wedding photographer and small claims court

ftcanon · Mar 18, 2008

Hello,

I have a question that I would like to get some assistance on. My wife and I recently got married. We paid a lot of money for our wedding pictures, and they came out awful. Let me describe what I mean by awful.

1. out of focus shots
2. blown highlights
3. no depth of field effects; most look like they were shot at f8 or higher
4. barely any frontal pictures; most are of our backs or sides
5. many random unimportant pictures
6. no pictures of my wife and her family

This pictures look like they were taken by someone who traded in their P&S cam for a professional camera and used it the day of our wedding. I know you are going to get some bad and ok pictures or random pictures, but we feel like most of ours are like that. My wife's cousin paid 1/3 of the cost of what we did and the pictures are so much better. We feel like we were taken to the cleaners.

I feel like I could have done better with my 5D, tripod, and remote shutter release. To be fair, there are some good pictures. The majority are just not professional quality. All of the feedback we got from our family and friends is that the pictures don't look professional.

Would we have a case in small claims court? I would really appreciate your feedback.

Christian Wright · Mar 18, 2008

ftcanon said:
Hello,

I have a question that I would like to get some assistance on. My
wife and I recently got married. We paid a lot of money for our
wedding pictures, and they came out awful. Let me describe what I
mean by awful.

1. out of focus shots
2. blown highlights
3. no depth of field effects; most look like they were shot at f8 or
higher
4. barely any frontal pictures; most are of our backs or sides
5. many random unimportant pictures
6. no pictures of my wife and her family

This pictures look like they were taken by someone who traded in
their P&S cam for a professional camera and used it the day of our
wedding. I know you are going to get some bad and ok pictures or
random pictures, but we feel like most of ours are like that. My
wife's cousin paid 1/3 of the cost of what we did and the pictures
are so much better. We feel like we were taken to the cleaners.

I feel like I could have done better with my 5D, tripod, and remote
shutter release. To be fair, there are some good pictures. The
majority are just not professional quality. All of the feedback we
got from our family and friends is that the pictures don't look
professional.

Would we have a case in small claims court? I would really
appreciate your feedback.

No.

Daemeon · Mar 18, 2008

I must ask, did you see ANY of his work prior to this? Even if it wasn't WEDDING work? Does this photographer have any professional experience?

What were the conditions under which the wedding was shot?
--
--The artist formerly known as The Krakken

RusYus · Mar 18, 2008

Do you mind giving approximate amount that you've paid?
"A lot" could mean different to people.

Any samples of the best pictures? This could help too. It is hard to judge anything without looking at actual work.

But from what you have described - i agree, this does not sound good. You probably could take him/her to court.

Did you look at the pictures when you were choosing a photographer for your wedding? Are they drastically worse than his portfolio? Did you look at a complete wedding done by him (not just a few best pictures from each wedding)?

Also, if he delivered you 2-3K of pictures, and most of them are so-so, but 300-400 are good - that is a complete different story...

photoshrink · Mar 18, 2008

Did you have a contract? Did you see the photographer's albums of other weddings he's done? If he showed you great pix of other weddings (maybe they weren't his shoots) and his pix of your wedding are cr-p, he may have committed fraud by misrepresenting his ability. Depends also on how much you paid him, to see if it's worth your time to sue. Since you mentioned small claims court rather than a state civil court, I'm thinking that you didn't pay him very much. In which case, the prior poster is right. Just wondering, did you get any references from other of his customers? If not, consider the money you paid this guy as your tuition.
--
Photoshrink, Ph.D.

'If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am only for myself, what am I? And if
not now, when?'

ftcanon · Mar 18, 2008

Their website looked great compared to what we have seen. I believe they had 10 years worth of experience. The ceremony was outdoor, and it was mostly overcast with some parts of blue sky. The sun came out after the ceremony where we were taking some more pictures outside. Most of the blown pictures are during overcast conditions. The reception was in a banquet hall.

5D Monster · Mar 18, 2008

ftcanon said:
I have a question that I would like to get some assistance on. My
wife and I recently got married. We paid a lot of money for our
wedding pictures, and they came out awful. Let me describe what I
mean by awful.

First, did you see the photographer work BEFORE you booked them? How does it compare with what you recieved on the day?

