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anyone considering DSLR ?? D60? D100? SD9 ?

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JLN

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I love my 707, really, but ...

When I look ot thoses wonderfull lenses you can put on thoses SLRs ...

And autofocus ... how manytime, shooting macro with my 707 I thought I was right in focus, and then uploading on my computer ... :-(
At least thoses 2 elements are pushing me to DSLR, but ...

weight, size, spare lenses ...

I just do'nt know ...

JLN

--
F707, BFS finally fixed ...
http://www.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=2332
http://www.pbase.com/jln
 
Our beloved DA comes quite close to DSLR image quality, IMO. I wouldnt exchange this little more quality against more weight. Thats a big advantage for me and thats lost in DSLRs.

I get 2cm Macro and 27mm to 650mm with two converters. I would need three big lenses with a DSLR.
 
Think about getting dust on the lenses and the expense/time lost having to send it back periodically. The DSLR will not insure every image you take with it will be better than with what you have now.It will however allow you to install better suited lenses on it for possible improvements to a wider range of images, but most of us would be hard pressed to get the full potntial out of the DSLR. I don't think too many of us are doing that now with the 707. A good experienced pro would utilize the interchangeability of lenses much more effectively than you or me.
John
Tigadee said:
You said it - Heavy weight, unwieldy size, numerous specialised
spare lenses... Ugh!

Just my F707, F1000 external flash, a couple of spare MS sticks and
me, that all I want to worry about!

--
Tigadee
Keep On Snappin'!
http://www.pbase.com/tigadee
Click to expand...
--
Seabee MCPO (ret)
 
p5freak said:
Our beloved DA comes quite close to DSLR image quality, IMO.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately it doesn't. No consumer cams for that matter come close to the smooth film like picture quality of the DSLRs.
p5freak said:
I wouldnt exchange this little more quality against more weight.
Thats a big advantage for me and thats lost in DSLRs.
Click to expand...
Yes, personal opinion. For others the flexibility of choosing lens, faster and more accurate autofocus, reduced shutter lag, better TTL flash exposure, possibility of shooting at ISO800/1000 and beyond indoor, bright optical pentaprism viewfinder, full control over DOF, DOF preview might count
p5freak said:
I get 2cm Macro and 27mm to 650mm with two converters. I would need
three big lenses with a DSLR.
Click to expand...
I don't want to start any argument. But calling a pseudo-closeup capability a macro is unfortunate. 2cm macro at wideangle with maximum barrel distortion and minimum working distance is nowhere near good. No comments on the converter converted wideangle and telephoto.

Finally it's what one prefers. Reduced weight of equipment at the expense of better quality and photographic flexibility. I'm not considering cost here because you get what you pay for. A used D30 with used primes or good zooms will give better pictures than f707 anyday and glasses area long term investment to be used for updated DSLRs and film SLR backups at the same time.

If you guys are happy with your DA that's good, I'm not happy with my s85 though. But for heavens sake don't compare them with DSLRs whether you buy it or not
 
I have a D60 on order. The suspense is killing me.

Consumer digital cameras are very impressive in their ability to squeeze decent images out of small, noisy sensors. However, there's no comparison to what digital SLRs can do. digital SLR shots look quite good viewed at full size, while consumer camera shots have a noisy, fuzzy look to them when viewed full size - yes even the 707.

The upshot is that you can do a lot more with an image from a digital SLR. You have much more flexibility for cropping.

There's also noise and dynamic range. Digital SLRs do a great job of holding shadow detail and do very well with noise levels through ISO 400. ISO 800 and higher are often quite usable too.

The main negatives are cost, weight, and the fact that you give up some speed in your lenses unless you're willing to get very big and expensive ones. For example, the Canon 24-85 zoom, which is a reasonable starter lens for a Canon system, has a min. aperture range of 3.5-4.5. So, with this lens you're giving up a stop and a half over typical consumer digital cameras.

If you want decent low-light focusing and decent shutter speeds without flash, you need to move either to the incredibly expensive 28-70L or go with a fixed focal length lens such as one of the 50mm options.

--
Ron Parr
FAQ: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.html
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/
 
Ron Parr said:
I have a D60 on order. The suspense is killing me.
Click to expand...
Will you be happy with the Auto Focus on the D-60? To me, the AF is the only feature preventing me from getting one. At least until they become more available and I can try one out in store.

Gallery - http://www.pbase.com/hb1840
 
I know that sooner or later I will...actually, that's not true...it'll definitely be later, when the cost comes down.

The two issues you mention here are the biggest reasons...lenses and autofocus.

Weight & size...hey, I schlepped around 35mm SLR gear all those years...I do like the size & weight of the DA, but I'd trade it for reliable autofocus in a heartbeat. If AF on the DA were better, I might be thinking differently.

