Auto focus

Is it not about time this forum put the issue of focusing with the G2 "to bed" The camera is perfectly capable of taking properly exposed & focused images (unless defective) if used properly. The problems are USER INEXPERIENCE. A simple search will produce happy users of the camera. They all can't be wrong. Learning photography in general as well as the camera's different modes are a MUST. I speak as someone who has taken over 2000 images without any problems I wonder how many would be purchasers have been put of by the misleading posts in the past?

Go and take a look at the review summaries in any copy of " What Digital Camera " magazine in the newsagents .

I wouldn't describe them as INEXPERIENCED USERS and they warn in their summary of the G2 under CONS to expect auto focus problems .

Robert Beacon said:

Is it not about time this forum put the issue of focusing with the
G2 "to bed" The camera is perfectly capable of taking properly
exposed & focused images (unless defective) if used properly. The
problems are USER INEXPERIENCE. A simple search will produce happy
users of the camera. They all can't be wrong. Learning photography
in general as well as the camera's different modes are a MUST. I
speak as someone who has taken over 2000 images without any
problems I wonder how many would be purchasers have been put of by
the misleading posts in the past?

Click to expand...

hmarok said:

Robert Beacon said:

Is it not about time this forum put the issue of focusing with the
G2 "to bed" The camera is perfectly capable of taking properly
exposed & focused images (unless defective) if used properly. The
problems are USER INEXPERIENCE. A simple search will produce happy
users of the camera. They all can't be wrong. Learning photography
in general as well as the camera's different modes are a MUST. I
speak as someone who has taken over 2000 images without any
problems I wonder how many would be purchasers have been put of by
the misleading posts in the past?

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

I read the review sometime ago and it did not say what the auto focus problems were They should have been specific if they wanted to be believed!

I have to agree (somewhat). My first camera was a Nikon CoolPix E880. It has a terrible (and damn noisy) autofocus. However, with time I was able to figure out the tricks required to get a goos focus most of the time.

The same id true with the G2. Most of the out of focus pictures I can attribute to user error (me!). One thing I do is to make sure there is not a really contrasty object on the background. This will throw the AF off.

Thanks!

--

jbstrick

John B. Strickland II said:

I have to agree (somewhat). My first camera was a Nikon CoolPix
E880. It has a terrible (and damn noisy) autofocus. However, with
time I was able to figure out the tricks required to get a goos
focus most of the time.

The same id true with the G2. Most of the out of focus pictures I
can attribute to user error (me!). One thing I do is to make sure
there is not a really contrasty object on the background. This will
throw the AF off.

Thanks!

--

jbstrick

Click to expand...

...I think you guys are a bit too nice with your cameras...

It is one thing to find tricks to circumvent the camera's weaknesses, but another to accuse oneself only not to use them to focus properly ! The camera is faulty in the first place, no ? There aren't such precautions to take in the SLR world for thr autofocus...

Personally, I'd say : The autofocus is definitely a weakness of DCs, but there are ways to deal with them.

Don't know if you've evr had an autofcus SLR . I've had a couple and my one - Pentax SFXn is now almost vintage. That focuses fast and accurate with no fiddling about a la G2!

Nobody can say the G2 is user friendly as far as focusing goes but you learn to work within its limitations. And it is capable when you get the tricks but it's a bit like parking your car on an incline so you can push start it due to a bad starter motor! The focusing needs attention, maybe in the next generation?

Robert Beacon said:

Is it not about time this forum put the issue of focusing with the
G2 "to bed" The camera is perfectly capable of taking properly
exposed & focused images (unless defective) if used properly. The
problems are USER INEXPERIENCE. A simple search will produce happy
users of the camera. They all can't be wrong. Learning photography
in general as well as the camera's different modes are a MUST. I
speak as someone who has taken over 2000 images without any
problems I wonder how many would be purchasers have been put of by
the misleading posts in the past?

Click to expand...

It is important to distinguish between a film-based SLR and ANY digicam. They use different mechanisms to focus. The G2 does not have problems with auto-focus per se; ALL digicams that use contrast-based focusing techniques will have the same trouble as the G1/G2. To say that the G2 is defective just doesn't hold up in light of the fact that the same contrast-based focusing is used in many brands of digicams, and they all suffer frm the same drawbacks, so it is unfair to compare the G2 with a film-based SLR; compare it instead to to other digitals and you will find that the G2 is about par.

