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Startling evidence in the Nikon vs. Canon debate

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how many complaints we have in this forum which most, 99% or so turn out to be "pilot error" threads we have in here in regards to the D300 ......

Personally I go by the presumption that there are just as many over in the Canon forum. People rushing to blame the cameras when it's really the "pilot" that is to say, the "photographer" not knowing how to use their camera & when there's an error - - best blame the camera as there's no way it possibly could be the person holding it & not knowing how to use it.

Why are you wasting time in two forums on this?

The nicest forum I know is a Nature & Wildlife forum where 95% of the shooters are Canon shooters. Many of them by now know I shoot Nikon. They don't care, nor do I care that they shoot Canon. What we all do care about is looking at & shooting wonderful shots & how to get better as photographers.

I would say we're all adults & realize that the camera is not really the issue - - the photographer is.

Now, please stop trolling & starting unnecessary "issues" in two forums - - here at DPR it causes "wars"

No camera's perfect - - no photographer is perfect.

Lil
--

The beginning of a gallery, showing my progression with help from caring friends especially on DPR, can be visited by friends & family at

http://lilknytt.zenfolio.com/

 
LilKnytt said:
Personally I go by the presumption that there are just as many over
in the Canon forum. People rushing to blame the cameras when it's
really the "pilot" that is to say, the "photographer" not knowing how
to use their camera & when there's an error - - best blame the camera
as there's no way it possibly could be the person holding it & not
knowing how to use it.
Click to expand...
Not saying this thread is anything but a waste of time, BUT...

IF the OP were on to something (which he's not), and IF there really were such a thing as the best brand (which there's not), and IF there were a valid method to measure equipment and user failures ... then wouldn't incidence of "pilot error" be just as big a concern?

If brand X is 100% reliable but too confusing to use properly, or even if they're just marketing to the wrong people (i.e., pro camera marketed to consumers), isn't that just as bad?
 
When a newly bought device fails you, it feels like some sort of treason. The d...ed machine you bought with lost of your saved money should simply work. With gear like photo cameras it's even worse. It can spoil your special moments that you wanted to capture for life. In some cases a failure can even lead to loss of already captured images. Infuriating. So betrayal is an understandable emotion in this situation.

I can sense that emotion also in your blog and now in your posting. But the title of your post suggest something else too. It has the taste of vengeance. Again, an understandable emotion given the circumstances, but .....

Don't get carried away by your emotions. They might distract you from the facts. In that sense the title of your post is a bit misleading, because it's not about facts. It's still about your emotions. You don't have startling evidence and as explained in many reactions you won't find any in these forums.

I would like to share some of my experience as a photographer working with some friends and colleages in our photostudio. We use all kinds of equipment from different brands. Film and digital SLR's from different brands (because brand A has a specific lens or feature which brand B doesn't have) but also medium and large size cameras. And you know what? They all break down every now and then (regardless of the brand or pricepoint). Most of the time at that crucial moment (that's why we always carry a spare).

Again, we can't say that brand A performs worse than brand B. What we can say is, that newly introduced models have relatively more failures than 'older' models (and shortly after use started). Teething troubles we call them. Yes, even that brand new very expensive medium format camera (the brand that went to the moon and back ...) had some issues. That's why we prefer to buy the top models at the end of their production cycle (much cheaper, all problems smoothed out). Early buyers are in a way the guinea pigs for the manufacturers. After the introduction of 'digital' in photography the lifecycle and because of that also the design and production cycles of cameras has shortened dramatically, leading to these kind of failures for all brands. On top of that the kind of failures with so much electronics involved are different. While my old mostly mechanical Leica could be brought to life by a slap on the back, electronics most of the time die completely if they go.

Bottom line. Let your emotions not get in the way of reason. If you have lots of expensive Canon glass you really shouldn't rush things. If you don't, you might switch to another brand like Nikon. But don't blame Nikon if it fails. Failures are a fact of life.
And iIf you are a great photographer you will make great pictures anyhow.

Best regards,

Ron
 
Let loose the baboons and rip'em to shreds. That will teach him to keep his mouth shut. Free speech is too dangerous for us forum folks.