Second, did you have a contract from the wedding photographer?

Third, what stype of package did you book (inclusions, cost, coverage, etc)

ftcanon said:
1. out of focus shots

how many, what ratio.

ftcanon said:
2. blown highlights

How bad, what highlights (dress, face, etc...)

ftcanon said:
3. no depth of field effects; most look like they were shot at f8 or higher

wont hold up in court, creative flair and artistic vision can over rule this complaint unless you have definate samples of her work prior to booking that prove that this was their style.

ftcanon said:
4. barely any frontal pictures; most are of our backs or sides

See above (reply 3)

ftcanon said:
5. many random unimportant pictures

Everyone takes those pics, and yes even the Pros do. Its capturing the atmosphere and the moment.

ftcanon said:
6. no pictures of my wife and her family

did you give the photographer a specific shoot list, or pull them aside during the day and say WE WANT THIS DONE. If not, you will find it difficult in court.

ftcanon said:
This pictures look like they were taken by someone who traded in
their P&S cam for a professional camera and used it the day of our
wedding.

Thats very possible, but yuo obviously saw their work before booking them. If not, its buyer beware.

ftcanon said:
I know you are going to get some bad and ok pictures or
random pictures, but we feel like most of ours are like that. My
wife's cousin paid 1/3 of the cost of what we did and the pictures
are so much better. We feel like we were taken to the cleaners.

How many OTHER photographers did you meet with before booking the one you got. How did you dint them, what was it you liked about them?

Yuo possible were taken to the cleaners, if you didnt research your photographer and their talents/style before booking. Thats why Professionals like me get ticked off when a newb comes in and under cuts us, and gives all photographers a bad name with rubbish work.

ftcanon said:
I feel like I could have done better with my 5D, tripod, and remote
shutter release. To be fair, there are some good pictures. The
majority are just not professional quality. All of the feedback we
got from our family and friends is that the pictures don't look
professional.

Very possible, and family are not always the best to judge this. Speak to another local professional for his/her opinion. I have heard of complaints like this before, and they spoke to others before taking action.

Is this photographer you booked a patr of any associations? Take the complaint to them if you want to go further.

ftcanon said:
Would we have a case in small claims court? I would really
appreciate your feedback.

ftcanon · Mar 18, 2008

We did look at one other wedding they had posted online. They gave us the password to go look at all of their pictures, and they were pretty good. It was a full weddings worth of pictures. Shame on me for not doing more investigation. The cost was $3000. It's a lot of money for average to c--p pictures. We were delivered about 860 pictures. I would say we have 5 great pictures at best. There is probably a handful of good pictures. The rest just suck. I wish we had 300 to 400 good pictures. I don't want to post samples in a public forum. We did sign a contract. The contract is very general. The only real stipulation is that they say they don't guarantee and must have photos. That is a very general term.

ftcanon · Mar 18, 2008

5D Monster said:
ftcanon said:

I have a question that I would like to get some assistance on. My
wife and I recently got married. We paid a lot of money for our
wedding pictures, and they came out awful. Let me describe what I
mean by awful.

Click to expand...

First, did you see the photographer work BEFORE you booked them? How
does it compare with what you recieved on the day?

Second, did you have a contract from the wedding photographer?

Third, what stype of package did you book (inclusions, cost,
coverage, etc)

5D Monster said:

1. out of focus shots

Click to expand...

how many, what ratio.

15 - 20%

5D Monster said:
5D Monster said:

2. blown highlights

Click to expand...

How bad, what highlights (dress, face, etc...)

There were at least 100 with blown highlights. These are most of the outdoor shots with the wedding party and so on. It was on the beach, so the ocean, clouds, and sand in some cases are blown out.

5D Monster said:
5D Monster said:

3. no depth of field effects; most look like they were shot at f8 or higher

Click to expand...

wont hold up in court, creative flair and artistic vision can over
rule this complaint unless you have definate samples of her work
prior to booking that prove that this was their style.

5D Monster said:

4. barely any frontal pictures; most are of our backs or sides

Click to expand...

See above (reply 3)

5D Monster said:

5. many random unimportant pictures

Click to expand...

Everyone takes those pics, and yes even the Pros do. Its capturing
the atmosphere and the moment.

