ZD 14-42mm Kit Lens, Review

Ok, this lens clearly offers less DOF control than a similarly
specced lens on a 35mm camera. But is it really significantly
different to the Canon EF-S 18-55 in this regard, with a marginally
larger sensor?
Try plugging the numbers into DOF Master http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html
Examples (same diagonal angle of view in each case):
  • E-410 with 14-42 at 14.4mm, subject distance 10 ft, f/3.6 (closest DOF Master has to f/3.5) - calculated total DOF is 40.3 ft. Rebel XTi with 18-55 at 18mm, same subject distance and f-number, calc total DOF is 21.1 ft
  • E-410 with 14-42 at 40mm, subject distance 10 ft, f/5.6 - calculated total DOF is 3.3 ft. Rebel XTi with 18-55 at 50mm, same subject distance and f-number, calc total DOF is 2.6 ft.
Granted, it is difficult to say whether such numbers are significant. I noticed the difference between DOF with 18-55 on Rebel XTi and 14-42 on E-410, but someone else may not. It's just like the size difference. To me, there is a significant difference in size between those two combos. To someone else, they may be a similar size.

--
http://www.seriouscompacts.com
http://www.flickr.com/groups/seriouscompacts/
 
or is what you are saying, that on Mondays the chart is 1.365m away,
and on Tuesdays it could be 1.51m away, maybe its me, but that just
doesnt make sense.
No, the chart distance will be the same, but the lens's focus distance won't necessarily be (especially using MF in those tiny Four thirds viewfinders). However as long as the chart its within depth of field at the pixel level , then it's simply not an issue, at least in terms of any practical effect on the test result. The fundamental error you're making is in considering the lens focus distance, as reported in the EXIF, to be a literal measure of the camera to chart distance.

Anyway, you didn't aswer my question. Do you think any of those chart shots are out of focus?

--
Andy Westlake
dpreview.com
 
The DOF issue with the 14-42mm is that it's an F3.5-5.6 lens on Four
Thirds
. This means that it gives the least background blur, and thus
DOF control, of any current standard zoom lens.

So in this case, the issue is very distinctly related to the lens
itself as well as the format.
So why not also criticize the lens for having excess noise, or lousy dynamic range, or whatever other faults the "E" system cameras are supposed to have?

The DOF crticism is using the platform of a lens review to criticize the camera body system.

--
Big Mike
http://www.bigmikephotoblog.com
 
or is what you are saying, that on Mondays the chart is 1.365m away,
and on Tuesdays it could be 1.51m away, maybe its me, but that just
doesnt make sense.
No, the chart distance will be the same, but the lens's focus
distance won't necessarily be (especially using MF in those tiny Four
thirds viewfinders). However as long as the chart its within depth of
field at the pixel level , then it's simply not an issue, at least
in terms of any practical effect on the test result. The fundamental
error you're making is in considering the lens focus distance, as
reported in the EXIF, to be a literal measure of the camera to chart
distance.
i believe the EXIF provides a true record of the focus point distance, and some of them have the same distance as the trig result, some do not
Anyway, you didn't aswer my question. Do you think any of those
chart shots are out of focus?
clearly some of them have to be off the actual focus
as even under the same conditions the focus points are different

but if i hear what you are saying,
i guess we are meant to add it to the list of stuff that doesnt matter
--
Andy Westlake
dpreview.com
--
Riley

I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous (just)
 
i believe the EXIF provides a true record of the focus point
distance
You're probably correct, although to the best of my knowledge noone has yet independantly measured the granularity, accuracy and reproducibility of the distance data as reported by the lens and recorded in the EXIF. You need to know this before making any firm conclusion.
and some of them have the same distance as the trig result,
some do not
Well, if you're trying to 'prove' some kind of error, list those which you think are incorrect, and calculate the DOF given the known FL, aperture and subject distance. If you find a clear outlier, check visually to see if this correlates with an OOF test shot. If it does, you may have a case.
Anyway, you didn't aswer my question. Do you think any of those
chart shots are out of focus?
clearly some of them have to be off the actual focus
as even under the same conditions the focus points are different
Again you are ignoring the fundamental concept of depth of field here.
but if i hear what you are saying,
i guess we are meant to add it to the list of stuff that doesnt matter
Stuff matters only if it materially affects a test result. You've not established that yet, and once again can't even point to any test shot which appears to be out of focus.

--
Andy Westlake
dpreview.com
 
No, the chart distance will be the same, but the lens's focus
distance won't necessarily be (especially using MF in those tiny Four
thirds viewfinders).
Why don't you use manual focus with magnified Live View facility which is far more accurate than focussing through any optical viewfinder of any size, because it's straight off the sensor with no mirrors involved?

