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Tony Fluerty

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I want to love this camera but the amount of noise evident even at iso 100 is really disturbing.
Like I said I really need to enjoy this machine.

I had a g3 a few years back and I can see better IQ in that camera than this one.

I love all the features that I find helpful in my 40d and have started to get to know this machine, but even when I use 1/3rd over comp I still get noise in the brightest almost blown out skies etc.
anyone got some wisdom on the issue???
cheers
--
snap
 
Since you state that you are shooting RAW, I'd stick to iso 80 and use RAW Image Task as converter. There you can see that the jpeg set at the lowest sharpening setting still is sharpened, but that you can tone this sharpening setting down in the RAW in RIT. Sharpening then should be done in PS. Not perfect, bur very acceptable and I'm not fond of noise myself either.
Tony Fluerty said:
I want to love this camera but the amount of noise evident even at
iso 100 is really disturbing.
Like I said I really need to enjoy this machine.
I had a g3 a few years back and I can see better IQ in that camera
than this one.
I love all the features that I find helpful in my 40d and have
started to get to know this machine, but even when I use 1/3rd over
comp I still get noise in the brightest almost blown out skies etc.
anyone got some wisdom on the issue???
cheers
--
snap
Click to expand...
 
Tony Fluerty said:
I want to love this camera but the amount of noise evident even at
iso 100 is really disturbing.
Click to expand...
Huh? If you find the G9 disturbing at ISO100 you need to get rid of it immediately and never buy a point and shoot again. This camera and every other p&s out there obviously doesn't fit the bill for the type of expectations you need.
Tony Fluerty said:
Like I said I really need to enjoy this machine.
I had a g3 a few years back and I can see better IQ in that camera
than this one.
Click to expand...
Please show us. I hear a lot of people say this but yet they never post any photos of a comparison to let us see this and want us to rely on their past memories and sentiments.

I have looked at the samples on DRP for both cameras, and if you either reduce the 12mp photos all the way down to the 4mp of the G3 or visa versa, then you want a magnifying glass to see any real difference at all.
Tony Fluerty said:
I love all the features that I find helpful in my 40d and have
started to get to know this machine, but even when I use 1/3rd over
comp I still get noise in the brightest almost blown out skies etc.
anyone got some wisdom on the issue???
Click to expand...
Yes. A couple of points of wisdom that you should have made yourself aware of before purchasing the G9 and maybe some points that may be of help if you keep onto the G9.

• You need to accept that it is a p&s and you need a complete "mentality" change towards the way you feel about performance and IQ with a p&s. If you still view, scutinize, and have expectations of performance and IQ from a p&s on the "same level" as you have now in the way you view and scutinize your DSLR images, then yes..... you are at the place where you are meant to be right now.....very dissapointed....because.......

• You won't get the dynamic range of the 40D with ANY p&s both past and present.

• You won't have the same noise levels (on any p&s) with a sensor that is way smaller to hold the pixels and especially in a raw v raw comparison. Your like someone who is complaining that you can't get the same mileage out of two cars when one had a 10 litre tank and the other has a 50 litre tank....go think about it.

• Despite what you say, you won't see any noise at monitor viewing and prints under A4 at ISO100. I can't even see noise at 7x5 prints at ISO800.

• If you do, you either have a faulty camera, you print and view too large and scrutinize your images way too much under a magnifying glass attitude.

• You views are contratidictory to what have been found in testing. DPR says "As Canon's flagship PowerShot compact you would expect good results from the G7, and it doesn't disappoint, producing output at ISO 80 that isn't significantly different to an entry-level digital SLR and kit lens combo."

• Remember that the G9 will give "acceptable" images where you would have gotten none with your 40D because you left your dslr at home which is the main point of buying a G9 in the first place.

• If you still can't accept the IQ or performance of the G9, then move on and don't waste your time with p&s's. You won't get it any better on any other camera p&s. Those DSLR owners that have migrated successfully have had adopted the "right" mentality and accepted the G9 for what it is. A camera that will delivery pretty good results and capture the memories where you would have missed them by leaving the DSLR at home. If you can adopt that mentality, then you can live in harmony with both systems. If you can't change your meticolous mentality and perfection towards the G9, then the p&s systems won't suit you so move on for your own peace of mind.