5D Monster said:

6. no pictures of my wife and her family

Click to expand...

did you give the photographer a specific shoot list, or pull them
aside during the day and say WE WANT THIS DONE. If not, you will find
it difficult in court.

We gave them a list (hand written unfortunately), and we did pull them aside and mentioned this twice.

5D Monster said:
5D Monster said:

This pictures look like they were taken by someone who traded in
their P&S cam for a professional camera and used it the day of our
wedding.

Click to expand...

Thats very possible, but yuo obviously saw their work before booking
them. If not, its buyer beware.

The work shown was good.

5D Monster said:
5D Monster said:

I know you are going to get some bad and ok pictures or
random pictures, but we feel like most of ours are like that. My
wife's cousin paid 1/3 of the cost of what we did and the pictures
are so much better. We feel like we were taken to the cleaners.

Click to expand...

How many OTHER photographers did you meet with before booking the one
you got. How did you dint them, what was it you liked about them?

We were both out of state, so it was difficult to meet with folks. There's nothing we could have done about that. There also isn't that many photographers in the area.

5D Monster said:
Yuo possible were taken to the cleaners, if you didnt research your
photographer and their talents/style before booking. Thats why
Professionals like me get ticked off when a newb comes in and under
cuts us, and gives all photographers a bad name with rubbish work.

5D Monster said:

I feel like I could have done better with my 5D, tripod, and remote
shutter release. To be fair, there are some good pictures. The
majority are just not professional quality. All of the feedback we
got from our family and friends is that the pictures don't look
professional.

Click to expand...

Very possible, and family are not always the best to judge this.
Speak to another local professional for his/her opinion. I have heard
of complaints like this before, and they spoke to others before
taking action.

That's good advice.

5D Monster said:
Is this photographer you booked a patr of any associations? Take the
complaint to them if you want to go further.

5D Monster said:

Would we have a case in small claims court? I would really
appreciate your feedback.

Click to expand...

Hey You · Mar 18, 2008

Thats a tough spot. If you feel they did a crummy job, then I would go back to them. See if you can work out some sort of compromise. Maybe provide you some group shots with your wife and her family if possible. I know it is after the fact but you still get those pictures.

Thats all I've got.

Mike

jlalor · Mar 18, 2008

It sure sounds like this photographer didn't do a good job. My cousin just got married, and my aunt hates most of the pictures from the pro, and actually loved a lot of mine from my 40D (and believe me, I am no pro).

I have visions of horror in my mind from your descriptions. Are there any photos you would feel comfortable posting? Perhaps with faces edited out, or something? It would be so useful to see how cr-p the photos are...

--
Jonathan

'Photography is a money-sucking black hole, and I've crossed the event horizon'

5D Monster · Mar 18, 2008

ftcanon said:
ftcanon said:

ftcanon said:

1. out of focus shots

Click to expand...

how many, what ratio.

Click to expand...

15 - 20%

Thats not as bad as you think, it means that you still have 80% plus of sharpe photos. I remember a seminar years ago, I wont mention names, but he is a famour photographer. He often shoots at 1/60 or slower for the whole day, he doesnt want/need every photo sharp.

ftcanon said:
ftcanon said:

ftcanon said:

2. blown highlights

Click to expand...

How bad, what highlights (dress, face, etc...)

Click to expand...

There were at least 100 with blown highlights. These are most of the
outdoor shots with the wedding party and so on. It was on the beach,
so the ocean, clouds, and sand in some cases are blown out.

Thats something that, under the conditions, may not have been avoidable. Sorry, but these things happen in photography.

ftcanon said:
ftcanon said:

ftcanon said:

6. no pictures of my wife and her family

Click to expand...

did you give the photographer a specific shoot list, or pull them
aside during the day and say WE WANT THIS DONE. If not, you will find
it difficult in court.

Click to expand...

We gave them a list (hand written unfortunately), and we did pull
them aside and mentioned this twice.

Then its up to you to drag the photographer to a spot, tell them to STAND THERE and take the photos you wanted before they left. I have done numerous weddings, where the B&G give me a list of photos they want, I do most but for some reason we cant find a person or 2. When the B&G come back and complain, we explain that we told them we need these people, we couldnt find them, they wouldnt go find them, and they accept thats what happened and move on.

ftcanon said:
ftcanon said:

ftcanon said:

This pictures look like they were taken by someone who traded in
their P&S cam for a professional camera and used it the day of our
wedding.