--
Vaughan
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jvwpc/
 
i believe the EXIF provides a true record of the focus point
distance
You're probably correct, although to the best of my knowledge noone
has yet independantly measured the granularity, accuracy and
reproducibility of the distance data as reported by the lens and
recorded in the EXIF. You need to know this before making any firm
conclusion.
and some of them have the same distance as the trig result,
some do not
Well, if you're trying to 'prove' some kind of error, list those
im not attempting to prove anything
im simply asking a few pertinent questions
which you think are incorrect, and calculate the DOF given the known
FL, aperture and subject distance. If you find a clear outlier, check
visually to see if this correlates with an OOF test shot. If it does,
you may have a case.
data taken from EXIF for each res chart from the following reviews
camera..................E3.............E510............E410...........E330.
lens all 50/2
aperture all F6.3

focus dist..........(1.365m).......(1.51m).......(1.35m).......(1.405)

via dof calculated here
http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html
50mm lens
Subject distance 1.365 m
F 6.4 (F6.3 from EXIF but not available from dof calculator)

Depth of field
Near limit 1.3 m
Far limit 1.44 m
Total 0.14 m

In front of subject 0.07 m (47%)
Behind subject 0.07 m (53%)

i think there is some 'risk' that there are OOF res chart images
Anyway, you didn't aswer my question. Do you think any of those
chart shots are out of focus?
clearly some of them have to be off the actual focus
as even under the same conditions the focus points are different
Again you are ignoring the fundamental concept of depth of field here.
but if i hear what you are saying,
i guess we are meant to add it to the list of stuff that doesnt matter
Stuff matters only if it materially affects a test result. You've not
established that yet, and once again can't even point to any test
shot which appears to be out of focus.
i think even a marginal focus position will matter, after all thats why you commit to at least some geometry to set up the shot
--
Andy Westlake
dpreview.com
--
Riley

I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous (just)
 
Why don't you use manual focus with magnified Live View facility
which is far more accurate than focussing through any optical
viewfinder of any size, because it's straight off the sensor with no
mirrors involved?
We do, on any camera which has it.

--
Andy Westlake
dpreview.com
 
So basically, the results all cluster pretty well with the exception of the E-510, which looks to have a slightly long focus distance. So on to step 2, does the E-510 test chart appear to be out of focus?
i think even a marginal focus position will matter, after all thats
why you commit to at least some geometry to set up the shot
Actually, it isn't. The geometric alignment is to project a symmetric image onto the sensor, which is about up/down left/right centering, not distance.

--
Andy Westlake
dpreview.com
 
Why don't you use manual focus with magnified Live View facility
which is far more accurate than focussing through any optical
viewfinder of any size, because it's straight off the sensor with no
mirrors involved?
We do, on any camera which has it.
From the review of the L10:

'The L10 has an 8x magnified Live View feature in manual focus mode, this is activated by pressing the left or arrow then the set button. You can move the magnified point around the screen using the arrow keys. This feature is very useful for fine tuning manual focus.'

So presumably you did use Live View manual focussing for the 14-42 lens test?

So the snide comment about small four thirds viewfinders was unwarranted in this context.

I know people like Rriley are a pain in the backside, and I usually stay out of these silly debates, but it would be a lot more professional just to stick to the facts. It was a good review of a good (for a kit) lens. I don't believe any DPreviewers are biassed against four thirds, but throw away comments like that can lead to the impression that you are. The comment was probably made out of frustration and a need to retaliate a bit - quite understandable, but not professional. Just because you are being attacked does not mean you have to descend to the level of the attacker. Sermon over!

Vaughan
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jvwpc/
 
So basically, the results all cluster pretty well with the exception
of the E-510, which looks to have a slightly long focus distance. So
on to step 2, does the E-510 test chart appear to be out of focus?
E3 DoF AF
Subject distance 1.37 m
Depth of field
Near limit 1.3 m
Far limit 1.44 m
Total 0.14 m

E510 DoF MF
Subject distance 1.51 m
Depth of field
Near limit 1.43 m
Far limit 1.6 m
Total 0.17 m

E 410 DoF MF
Subject distance 1.35 m
Depth of field
Near limit 1.29 m
Far limit 1.42 m
Total 0.13 m

E330 DoF MF
Subject distance 1.41 m
Depth of field
Near limit 1.34 m
Far limit 1.48 m
Total 0.15 m

if the actual distance is 1.365m, then 0 cameras are out of the DoF range
but one is very close to out of DoF range
if the actual distance is 1.51m, then 3 cameras are out of the DoF range
if the actual distance is 1.35m, then 1 cameras is out of the DoF range
another 2 are very close to out of DoF range
if the actual distance is 1.41m, then 1 camera is out of the DoF range
another 2 are very close to out of DoF range
i think even a marginal focus position will matter, after all thats
why you commit to at least some geometry to set up the shot
Actually, it isn't. The geometric alignment is to project a symmetric
image onto the sensor, which is about up/down left/right centering,
not distance.

