 10th pages.
Rupert60 said:
There is a market if the price is right, and they
can handle "price is right" for the reasons the OP stated.
Click to expand...
The market and price will be right as miniaturization is proceeding in a breakneck pace. It is not what will happen. The question is only when it happens. And all the key players (Nikon, Canon, Sony Pentax ) are aiming to be the trend leader.
Rupert60 said:
It is not
so much that they need Govt. support, they are a giant company, but
that is how it works in Korea, so why not? All countries do it to
some extent. Here, we pay farmers billions, not to plant certain
crops. I had an uncle that got rich by not planting peanuts for
years. Vacationed all over the world while his fields lay dormant and
he talked of all the hard work he "used to do". I do pretty good
myself, Pentax pays me a nice subsidy to "not submit" my pictures to
the Pentax Gallery. I can't live off of it or travel the world, but
it buys nice lenses I "can't properly use". LOL
--
'This is more serious than I thought.....but it is still fun!
http://www.pbase.com/rupertdog Take a look- It's Free!
Click to expand...
--
Daniel, Toronto
http://www.pbase.com/danieltong

 
I read that Sansung build the electronic and sensor to GX-20/K20 and Pentax just the optical issue. In the GX-10/K10 Pentax has the 90% and Samsung just the 10% and the sensor was Sony.

Is difficult for Samsung lauch a FF DSLR without FF lenses in stock, but I think Samsung will launch it with some new lenses...
 
Alexramos said:
I read that Sansung build the electronic and sensor to GX-20/K20 and
Pentax just the optical issue. In the GX-10/K10 Pentax has the 90%
and Samsung just the 10% and the sensor was Sony.

Is difficult for Samsung lauch a FF DSLR without FF lenses in stock,
Click to expand...
There are million and million of them around. Newer ones like all FA limited, DA*200mm & DA*300mm are all FF too to name just a few.
Alexramos said:
but I think Samsung will launch it with some new lenses...
Click to expand...
--
Daniel, Toronto
http://www.pbase.com/danieltong
 
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