Click to expand...

Thats very possible, but yuo obviously saw their work before booking
them. If not, its buyer beware.

Click to expand...

The work shown was good.

In saying that, you may have a case if the style is TOTALLY different from what was displayed to you at the time of booking.

ftcanon said:
ftcanon said:

ftcanon said:

I know you are going to get some bad and ok pictures or
random pictures, but we feel like most of ours are like that. My
wife's cousin paid 1/3 of the cost of what we did and the pictures
are so much better. We feel like we were taken to the cleaners.

Click to expand...

How many OTHER photographers did you meet with before booking the one
you got. How did you dint them, what was it you liked about them?

Click to expand...

We were both out of state, so it was difficult to meet with folks.
There's nothing we could have done about that. There also isn't that
many photographers in the area.

I have taken bookings from interstate and international B&Gs myself, and without meeting them first. Its unfortunately a risk you have taken and sometimes it pays to meet with someone before you book.

Im sorry that this happened too you, and all I can say is speak with the PPA in the US and seek their advise before you go further. Who knows, you may end up on Judge Judy.

ftcanon · Mar 18, 2008

I appreciate all of the responses. I would rather no post especially if we do end up going to small claims court. I don't want to tie any of my pictures to an Internet forum.

5D Monster · Mar 18, 2008

and the right decision.

All the best and good luck

Joe Sesto · Mar 18, 2008

I'm no pro...but it is not unheard of pros double booking a time slot and giving an assistant the less important gig to shoot.

Don't think you mentioned who actually shot the wedding.

Also, you don't say where you are...but in CA Small Claims Court is up to $5000...others seem to think it is only for nickel and dime stuff.

As you admit some of the shots are good. IMO the best you could expect is a pro-rata return based solely on what was not done... that the pro previously agreed to do ...but didn't.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. Lack of quality is difficult to prove...failure to comply with contractual agreements is not so hard.

The overcast may have presented such difficult circumstances that the photog thought it better to capture the critical moments than chance missing them with equipment changes, etc.

You hint that you think some setups could have been reshot when the sun came out...but it doesn't seem that you asked that be done.

This is exactly why I've only shot one wedding in my life. I did it gratis for my neighbor (also a client and I was a director/officer of his corp.) ... gave him all the time and shots he wanted. I simply gave him the film (both 35mm & MF...I paid for the film) to get processed. He bitched at me about the processing...loved the shots. That was it...25 years ago...never did another wedding. Tough business.

--
Joe Sesto

Freeman-Jo · Mar 18, 2008

Whao, in some state the small claim court can run upto 5K and isn't a chuff change. Even if you paid somebody $6-7K, they might go to small claim court and take a loss for $1-2K simply because a lawyer can and may cost more than that.

But I do agree about the prior written contract and his other wedding album.

It's a delivery expectation. I'm pretty sure you will never get all 100% of what you paid back, simply because the work have been perform, but at what percent of the performance is done? Well the law work quite difference between selling good & services. Goods(product, grocer) have a very clear line, whether the goods was deliver or not, but as far as services goes, it can range from 50-90% performance and what state you are in, it can varied from state to state.

NOTE: this is not a legal advise and nor it meant to be legal advise. I don't practice law and if you need legal help, you should contact your local lawyer.

photoshrink said:
Since you mentioned small claims court rather than a state
civil court, I'm thinking that you didn't pay him very much. In
which case, the prior poster is right. Just wondering, did you get
any references from other of his customers? If not, consider the
money you paid this guy as your tuition.
--
Photoshrink, Ph.D.
'If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am only for
myself, what am I? And if
not now, when?'

--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
If picture worth a thousand words, how many megapixel is it?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
http://www.jotographer.com
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

mu55 · Mar 19, 2008

not specifically referring to your wedding shots because we obviously haven't seen them, but i'm getting alittle tired of everyone worrying about blown highlights - hasn't anyone tried shooting a person with slide film on a bright white beach in full sun light?, if your exposing for a persons face then alot of the time the clouds are going to be blown out if no the sand as well, but your not shooting the clouds your shooting the person.