--rhb

Graham Black said:

Nobody can say the G2 is user friendly as far as focusing goes but
you learn to work within its limitations. And it is capable when
you get the tricks but it's a bit like parking your car on an
incline so you can push start it due to a bad starter motor! The
focusing needs attention, maybe in the next generation?

Robert Beacon said:

Is it not about time this forum put the issue of focusing with the
G2 "to bed" The camera is perfectly capable of taking properly
exposed & focused images (unless defective) if used properly. The
problems are USER INEXPERIENCE. A simple search will produce happy
users of the camera. They all can't be wrong. Learning photography
in general as well as the camera's different modes are a MUST. I
speak as someone who has taken over 2000 images without any
problems I wonder how many would be purchasers have been put of by
the misleading posts in the past?

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Robert Beacon said:

Is it not about time this forum put the issue of focusing with the
G2 "to bed" The camera is perfectly capable of taking properly
exposed & focused images (unless defective) if used properly. The
problems are USER INEXPERIENCE. A simple search will produce happy
users of the camera. They all can't be wrong. Learning photography
in general as well as the camera's different modes are a MUST. I
speak as someone who has taken over 2000 images without any
problems I wonder how many would be purchasers have been put of by
the misleading posts in the past?

Click to expand...

one of the biggest problems. is that no one ever reads the manual and then tries it out after reading it. they simply post. the canon manual is actually pretty good, a few parts are a little fuzzy. but it's all those basic questions over and over... when all they had to do is flip to the back - why is my g2 not working - push the display button. i'm almost 100% sure it's in there.

anyway that's just a little pet peeve of mine...

---Mike Savad

--
http://www.pbase.com/savad/

Robert Beacon said:

Is it not about time this forum put the issue of focusing with the
G2 "to bed" The camera is perfectly capable of taking properly
exposed & focused images (unless defective) if used properly. The
problems are USER INEXPERIENCE. A simple search will produce happy
users of the camera. They all can't be wrong. Learning photography
in general as well as the camera's different modes are a MUST. I
speak as someone who has taken over 2000 images without any
problems I wonder how many would be purchasers have been put of by
the misleading posts in the past?

Click to expand...

Robert, many of are moving from film-based photography, and are very familiar with the limitations and quirks of autofocus systems. Having been spoilt by the lightning-quick reactions of Canon's ultra-sonic lenses and EOS shutter mechanisms, it's helpful to know what the limitations of digital are. Far from turning away prospective buyers, a board like this is quite useful in enabling other experienced photographers to share their thoughts on the limitations as well as capabilities of the camera, and it's not too difficult to figure out the experienced from those that are not. I now know what to expect from my forthcoming G2 purchase, and will use it as a nice complement to my EOS 3 slr system, keeping in mind the strengths and weaknesses of each.

Canonist said:

Robert Beacon said:

Is it not about time this forum put the issue of focusing with the
G2 "to bed" The camera is perfectly capable of taking properly
exposed & focused images (unless defective) if used properly. The
problems are USER INEXPERIENCE. A simple search will produce happy
users of the camera. They all can't be wrong. Learning photography
in general as well as the camera's different modes are a MUST. I
speak as someone who has taken over 2000 images without any
problems I wonder how many would be purchasers have been put of by
the misleading posts in the past?

Click to expand...

Robert, many of are moving from film-based photography, and are
very familiar with the limitations and quirks of autofocus systems.
Having been spoilt by the lightning-quick reactions of Canon's
ultra-sonic lenses and EOS shutter mechanisms, it's helpful to know
what the limitations of digital are. Far from turning away
prospective buyers, a board like this is quite useful in enabling
other experienced photographers to share their thoughts on the
limitations as well as capabilities of the camera, and it's not too
difficult to figure out the experienced from those that are not. I
now know what to expect from my forthcoming G2 purchase, and will
use it as a nice complement to my EOS 3 slr system, keeping in mind
the strengths and weaknesses of each.

Click to expand...

I bought the g2 at the end of January. Before i bought it i checked out this forum. Based on the comments i read at the time i was almost put off buying it. An e-mail to Don (a knowledgeable person in my opinion) assured me the camera was capable of producing good images If used properly it certainly is! This is the basis of my gripe about certain posters who seem hellbent on discouraging others from buying the camera.I am not suggesting that they are deliberatley doing it, but they should learn to use it before commenting on the possible drawbacks that they imagine If a lot of people are getting good images from the camera surely then there is nothing wrong with the autofocus As another poster points out it is NOT helpfull to keep comparing the G2 to film based SLR'S.