Myself? I have changed my attitude so much that my G9 has almost made my DSLR redundant! As we speak...I have it charged up and i'm off to shoot some Patrick's Day parade shots here in Ireland in an hour. And another beauty is that I will fit in with the crowd and won't stick out and attract attention like a photo-journalist which can make me feel uncomfortable and I can enjoy the event even more. No, I won't have totally noise free images or DR and performance on the level that you expect and yes I may lose some shots in the process. But my attitude now is "so what?"...it's no big deal, and it's certainly not life threatening. But I will come away with some fine keepers and memories and most of all I will enjoy myself and feel comfortable.

--
*****************************************
Packy
 
bartP said:
bartP wrote:
Since you state that you are shooting RAW, I'd stick to iso 80 and
use RAW Image Task as converter. There you can see that the jpeg set
at the lowest sharpening setting still is sharpened, but that you can
tone this sharpening setting down in the RAW in RIT. Sharpening then
should be done in PS. Not perfect, bur very acceptable and I'm not
fond of noise myself either.
Click to expand...
I don't see where he said he was using raw.

Also, RIT's results are essentially no different to jpgs shot in the camera. As a raw converter it is junk considering the damage it does to images and the lack of control you have with it.
 
Tony Fluerty said:
I want to love this camera but the amount of noise evident even at
iso 100 is really disturbing.
Like I said I really need to enjoy this machine.
I had a g3 a few years back and I can see better IQ in that camera
than this one.
--
Click to expand...
I have to disagree about the comparison of the G9 to the G3. I had -- in fact, still have and still use -- a Canon G3. When I got the G9, I immediately began comparing image quality, noise, etc to my old faithful G3 with respect to my normal operating and processing methods. If the G3 had been better, I'd have returned the G9. These articles (and more, check the links in the articles) on my blog describe those experiences:

My G3: http://lightdescription.blogspot.com/2007/10/but-first-word-about-g3.html

Comparison of images: http://lightdescription.blogspot.com/2007/11/comparison-g3-g9-s5-sd800-20d.html

Noise: http://lightdescription.blogspot.com/2007/10/g9-noise-in-garden.html

The G3 was and is a good camera; the G9 is a better one -- even if it is not perfect.

--
Gordon
http://hornerbuck.com
http://lightdescription.blogspot.com
 
Tony Fluerty said:
I want to love this camera but the amount of noise evident even at
iso 100 is really disturbing.
Click to expand...
If you are pixel peeping at 100% you will see noise. At ISO 100 a properly exposed image will show little noise and nothing that would be apparent in a normal print.

This suggests you are either exposing incorrectly and/or pixel peeping too much.
Tony Fluerty said:
I had a g3 a few years back and I can see better IQ in that camera
than this one.
Click to expand...
In what way did it have better image quality ? At pixel level ? Remember the relative impact of those pixels on a print.
Tony Fluerty said:
I love all the features that I find helpful in my 40d and have
started to get to know this machine, but even when I use 1/3rd over
comp I still get noise in the brightest almost blown out skies etc.
anyone got some wisdom on the issue???
Click to expand...
A small sensor camera has a smaller dynamic range than a large sensor. Blown skies are more likely.

If you expose for the sky you will get more noise, because the tone curve required to raise the resultant dark areas ( everything not sky ) will amplify noise ( as it would on any camera ). Because it's a small sensor you are amplifying more noise than a DSLR.

Shoot RAW and try to recover some lost highlight. That's about as much as you can do with a single image.

You could try HDR-like techniques to get a better sky and n on-sky with less noise, and/or multiple (averaged) exposures to try and lower noise.

However the small sensor and they tone curve being applied in-camera are two factors you cannot overcome in JPEGs.

--
StephenG

Pentax K100D
Fuji S5200
Fuji E900
PCLinuxOS
 
I always shoot raw and almost always shoot 1/3rd of a stop over.

I dont expect the G9 to have the same dynamic range as my 40d.

I expose for the subject not the sky and if I need I will do 2 exposures and blend them in photoshop.

comparing my images from my old G3 I find a lot less noise in good light everyday shots.