--
Andy Westlake
dpreview.com
--
Riley

I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous (just)
 
"The zoom ring falls naturally to hand, and overall the lens is perfectly well behaved, although manual focus can be decidedly hit-and-miss with the small viewfinders on these models (to be fair it works very well on bodies which offer live view with magnification)."
 
you're probably going to have to run a test that shows a difference before they'll revisit the issue. Without proof of an issue I doubt they'll justify the time.

I think it would be interesting.
 
There's one key point you're still missing here. If there really were such a variance in shooting position, coupled with focusing errors, then it would lead to clear inconsistency in the resolution results for the 10Mp Four Thirds cameras. But in contrast, they all give much the same result. So let's consider this in a bit more detail.

If that EXIF distance data is an accurate measure of camera is subject distance, then the inescapable conclusion would be that the E-510 result must be well out of focus, or the magnification of the shot must be different. In either case, the resolution result would be significantly different from the other 10 Mp Four Thirds cameras. But it isn't.

Also, you need to appreciate that these res charts are shot using manual focus bracketing. It makes no sense to go to the effort of setting up the camera and shooting the chart, then finding it's OOF. This effectively means that at least one (and in practice, probably several) in-focus shot is always obtained, and subsequently used.

What you've actually discovered is a concept familiar to anyone with a scientific or technical background, which is that even with the best will in the world, there will always be some variance between experimentally tested data, and the job of the investigator is to identify and minimise contributory factors. Naturally, we make every effort to do so.

So ultimately, the situation is that we have one piece of data (the EXIF distance) which looks wrong, but in fact very consistent resolution test results across the 10Mp Four Thirds cameras. And as yet we have no idea about the accuracy and reproducibility of that EXIF data.

So your complaint about shooting distance is interesting, but currently has to be filed as 'not proven' at best.

--
Andy Westlake
dpreview.com
 
As the chart appears to be in focus, focus bracketing was used to ensure the best focused chart was available for the test, and the resolution results are the same for the E410 and E510 (which are effectively identical for the purpose of this test as they have the same optical setup), the most likely explanation seems to be that the E510 tested did not accurately report the focus distance. In other words, this looks like a camera problem not a tester problem.

Robert
 
There's one key point you're still missing here. If there really were
such a variance in shooting position, coupled with focusing errors,
then it would lead to clear inconsistency in the resolution results
for the 10Mp Four Thirds cameras. But in contrast, they all give much
the same result. So let's consider this in a bit more detail.

If that EXIF distance data is an accurate measure of camera is
subject distance, then the inescapable conclusion would be that the
E-510 result must be well out of focus, or the magnification of the
shot must be different. In either case, the resolution result would
be significantly different from the other 10 Mp Four Thirds cameras.
But it isn't.

Also, you need to appreciate that these res charts are shot using
manual focus bracketing. It makes no sense to go to the effort of
setting up the camera and shooting the chart, then finding it's OOF.
This effectively means that at least one (and in practice, probably
several) in-focus shot is always obtained, and subsequently used.

What you've actually discovered is a concept familiar to anyone with
a scientific or technical background, which is that even with the
best will in the world, there will always be some variance between
experimentally tested data, and the job of the investigator is to
identify and minimise contributory factors. Naturally, we make every
effort to do so.

So ultimately, the situation is that we have one piece of data (the
EXIF distance) which looks wrong, but in fact very consistent
resolution test results across the 10Mp Four Thirds cameras. And as
yet we have no idea about the accuracy and reproducibility of that
EXIF data.

So your complaint about shooting distance is interesting, but
currently has to be filed as 'not proven' at best.
no problem, thanks for your time

BTW, any word on when the E3 res chart image at 1/2.7 compression will be posted?
--
Andy Westlake
dpreview.com
--
Riley

I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous (just)
 
The DOF issue with the 14-42mm is that it's an F3.5-5.6 lens on Four
Thirds
. This means that it gives the least background blur, and thus
DOF control, of any current standard zoom lens.

So in this case, the issue is very distinctly related to the lens
itself as well as the format.

--
Andy Westlake
dpreview.com
Andy,

Firstly thank you for taking the time and interest to respond tot he various posts on this thread so far - appreciate it.

Secondly, regarding DOF control, I feel I must be missing something completely so please bear with my ignorance. I thought that if we assume each lens to be the same aperture then, for any given framing of an image the DOF will be the same as it's a function of magnification and aperture alone? Put another way you would need to take into account the minimum focusing distance as well in making a judgement call on the DOF control available with any particular lens.

Finally the use of the word control is of course potentially misleading (on the basis you made it rather than the above) as given consistency of other parameters) this lens will permit more DOF than the others which some might see as a plus.

Anyway, thanks to doing the review and posting it.

--
  • enjoy your camera equipment -
 
no problem, thanks for your time
BTW, any word on when the E3 res chart image at 1/2.7 compression
will be posted?
It's already been done; as expected the difference is essentially zero.

--
Andy Westlake
dpreview.com
 

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