Loren
JLN said:
I love my 707, really, but ...

When I look ot thoses wonderfull lenses you can put on thoses SLRs ...
And autofocus ... how manytime, shooting macro with my 707 I
thought I was right in focus, and then uploading on my computer ...
:-(
At least thoses 2 elements are pushing me to DSLR, but ...

weight, size, spare lenses ...

I just do'nt know ...

JLN

--
F707, BFS finally fixed ...
http://www.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=2332
http://www.pbase.com/jln
Click to expand...
--
http://www.pbase.com/lorenbc/
 
Loren Charif wrote:
If AF on the DA were better, I
Loren Charif said:
might be thinking differently.
Click to expand...
If you think the AF on hte DA is bad, you should try the Oly E-10! The Sony 707 is a vast improvement over the Oly. That being said, I loved the feel of the E-10. I appreciate the ability to literally shoot from the hip on the 707, but I miss a real viewfinder. I am not crazy about carrying around multiple lenses, and the cost is a factor, but I am leaning towards a D60 with an image stabilzed lenses to help my shaky old hands.

--
Mike Tichon
 
Ron Parr said:
The main negatives are cost, weight, and the fact that you give up
some speed in your lenses unless you're willing to get very big and
expensive ones. For example, the Canon 24-85 zoom, which is a
reasonable starter lens for a Canon system, has a min. aperture
range of 3.5-4.5. So, with this lens you're giving up a stop and a
half over typical consumer digital cameras.

If you want decent low-light focusing and decent shutter speeds
without flash, you need to move either to the incredibly expensive
28-70L or go with a fixed focal length lens such as one of the 50mm
options.

--
Ron Parr
FAQ: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.html
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/
Click to expand...
Hi Ron,

I was thinking about the Canon EF 28-135 mm F3.5 - 5.6 IS USM ...

But you're right, you loose one Fstop ...
--
F707, BFS finally fixed ...
http://www.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=2332
http://www.pbase.com/jln
 
Hans Bolte said:
Ron Parr said:
I have a D60 on order. The suspense is killing me.
Click to expand...
Will you be happy with the Auto Focus on the D-60? To me, the AF is
the only feature preventing me from getting one. At least until
they become more available and I can try one out in store.
Click to expand...
That's a tough one. I'm upgrading from an S85, so it shouldn't be too hard to impress me.

A lot of the complaints I've heard have been about the fact that there are just 3 focusing points and that it hunts in low light with slow lenses. It's not ideal, but I think I can live with these issues. I'm curious to see how hard it is to focus manually.

Unfortunately, with so many people stating conflicting opinions on this point, there's no way to know for sure until you've tried it for yourself.

--
Ron Parr
FAQ: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.html
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/
 
JLN said:
I was thinking about the Canon EF 28-135 mm F3.5 - 5.6 IS USM ...
Click to expand...
I go back and forth on this one. The 28-135 appears to be a sharper lens, but it I think the 24-85 has better contrast and color. Here's an example of this from Phil's D30 review:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canond30/page19.asp

In color, the 24-85 is very close to the benchmark 28-70, but the 28-135 seems a bit faded.

On the other hand, I've seen some shots from the 24-85 that look a little soft, esp. in the corners at the wide end. You can see this in the dcresource shots and in the imaging resource shots. I've never seen this with the 28-135, so I'm a little worried that I wouldn't be getting the max. benefit out of the D60's sensor with the 24-85.

As you can see, there's quite a range of opinions on this:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=2722483

The thread starts off with people telling this guy to go for the 28-135, then a bunch of 24-85 fans get involved...

Decisions, decisions...

--
Ron Parr
FAQ: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.html
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/
 
Ron have you considered the Tamron 24-135 f3.5/5.6 SP? According to ratings it's same or slightly sharper than the EF 28-135 IS and is reported to have excellent colour and contrast. Drawback is you loose 2/3 f-stop at the long end and may be slower autofocus.
Ron Parr said:
JLN said:
I was thinking about the Canon EF 28-135 mm F3.5 - 5.6 IS USM ...
Click to expand...
I go back and forth on this one. The 28-135 appears to be a
sharper lens, but it I think the 24-85 has better contrast and
color. Here's an example of this from Phil's D30 review:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canond30/page19.asp

In color, the 24-85 is very close to the benchmark 28-70, but the
28-135 seems a bit faded.

On the other hand, I've seen some shots from the 24-85 that look a
little soft, esp. in the corners at the wide end. You can see
this in the dcresource shots and in the imaging resource shots.
I've never seen this with the 28-135, so I'm a little worried that
I wouldn't be getting the max. benefit out of the D60's sensor with
the 24-85.