Why, I done made us a purdy rope with a noose fer that fellar's throaty pretensions!
 
TOF guy said:
Canon sells more dSLRs overall than Nikon: probably 25% more. > > > >
Click to expand...
I don't now how this myth continues. For more than a year Nikon has been the #1 DSLR seller in the world. Their lead is substantial, with more than 12% more of the market in their pocket. The D40 an D40X sales were a large part of this. Now with the D60, D300 and D3 out and the D90 on the way, I don't see Canon regaining their lost market share anytime soon.

Last thing I read said that Canon had a 3% lead in DSLR sales in the USA after Nikon closed a substantial gap. The momentum is clearly with Nikon.

--
Thomas (Lord Nikon!)
 
This should be moved enbloc to Open Forum - it is certainly a waste of space here!!!
Katsoulis said:
Recent camera troubles have caused me to wonder if there is some way
to logically determine which is truly better - Canon or Nikon.

Obviously there are many factors and different things will appeal to
different people in terms of build, response to light, etc. However,
today I struck upon an idea that I think will shed at least a little
light on the build quality of each manufacturer.

I went through the forums here for both Nikon and Canon, and tallied
up how many complaints were posted about equipment in need of repair.
I did not count any issues that were caused by damage or obvious user
error, but were rather discussing defects with cameras, lenses or
other items produced by either company. (I did not count any issues
with third party products.)

I scanned approximately 1,200 posts in each group and while I
expected the two would come out somewhat close, I was surprised to
find they did not. One manufacturer clearly is receiving more
complaints by nearly a two to one margin.

It is also worth noting that the level of upset and the character of
complaint from the manufacturer who received more complaints was
much, much stronger.

What conclusion have I drawn? Either one product has better quality
control or manufacturing, or the other group somehow appeals to
people who like to complain.

It is also possible my sample was not large enough, or that my
familiarity with one brand over another somehow influenced my choices
in some way that I am not conscious of. Therefore, rather than state
my results and numbers, I invite you to take a quick, or an in-depth
look yourself and see what you find.

My purpose is not to troll, but rather to decide if a switch is in
order or to decide if I picked the "winning" (or at least tied) team.

Let me know how you fare.

--
my blog:
http://www.1000demons.com

--
my blog:
http://www.1000demons.com
Click to expand...
--
Bryan

Just moved from Canon to D300 and building up the kit list.

and my wife has my Canon 40D etc

Still looking for a digital back for my Box Brownie.
 
From: http://www.news.com/8301-13580_3-9882670-39.html?tag=nefd.top

When it comes to the strategically important and fast-growing market of SLR cameras, Canon remained No. 1 worldwide in 2007 but lost share to Nikon, new statistics show.

Canon sold 3.18 million single-lens reflex cameras in 2007 compared with Nikon's 2.98 million, according to a study released Tuesday by market researcher IDC. That represents a 42.7 percent and 40 percent share, respectively, of the 2007 SLR market. It's a much narrower margin for Canon than in 2006, when it had 46.7 percent of the market, compared with Nikon's 33 percent.

Nikon SLR shipments grew at a 71.1 percent rate, much faster than Canon's 29.3 percent rate, IDC said. To be sure, unit shipments don't reflect another important aspect of market share--revenue, which IDC didn't detail. But Nikon released competitive higher-end models, the D3 and D300, in the second half of 2007, so there's plenty of pressure on Canon there, too.

The SLR market is of major importance to camera makers: it's competitive, and the

SLR market is far less saturated than the compact camera market, where camera makers are focusing on getting people to buy replacements or multiple models. SLRs offer much faster performance and higher image-quality than compact models, and lenses can be changed for different shooting styles. Thus, photographers have been flocking to SLRs as prices drop.

The overall SLR market surged 41 percent to 7.45 million units, much faster than the 22.7 percent growth to 123.3 million units for compacts, according to the IDC stats.

There, too, Canon faced pressure.

"The larger issue rests on repeat buyers looking for more camera at less of a price in years past," IDC analyst Christopher Chute said, and Canon has been trying to maintain higher average selling prices even as others cut prices.