Of course there will be a lot more noise in very high dynamic spread , tricky conditions.

What I was hoping for was a few helpful hints ,What I seemed to receive from some was a type of childish self protection.

If all we can do, is stick up for our purchases and justify to ourselves that we made the right choice and come on here and attack aggressively then your not doing your self any favours at all.

I do know my way around a camera and I'm a semi professional.

here would be anxample of niose on the boys faces.

I know the focus isnt perfect it was a difficult shot through a narrow door way outside
shot at F4, iso 80, 1/40 of a second and 1/3rd over, one might expect less noise
present.

only superfine capture sharpening has been applied as I do in all my files run through Lightroom



snap
 
packy said:
Tony Fluerty said:
I want to love this camera but the amount of noise evident even at
iso 100 is really disturbing.
Click to expand...
Huh? If you find the G9 disturbing at ISO100 you need to get rid of
it immediately and never buy a point and shoot again. This camera and
every other p&s out there obviously doesn't fit the bill for the type
of expectations you need.
packy said:
Like I said I really need to enjoy this machine.
I had a g3 a few years back and I can see better IQ in that camera
than this one.
Click to expand...
Please show us. I hear a lot of people say this but yet they never
post any photos of a comparison to let us see this and want us to
rely on their past memories and sentiments.
I have looked at the samples on DRP for both cameras, and if you
either reduce the 12mp photos all the way down to the 4mp of the G3
or visa versa, then you want a magnifying glass to see any real
difference at all.
packy said:
I love all the features that I find helpful in my 40d and have
started to get to know this machine, but even when I use 1/3rd over
comp I still get noise in the brightest almost blown out skies etc.
anyone got some wisdom on the issue???
Click to expand...
Yes. A couple of points of wisdom that you should have made yourself
aware of before purchasing the G9 and maybe some points that may be
of help if you keep onto the G9.
• You need to accept that it is a p&s and you need a complete
"mentality" change towards the way you feel about performance and IQ
with a p&s. If you still view, scutinize, and have expectations of
performance and IQ from a p&s on the "same level" as you have now in
the way you view and scutinize your DSLR images, then yes..... you
are at the place where you are meant to be right now.....very
dissapointed....because.......

• You won't get the dynamic range of the 40D with ANY p&s both past
and present.

• You won't have the same noise levels (on any p&s) with a sensor
that is way smaller to hold the pixels and especially in a raw v raw
comparison. Your like someone who is complaining that you can't get
the same mileage out of two cars when one had a 10 litre tank and the
other has a 50 litre tank....go think about it.

• Despite what you say, you won't see any noise at monitor viewing
and prints under A4 at ISO100. I can't even see noise at 7x5 prints
at ISO800.

• If you do, you either have a faulty camera, you print and view too
large and scrutinize your images way too much under a magnifying
glass attitude.

• You views are contratidictory to what have been found in testing.
DPR says "As Canon's flagship PowerShot compact you would expect good
results from the G7, and it doesn't disappoint, producing output at
ISO 80 that isn't significantly different to an entry-level digital
SLR and kit lens combo."

• Remember that the G9 will give "acceptable" images where you would
have gotten none with your 40D because you left your dslr at home
which is the main point of buying a G9 in the first place.

• If you still can't accept the IQ or performance of the G9, then
move on and don't waste your time with p&s's. You won't get it any
better on any other camera p&s. Those DSLR owners that have migrated
successfully have had adopted the "right" mentality and accepted the
G9 for what it is. A camera that will delivery pretty good results
and capture the memories where you would have missed them by leaving
the DSLR at home. If you can adopt that mentality, then you can live
in harmony with both systems. If you can't change your meticolous
mentality and perfection towards the G9, then the p&s systems won't
suit you so move on for your own peace of mind.
Myself? I have changed my attitude so much that my G9 has almost made
my DSLR redundant! As we speak...I have it charged up and i'm off to
shoot some Patrick's Day parade shots here in Ireland in an hour. And
another beauty is that I will fit in with the crowd and won't stick
out and attract attention like a photo-journalist which can make me
feel uncomfortable and I can enjoy the event even more. No, I won't
have totally noise free images or DR and performance on the level
that you expect and yes I may lose some shots in the process. But my
attitude now is "so what?"...it's no big deal, and it's certainly not
life threatening. But I will come away with some fine keepers and
memories and most of all I will enjoy myself and feel comfortable.