As you can see, there's quite a range of opinions on this:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=2722483

The thread starts off with people telling this guy to go for the
28-135, then a bunch of 24-85 fans get involved...

Decisions, decisions...

--
Ron Parr
FAQ: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.html
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/
Click to expand...
 
JLN said:
When I look ot thoses wonderfull lenses you can put on thoses SLRs ...
And autofocus ... how manytime, shooting macro with my 707 I
thought I was right in focus, and then uploading on my computer ...
:-(
Click to expand...
If you are in dying need for a D-SLR today, then you will get one no matter. Since I am not in any dying need, IMHO the existing D-SLR state just isnt stable yet.

Couple of issues were mentioned in the Pro Digitial Forum within a Contax thread related to the 1:1 36x24mm CCD sizing. 1:1 CCD D-SLR is curently very limited. But this we know will change as time goes on.

However, the other issue where I am more interested in is the claim made by Contax that existing top quality 35mm SLR lenses just will not be the same top quality lens when used with a 1:1 CCD. The explaination offered is existing 35mm lenses just arent big enough to allow the light to hit the CCD at a 90 degree angle and this create image quality issues at the edges such as color lost. Makers such as Nikon and Canon will need to come up with a new line of true digital lenses if they want to achive top image quality. How true is this? Time will tell ...

So the issue here, if true, is makers such as Nikon and Canon will stay with sub-35mm 1:1 size CCD to match with existing 35mm lenses, or they will introduce a new line of 1:1 CCD lenses hence requiring a whole new system investment. This is why I myself is staying on the sideline and just following the D-SLR development, but not considering it ...

--
jc
F707 w/ Nikon 5T/6T
http://www.reefkeepers.org/gallery
 
A.D said:
Ron have you considered the Tamron 24-135 f3.5/5.6 SP? According to
ratings it's same or slightly sharper than the EF 28-135 IS and is
reported to have excellent colour and contrast. Drawback is you
loose 2/3 f-stop at the long end and may be slower autofocus.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the suggestion about the Tamron! I haven't been able to find many samples from it and it's not ranked at Photodo. Do you have any links?

--
Ron Parr
FAQ: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.html
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/
 
Back to the original question, about considering a DSLR. Now that I've got my F707 and I'm thoroughly impressed with it, I would not get a DSLR anytime soon. The F707 is a great camera to learn about photography on (which I'm doing), but once I get a firm grasp on the art of taking photos I will definetly upgrade to a DSLR. That would probably be at least 2-3 years though, and by then I'm hoping the technology is improved significantly.

Is a DSLR better than my F707? I'd have to say yes. Even the E-10, a 4mp camera seems to take better pics than the F707. The ability to add lenses is also a major plus. But I just can't afford something like that right now.

-Shawn
Jimmy Chen said:
Jimmy Chen said:
When I look ot thoses wonderfull lenses you can put on thoses SLRs ...
And autofocus ... how manytime, shooting macro with my 707 I
thought I was right in focus, and then uploading on my computer ...
:-(
Click to expand...
If you are in dying need for a D-SLR today, then you will get one
no matter. Since I am not in any dying need, IMHO the existing
D-SLR state just isnt stable yet.

Couple of issues were mentioned in the Pro Digitial Forum within a
Contax thread related to the 1:1 36x24mm CCD sizing. 1:1 CCD D-SLR
is curently very limited. But this we know will change as time goes
on.

However, the other issue where I am more interested in is the claim
made by Contax that existing top quality 35mm SLR lenses just will
not be the same top quality lens when used with a 1:1 CCD. The
explaination offered is existing 35mm lenses just arent big enough
to allow the light to hit the CCD at a 90 degree angle and this
create image quality issues at the edges such as color lost. Makers
such as Nikon and Canon will need to come up with a new line of
true digital lenses if they want to achive top image quality. How
true is this? Time will tell ...

So the issue here, if true, is makers such as Nikon and Canon will
stay with sub-35mm 1:1 size CCD to match with existing 35mm lenses,
or they will introduce a new line of 1:1 CCD lenses hence requiring
a whole new system investment. This is why I myself is staying on
the sideline and just following the D-SLR development, but not
considering it ...

--
jc
F707 w/ Nikon 5T/6T
http://www.reefkeepers.org/gallery
Click to expand...
 
I'm going to have to agree with AD.

Personally, if I could justify the cost right now, I would get a DSLR in a heartbeat. More than likely a Canon because I simply like their lenses better.

I AM however going to wait till they come out with a chip that's the size of 35mm film and it would have to be Canon or Nikon. Again, I'd rather have Canon so I can slap that 85/1.2L lens on there. LOVE IT!

There's nothing like being able to put the lens you want on there to do the job and not being limited to just whatever comes on the camera.