In the total camera market, Canon's 18.8 percent share of units shipped gave it the top rank. Next in line are Sony with 16 percent, Kodak with 9.6 percent, Samsung with 9 percent, Nikon with 8.4 percent, and Olympus with 8.3 percent.
 
As others have pointed out, your methodology fails from a statistical standpoint. But after looking briefly at your blog and seeing that your 40D failed on the first day of your trip (which is horrible, by the way), I'm puzzled why you'd consider this course of action worthy of your time and effort.

If I were in your shoes, I'd be doing whatever it took to get my camera repaired or replaced rather than spending time online trying to validate my choice.
Katsoulis said:
Recent camera troubles have caused me to wonder if there is some way
to logically determine which is truly better - Canon or Nikon.

Obviously there are many factors and different things will appeal to
different people in terms of build, response to light, etc. However,
today I struck upon an idea that I think will shed at least a little
light on the build quality of each manufacturer.

I went through the forums here for both Nikon and Canon, and tallied
up how many complaints were posted about equipment in need of repair.
I did not count any issues that were caused by damage or obvious user
error, but were rather discussing defects with cameras, lenses or
other items produced by either company. (I did not count any issues
with third party products.)

I scanned approximately 1,200 posts in each group and while I
expected the two would come out somewhat close, I was surprised to
find they did not. One manufacturer clearly is receiving more
complaints by nearly a two to one margin.

It is also worth noting that the level of upset and the character of
complaint from the manufacturer who received more complaints was
much, much stronger.

What conclusion have I drawn? Either one product has better quality
control or manufacturing, or the other group somehow appeals to
people who like to complain.

It is also possible my sample was not large enough, or that my
familiarity with one brand over another somehow influenced my choices
in some way that I am not conscious of. Therefore, rather than state
my results and numbers, I invite you to take a quick, or an in-depth
look yourself and see what you find.

My purpose is not to troll, but rather to decide if a switch is in
order or to decide if I picked the "winning" (or at least tied) team.

Let me know how you fare.

--
my blog:
http://www.1000demons.com

--
my blog:
http://www.1000demons.com
Click to expand...
 
I would be interested in your impressions of the two sets of customers. Care to elaborate? Vastly different you say?
chuxter said:
I think your approach will tell you more about the customers than the
cameras. I find N & C attract vastly different types of people...

--
Charlie Davis
Nikon 5700, Sony R1, Nikon D300
HomePage: http://www.1derful.info
Bridge Blog: http://www.here-ugo.com/BridgeBlog/
'Experience: Discovering that a claw hammer will bend nails.
Epiphany: Discovering that a claw hammer is two tools...'
Click to expand...
 
TOF guy said:
posts trend to focus on the very latest models. Since Canon has
started to sell the 40D in large quantities, and there are probably 2
40Ds out there for 1 D300. Again this could explain the difference.
Click to expand...
As there are 450.000 to 500.000 Nikon D300 produced as of now, you say there have been 900.000 to 1 million Canon 40D been produced until now. Can you give a source for the Canon figure?
 
fnt said:
As others have pointed out, your methodology fails from a statistical
standpoint. But after looking briefly at your blog and seeing that
your 40D failed on the first day of your trip (which is horrible, by
the way), I'm puzzled why you'd consider this course of action worthy
of your time and effort.
Click to expand...
My camera IS in for repair. I don't see how one effort would preclude the other.

I am certain Canon will fix it in short order and return it to me. If this were an isolated issue, I would never have gone to such lengths. In fact, the previous EIGHT times I did not, but I saw an opportunity and I took it.

It is also interesting that many people appear to have jumped to a conclusion with regards to my results that may be in error.

--
my blog:
http://www.1000demons.com
 
On my first visit to the Nikon forums, this is the first thread I came across. Lots of inter esting perspectives here.

I'm new to dslr, but have read enought in the last 3 weeks to have an opinion here.

from what I have read here and in some other very active dslr forums, I would say tht a majority of dslr owners, at this point in time, are not skilled enough or experienced enough to be affected by the technical performance differences in the 2 brands.

The trouble with digital photography, as compared to, say, personal computers, is that the brand you initially choose overwhelmingly ends up being your brand for life due to the accessories/lens factor.