--
*****************************************
Packy
Click to expand...
Packy I find your sarcasm less than helpful and just a tad distasteful.

I'm sure that if you put more effort into being more helpful and less into see your own ego typed out you would be a more useful asset to this forum.

here is some of my work just to show you that I do know my way around a camera.

Before the great critics comment the file sizes on my little flash show, the show was for a few select clients who wanted fairly large files to view
http://pillarcomputers.com/boneyfront%20page.html
--
snap
 
Tony Fluerty said:
Tony Fluerty wrote:
What I was hoping for was a few helpful hints ,What I seemed to
receive from some was a type of childish self protection.

If all we can do, is stick up for our purchases and justify to
ourselves that we made the right choice and come on here and attack
aggressively then your not doing your self any favours at all.

I do know my way around a camera and I'm a semi professional.
Click to expand...
The majority were not being childish and just posted the facts which you can't seem to handle. Except for the D3 comment which while maybe was a bit out of order, it did give you a hint about how people feel about how ridicolous your high expectations are for a p&s.

So the feelings coming from the majority of users here is that if you find the G9 disturbing at ISO100 then sell it as you have too high expectations for a p&s. There is nothing childish in comments or self protecting in that. We are the happy ones with the G9, remember!, so we don't need to defend our cams at all as they work well for our expectations.

And there are NO helpful hints available for what would be a physical problem at sensor level anyway. But the majority here do not see what your seeing and even DPR dosen't either. They stated in their strict testing (and what a lot of folks are getting too here).....is output at ISO80 that rival entry-level dslrs. So we really don't know where the hell you are coming from.

And if you are a semi-professional as you claim, you wouldn't be here looking for helpful hints and you could figure it all out by yourself. Even the children here know that there is no answer on how to overcome your noise and DR problems that are of a phyical nature on the hardware, so we would expect a semi-pro to understand that too. I mean.....What helpful hints were you hoping to receive here?....someone telling you how to take out the sensor and tweak it to make it less noisey and give it more DR?.

*****************************************
Packy
 
Well Packy all I can say is that there are more helpful ways of saying that ones expectations are a bit too high and to except the limitations of a p&s camera.
your comments smacked of sarcasm and were not as helpful as they could be.

Me I'm pretty thick skinned so I can cut through the rubbish and get to the heart of the matter and I will take what I can from any comments if it means I can learn from them.

I accept that I have high expectations for the G9 and they will have to be lowered

I also accept that I will really have to get down on it and try to get the best out of the thing.

Hard work does not scare me, but if I can find helpful hints that will save me time ,then I would be an idiot not to take them on.
Its common sense really

--
snap
 
packy said:
packy said:
Tony Fluerty wrote:
What I was hoping for was a few helpful hints ,What I seemed to
receive from some was a type of childish self protection.

If all we can do, is stick up for our purchases and justify to
ourselves that we made the right choice and come on here and attack
aggressively then your not doing your self any favours at all.

I do know my way around a camera and I'm a semi professional.
Click to expand...
The majority were not being childish and just posted the facts which
you can't seem to handle. Except for the D3 comment which while maybe
was a bit out of order, it did give you a hint about how people feel
about how ridicolous your high expectations are for a p&s.
So the feelings coming from the majority of users here is that if you
find the G9 disturbing at ISO100 then sell it as you have too high
expectations for a p&s. There is nothing childish in comments or self
protecting in that. We are the happy ones with the G9, remember!, so
we don't need to defend our cams at all as they work well for our
expectations.
And there are NO helpful hints available for what would be a physical
problem at sensor level anyway. But the majority here do not see what
your seeing and even DPR dosen't either. They stated in their strict
testing (and what a lot of folks are getting too here).....is output
at ISO80 that rival entry-level dslrs. So we really don't know where
the hell you are coming from.
And if you are a semi-professional as you claim, you wouldn't be here
looking for helpful hints and you could figure it all out by
yourself. Even the children here know that there is no answer on how
to overcome your noise and DR problems that are of a phyical nature
on the hardware, so we would expect a semi-pro to understand that
too. I mean.....What helpful hints were you hoping to receive
here?....someone telling you how to take out the sensor and tweak it
to make it less noisey and give it more DR?.