I like my 505V and 707 but there's just something missing and it's just too hard to work with when you get up close to something compared to a full size SLR.

Interchangeable viewfinders (curse canon for not having that anymore) and all kinds of cool stuff.

ALso, when you have to start putting all kinds of converters and stuff (most of them will not be of good quality but in all cases, they will lower the quality of the image) on a lens, then you don't have the lens you really need.

Nothing like shooting lifesize (1:1) macro from a 200mm lens and standing a good distance away from the subject.

Or....putting a tiny 500mm mirror lens that you can shoot handheld with or maybe one of them huge 800/5.6's if you can afford one :)

Nah, it's just not the same thing

George
 
Ron this is a relatively new lens from the special performance series (like the Sigma Ex). I came across a review in a photography magazine that praised it a lot but you know you can't take those reviews seriously without any MTF data. Photodo doesn't rate this lens they are updated till 2000. You can get ratings based on user performance surveys at http://www.photozone.de

They have a small qualitative comparison between canon 24-85, 28-135 and the tamron 24-135 too at http://www.photozone.de/reviews/tamron24135.htm

I searched the canon slr forum and looks like some people use it. This guy has some photos taken with the lens http://www.sedasoft.com/galleries/ look into galleries 1-3. However, they're resized so may not be good enough to judge the quality. You may take user opinion at the canon forum flare problems seems to be a concern. Best is if you get both the lenses from your dealer and compare them. What else are you buying? 70-200 F4 L or 100-300 F5.6 L? All the best on your D60. I'm broke and have to wait long :-( for the DSLR move
Ron Parr said:
A.D said:
Ron have you considered the Tamron 24-135 f3.5/5.6 SP? According to
ratings it's same or slightly sharper than the EF 28-135 IS and is
reported to have excellent colour and contrast. Drawback is you
loose 2/3 f-stop at the long end and may be slower autofocus.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the suggestion about the Tamron! I haven't been able to
find many samples from it and it's not ranked at Photodo. Do you
have any links?

--
Ron Parr
FAQ: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.html
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/
Click to expand...
 
A.D said:
They have a small qualitative comparison between canon 24-85,
28-135 and the tamron 24-135 too at
http://www.photozone.de/reviews/tamron24135.htm
Click to expand...
Thanks very much for the link. I'm not so sure that the Tamron is any sharper than the Canons after reading this link. It seems like the main advantage is less barrel distortion at full wide.
A.D said:
I searched the canon slr forum and looks like some people use it.
This guy has some photos taken with the lens
http://www.sedasoft.com/galleries/ look into galleries 1-3.
However, they're resized so may not be good enough to judge the
quality.
Click to expand...
I notice that too and came to the same conclusion.
A.D said:
You may take user opinion at the canon forum flare
problems seems to be a concern. Best is if you get both the lenses
from your dealer and compare them.
Click to expand...
It would be nice if there were a practical way to try before I buy. I feel a little uncomfortable buying a lot of stuff and returning it, but this may be the only way to go if I can't find objective information.
A.D said:
What else are you buying? 70-200
F4 L or 100-300 F5.6 L? All the best on your D60. I'm broke and
have to wait long :-( for the DSLR move
Click to expand...
At least I feel lke I have a starting point for the shorter zooms. For the long zoom question, I'm really at a loss. It's great to have so many choices, but there are so many different lenses and price points with different tradeoffs between quality, price, size and weight that depending upon my mood any one of them might seem attractive. I do have a preferences for Canon lenses for guaranteed compatibility and USM motors.

I suspect that I'll ultimately wind up with a two-tiered approach. I'll probably get some relatively cheap lenses for starters and then purchase L lenses to address the areas where my cheap lenses are letting me down. I'll still keep the cheap lenses for use when weight/size are issues and for when other family members want to borrow the camera.

--
Ron Parr
FAQ: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.html
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/
 
johnd1 said:
johnD1 wrote:
Think about getting dust on the lenses and the expense/time lost
having to send it back periodically. The DSLR will not insure every
image you take with it will be better than with what you have
now.It will however allow you to install better suited lenses on it
for possible improvements to a wider range of images, but most of
us would be hard pressed to get the full potntial out of the DSLR.
I don't think too many of us are doing that now with the 707. A
good experienced pro would utilize the interchangeability of lenses
much more effectively than you or me.
John
Click to expand...
Well said... I certainly think I have to make full use of the F707 before graduating to something else. The F707 represents a pedestal for me, which no camera before has ever been.

Even after exploring the possibilities (and limitations) of the F707, I still don't think I'll upgrade to a D-SLR. It represents a level more for the technomages than a simple wiz like me... ;-)

--
Tigadee
Keep On Snappin'!
http://www.pbase.com/tigadee
 
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