By a quirk of available deals, I ended up with a 350d and 400d from Canon, and less than a month later I have 2 new lenses (for 4 total), battery grip, remote, lens hoods and filters. It would be expensive and inconvenient to switch brands. With personal computers, if you use Windows and wish you could use a Mac, or vice versa, you can simply buy the brand you're 'missing' with your next purchase. Same with cars - got a Lexus and wish it was a BMW - problem solved with next purchase.

So, I'm a Canon owner who hasn't complained, so I will show up in market share and customer satisfaction surveys. Does that mean Canon is better and I'm happy? Unfortunately, not necessarily.

I was at the local camera shop this week to look at lenses, and the person next to me at the counter was looking at a D300 - I fell in love right there - no matter the ISO capability, or focus system or whatnot, the D300 made my head swim with it's beauty and strength, and I didn't even touch it.

Most likely I'll be using my 2 entry-level Canons for some time, but that picture of the D300 sitting on the sales counter will always be in the back of my head.

The best camera is the one you are happy owning, in my opinion, and what others think or say should be of little consequence, except for human nature, of course, which requires that we validate our decisions over and over.

I would drop in this forum more often, but reading about what it's like to own a D300 would be too much.

Edit: That said, I will focus on the art and challenge of capturing the best possible images, and learning the things that apply to any digital slr.
 
Katsoulis said:
My camera IS in for repair. I don't see how one effort would preclude
the other.

I am certain Canon will fix it in short order and return it to me. If
this were an isolated issue, I would never have gone to such lengths.
In fact, the previous EIGHT times I did not, but I saw an opportunity
and I took it.

It is also interesting that many people appear to have jumped to a
conclusion with regards to my results that may be in error.

--
my blog:
http://www.1000demons.com
Click to expand...
Hi Katsoulis,

The response you've met with here bemuses me frankly, but doesn't altogether surprise me! Clearly there's a lot of folks here who aren't really photographers ...they're camera accumulators ...or in some (very sad) instance(s) folks who wish to supplement the length of their reproductuive organ by buying a certain 'well reviewed' camera!

You see, you've threatened them ...god forbid you state that you may have found a trend or a pattern that shows a more dysfunctional brand and/or product that 'they' may actually own.

I myself am switching to the Big Nik after having spent well over a decade investing substantially in Canon EOS gear ...equipment that has required to be 'returned to base' more often than I care to quote ...and frankly my patience exhausted itself late last year ...I'm sick & tired of buying equipment that is not 100% functional (for even most of the time) after paying top dollar! The belief and trust has gone! But that's just me.

I immediately guessed the trend you'd unearthed ...and some would argue your DIY analysis is cr*p & amateurville ...and some as good as any (more well known) processes or trend analysts!

If your investigations aid your decision making process re' acquiring new hardware ...then good for you!

Regards

Mark
--
http://www.r3maf.com
 
Well, not that CR is the end all be all either but in their brand reliability ratings from customer feedback from 2004 to 2007, Oly and Canon are tied for first at 4 per 100, Fuji at 5 per 100 and Nikon in last at 7 per hundred... but then it goes on to say that variance's of 3 points or less are not meaningful due to changes in models and manufacturing. I think at the end of the day, there are bad models, bad productions runs and sometimes just a bad sample. The only camera repairs I have ever had to have done were on two of my Canon P&S and both were minor. I currently have 4 Canon P&S and 4 Nikon (D70, D40, D300 and D3) DSLRs and one Pentax DSLR (K10D). All of my DLSRs have been without issue. I just sold my K10D with 19k actuations on it.

I think that the OP has his 40D fail at a very inopportune moment. From the sounds of it on his blog, this is not the first time this has happened to him either. To the OP... all I can say is "sucks to be you" but I don't think you would find that Nikon is any more reliable than Canon were you to secure two more samples (e.g. a D300 and a new D40.) I would not make the choice to switch based on reliability (my perception is that more folks complain about Nikon service than Canon Service) but if you choose to switch, make sure it is for the better ergonomics, lens selection or superior flash system that Nikon Offers! ;)
 
Please give us your conclusion. Just because I am curious. Not that I will ever switch. My father-in-law is really unhappy about his Canon 400D and wants to switch. But that's another story.
 
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