*****************************************
Packy
Click to expand...
by the way Packy I will let my photos speak for them selves sunshine
--
snap
 
Tony, were those boulder shots yours?

They are amazing Seprarian Concretions.

My folks collect and sell rocks and specimens - but the largest septarian specimens I've seen are about the size of an ostrich egg.

I had no idea such large boulders exised.

Very cool - and nicely shot and presented.

PS - I'm a very happy G7 user. I've had it since it first arrived in Canada in fall of 2006. I've taken about 4,000 pictures.

FYI - I primarily use C1 - custom set for P, AWB, continuous IS, - 1/3 as opposed to your +1/3 and vivid colours.

I'm experimenting with CHDK Raw - which allows one to turn of NR, and then do it in post processing - but for my purposes, mainly onscreen or 8x10 prints, the jpgs with minor pp are just lovely.

Cheers/b
 
thanks for the kind comments.
those rocks defy my simple level of understanding.
How they are fromed is beyond me.
the surf eats away at the cliff face and those round boulders emerge.
again cheers .
--
snap
 
Tony Fluerty said:
Well Packy all I can say is that there are more helpful ways of
saying that ones expectations are a bit too high and to except the
limitations of a p&s camera.
your comments smacked of sarcasm and were not as helpful as they
could be.
Click to expand...
......And calling us folks childish is not sarcasm, but real helpful?
Tony Fluerty said:
I accept that I have high expectations for the G9 and they will have
to be lowered
Click to expand...
Which was one of the helpful hints I pointed out to you in my response
Tony Fluerty said:
I also accept that I will really have to get down on it and try to
get the best out of the thing.
Click to expand...
Again which I pointed out to you in my response..... with the inclusion of that if it didn't work out then sell it.
Tony Fluerty said:
Hard work does not scare me, but if I can find helpful hints that
will save me time ,then I would be an idiot not to take them on.
Its common sense really
Click to expand...
Common sense. It was in abundance in our responses but you were not receiving. First your biggest problem...... noise at ISO100.

You're a semi pro DSLR user, right?. You process your images in Raw, correct?. You have a noise problem at ISO100, right?. The way around it?...... Given that we don't need to tell you the semi-pro user on how to expose your images correctly for noise, then the only helpful hint or "Common Sense" answer we could offer you was we to apply more noise reduction via your raw convertor or third party or accept the sensor for what it is. Is that such a childish response? So either lowering your expectations will help things from your end or selling the camera altogether to be rid of the problem is the only "Common Sense" alternatives we could offer you. That was my original response. Nothing sacastic or childish here, just plenty of common sense.

Now for the DR problem. Again you shoot raw don't you? So being an experienced semi-pro you also will know that you will get the maximun DR out of a raw file. If that DR is not good enough from the camera then yet again as above, "Common Sense" tells us that it is a hardware problem and yet again there is no other way around that either other than the usual stuff you already know about (HDR Shooting ect).

So there is nothing that we can tell you, "the experienced semi-pro user", that you don't know already about shooting with a G9 to make the best of your problems. We gave you all the neccesary advice with the main one being lowering your expectations. It is only a p&s for snapshots and a bit more, chrissakes. So it's you're the one that needs to exercise a bit more common sense.

--
*****************************************
Packy
 
Tony Fluerty said:
Well Packy all I can say is that there are more helpful ways of
saying that ones expectations are a bit too high and to except the
limitations of a p&s camera.
your comments smacked of sarcasm and were not as helpful as they
could be.
Me I'm pretty thick skinned so I can cut through the rubbish and get
to the heart of the matter and I will take what I can from any
comments if it means I can learn from them.
I accept that I have high expectations for the G9 and they will have
to be lowered
I also accept that I will really have to get down on it and try to
get the best out of the thing.
Hard work does not scare me, but if I can find helpful hints that
will save me time ,then I would be an idiot not to take them on.
Its common sense really

--
snap
Click to expand...
Tony, You do have my sympathy some loud shouting it seems going down just to much noise .we rejected the Canon G9 as it did not work for us but thats just our point of view .This is an unhappy forum It seems to me. I think some posters are less than helpfull and delight in shooting other people down in flames , it is noticable and it is not nice .