A lot of wedding photographers also deliberately blow things out to create contrasty images with impact - but if you saw his stuff before hand that might not be the case.

I've shot three wedding and they all went pretty well. The number of "great" shots you got really doesn't sound good, I know I'm not a great wedding photographer but if I shot 860 photos I would expect about 400 of those to be good with about 70 being great and making up the album - It's so subjective though and I don't know how you'd go in a court situation.

Good luck sorting it out - you could also demand the RAW files and try and do your own post processing on them (assuming they even shot RAW)
--

bradleyg5 · Mar 19, 2008

Make a meeting with the owner or if it's a single man job with the photographer and pick out some key examples that you feel represent the problems you have with the work done, ask for an explanation and then try and discuss an acceptable compromise. You're never going to get a 100% refund from the guy but if you can properly express how disappointed you are with the photos and he is a good business man I think you will find it possible to come up with a solution or compensation.

What i would recommend against is immediately going and getting a lawyer and suing or taking some other overly aggressive action as most professional photographer i know are reasonable fair but if you corner them right off the bat they would react like anybody else and get overly defensive and you'd both end up wasting a lot of time and end up with a solution nobody is happy with.

Also I would recommend against not doing anything, if your not happy with something as important as your wedding photos you really should do something about it. again a photographer who is also a business person should know referrals are the bread and butter of wedding photography so having you upset with your results is bad for him and you.

Ok all of what I said above is me assuming this guy is reasonable and for all I know he could be a real jerk. But going in it with the attitude that this person purposely screwed you is only going to assure you have another bad experience. So ya go in with a reasonable attitude and then after you've talked to him a bit, showed him what is wrong with the pictures and had him explain himself, you should be in a good position to work something out. Of course you should be firm in your convictions and the negotiation part of it but being respectful and reasonable won't make any matters any worse.

Oh and also don't take this as legal advice it's more of conflict resolutions advice("easy to give hard to take" my professor always said)

65tigershark · Mar 19, 2008

I would also suggest that before you contact the photographer involved, I believe you and your wife should have worked out what you would like to occur, and be prepared to be a little flexible, that way you might be able to negotiate an acceptable outcome.

Not being a legal person I can't say for sure, but I would suspect having already attempted to reach an agreement might sit better when/if you end up in court, even small claims.

Just some views.

Andrew

bradleyg5 said:
Make a meeting with the owner or if it's a single man job with the
photographer and pick out some key examples that you feel represent
the problems you have with the work done, ask for an explanation and
then try and discuss an acceptable compromise. You're never going to
get a 100% refund from the guy but if you can properly express how
disappointed you are with the photos and he is a good business man I
think you will find it possible to come up with a solution or
compensation.

What i would recommend against is immediately going and getting a
lawyer and suing or taking some other overly aggressive action as
most professional photographer i know are reasonable fair but if you
corner them right off the bat they would react like anybody else and
get overly defensive and you'd both end up wasting a lot of time and
end up with a solution nobody is happy with.

Also I would recommend against not doing anything, if your not happy
with something as important as your wedding photos you really should
do something about it. again a photographer who is also a business
person should know referrals are the bread and butter of wedding
photography so having you upset with your results is bad for him and
you.

Ok all of what I said above is me assuming this guy is reasonable and
for all I know he could be a real jerk. But going in it with the
attitude that this person purposely screwed you is only going to
assure you have another bad experience. So ya go in with a reasonable
attitude and then after you've talked to him a bit, showed him what
is wrong with the pictures and had him explain himself, you should be
in a good position to work something out. Of course you should be
firm in your convictions and the negotiation part of it but being
respectful and reasonable won't make any matters any worse.

Oh and also don't take this as legal advice it's more of conflict
resolutions advice("easy to give hard to take" my professor always
said)

Michael Todd · Mar 19, 2008

If they fulfilled the letter of the contract, you probably don't have recourse.
--
peace

Todd Muskopf
Senior Photos and Portrait Photography
Dayton (Beavercreek) Ohio
http://www.muskopf.org
http://www.myspace.com/muskopf_photos
Member ASMP, NPPA, and NAPP

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