Also there seems to be some others Ive see examples in this topic who like to think they are speaking for the rest of us and that there point of view is the only one that count when in fact it is not proven beyond doubt it is just there own little opinion.

There are some who seem to love the G9 camera , there is anouther point of view that it is not all that. Seems to me both views are valid but depends on your own point of view others opinions do not matter a fig.
 
Tony,

You don't like our comments - fine. That's your choice.

Did we offer you helpful or unhelpful advice ?

Well, you've ignored it because "you're a semi-pro who knows what he's doing".

Have a closer look at your shot of the boys. It's over-exposed or you've processed to the point it has clipped highlights. The white balance looks wrong, which is not unusual with this scenario. That will automatically translate into a poor image on most cameras. You're the semi-pro - you figure it out. If you need help try looking up the terms "monitor calibration" and "expose to the right". Personally I'd say your monitor is not calibrated, at a guess, because you say you shoot RAW and, assuming you expose correctly, that's a likely issue.

The first step in getting help is accepting you don't know what's wrong. You seem to want to moan about your problems instead - tell Canon, not us.

And you need not worry Tony, I doubt you'll get getting any advice again.

--
StephenG

Pentax K100D
Fuji S5200
Fuji E900
PCLinuxOS
 
sjgcit said:
Tony,

You don't like our comments - fine. That's your choice.

Did we offer you helpful or unhelpful advice ?

Well, you've ignored it because "you're a semi-pro who knows what
he's doing".

Have a closer look at your shot of the boys. It's over-exposed or
you've processed to the point it has clipped highlights. The white
balance looks wrong, which is not unusual with this scenario. That
will automatically translate into a poor image on most cameras.
You're the semi-pro - you figure it out. If you need help try
looking up the terms "monitor calibration" and "expose to the right".
Personally I'd say your monitor is not calibrated, at a guess,
because you say you shoot RAW and, assuming you expose correctly,
that's a likely issue.

The first step in getting help is accepting you don't know what's
wrong. You seem to want to moan about your problems instead - tell
Canon, not us.

And you need not worry Tony, I doubt you'll get getting any advice
again.

--
StephenG

Pentax K100D
Fuji S5200
Fuji E900
PCLinuxOS
Click to expand...
Firstly Stephen I wasn't including you in any of my comments.
and I didn't say I didn't like all the comments.
Don't jump to conclusions so fast.

secondly I have looked at your blog and enjoyed your research.

thirdly I have not rejected any advise offered in this thread.

fourthly I did say that the photo of the boys was taken in difficult circumstances.

I was shooting from a dark inclosure out into a bright background, I expected the sky to be blown to pieces.
I didn't expect the boys face to have so much noise that's all.

Now if making a comment about me being a semi pro has upset you then that's your fault and yours alone. Get over it ,it only hurts you.

I didn't mention it to boost my own ego ,I only said it because its true ...but hey if you want to shoot me down for that go ahead I just don't care.

My main concern was about the childish way some of the advise was offered, not that the advise in and of its self was bad or incorrect in any way.
I moderate a small photo section on a forum.

If I posted responses full of scathing sarcasm like I have received from some posters on here , I would loose the respect of the others on our site.

I think its sad that people feel the need to respond like they have ,I mean they don't even have to respond if they think that the post is nonsense do they???

what is the driving force behind these sarcastic posts???? is it to truly help, or some other reason.

--
snap
 
Thank you for a bit of understanding.
I will stick to the G9 for the time being.

all I was trying to do was find out how others might have gotten good results ,cutting down on my own time learning how to get the best out of it.

there's no use reinventing the wheel is there ?,if someone else has had great results then I will follow their lead.

It seems that as soon as you say you get paid for your photos it gets up the nose of some punters which is very sad indeed.
Have pros and semi pros got a bad name on this forum???

I wont even reply to the big mouth guy anymore ,there's no point to it and frankly I'm embarrassed by it.
but again thank you for responding in a friendly manner.
cheers
--
snap
 
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