Robert Beacon said:

I bought the g2 at the end of January. Before i bought it i checked
out this forum. Based on the comments i read at the time i was
almost put off buying it. An e-mail to Don (a knowledgeable person
in my opinion) assured me the camera was capable of producing good
images If used properly it certainly is! This is the basis of my
gripe about certain posters who seem hellbent on discouraging
others from buying the camera.I am not suggesting that they are
deliberatley doing it, but they should learn to use it before
commenting on the possible drawbacks that they imagine If a lot of
people are getting good images from the camera surely then there is
nothing wrong with the autofocus As another poster points out it is
NOT helpfull to keep comparing the G2 to film based SLR'S.

Click to expand...

Robert

First of all, it seems that your post does anything but put the issue to rest. Personally, I think that since there are so many posts, and no way for a newbie to know which posters are reliable, or whether information posted in January is still up to date given that firmware updates have the potential to correct autofocus problems, you should expect inquiries to be posted--noone says that you have to read them. I know next to nothing about my G2 and photography in general, yet I get satisfaction out of helping others and may reply to their inquiries if I have had similar experiences or believe that I know the correct answer; of course I may be incorrect and I would hope that someone with more knowledge would constructively comment.

From my research, I've read posts from people who claim that they are experienced, possibly professional level photographers, and who are frustrated by the soft focus. Also as a new photographer, sometimes RTFM doesn't quite cut it.

Furthermore, it seems that a lot of the solutions are post production, and for photographers who are used to in camera solutions this may not be satisfying. I for one have learned a great deal from the negative posts and their responses.

I would also suggest to you that while your camera and the cameras of others may work perfectly to your eyes, (a) another's camera may not be working perfectly or (b) another may have a different expectation or opinion as to sharp focus.

It is helpful to compare the G2 to film based SLR'S. I think it is rather silly to say otherwise. Many people need to compare a digital camera to an SLR because that is their best frame of reference. Obviously, you simply need to realize that they are different machines (like a boat and a train they both may get you where you want to go or one may and one may not). I was originally interested in purchasing an SLR but then I compared it to a digital camera and realized that I really wanted the ability to see whether I got the shot I wanted right away. I also realized that I was potentially giving up detail (although some told me that there was no discernable difference).

The real failure is that there is a need for a comprehensive FAQ; some have made decent efforts to create their own. Obviously, it requires much effort but if you took on the FAQ for autofocus, it would eliminate many unecessary posts and you could organize it with pro and cons or however you like.

Sorry for ranting, but perhaps you will take me up on creating such a FAQ, and finally putting the issue to rest!

Allen, I couldn't agree with you more. As more users come to this forum for help, it's obvious the same issues are going to be raised. It's not always feasable to say "do a search for you problem" as so many threads are found and many have nothing or little to do with your search, it's difficult to sort them out. Your points are all valid and well taken, especially pointing out that no one is forced to read the posts that seem to upset them so much.

I for one am in the process of purchasing a Canon digicam and as I've already tried an A40 and S30 with AF low light issues, I'm very interested in all the new posts concerning the AF.

Rob

I really think that most of the prople, on this forum, who complain about the G2, are people who do not actually own a G2. They are a lot like people who go out and look at houses that they can't afford.

From some of the questions and comments on this forum, I am convinced that many of these people will never have the disposable income required to buy a G2.
How does someone who can't read an instruction manual afford an $800.00 camera?

Maybe some of these people actually own a Vivitar. Some slick sales person told them it was a G2 and now they are on this forum complaining.

Ed

I thought you were the guy that had no money to go out on a Friday night because you spent all your money on photography and gas?

The people who are complaining are too poor to buy a G2?

The real question is how does someone who can afford an $800 camera not read an instruction manual?

You have a good memory. Actually I'm too old and worn out to go out on Fridays.

I'm still new to the G2 and have not gotten all the tricks down for acheiving the perfect focus most of the time. It is obvious this is a great camera, but would there be so many complaints if it didn't have some limitations with the focus system? There are obviously tricks that you have to learn. You don't see near the number of focus complaints on Sony's forum or Nikon's forum. Perhaps Canon's focus algorithm does need a bit of work.

I have used a 1 Meg Kodak digital cam for many years and hardly ever had problems with the focus unless it was in low light conditions. Grated that camera has many other limitations, and that is percisely why I've upgrade to the G2. I'm not ready to take my G2 back, but if I take side by side pictures with my Kodak and G2, the Kodak will focus faster (and more accurately in the majority of brightly lit shots). Is this a difference between 1 Meg and 4 Meg?

Robert Beacon said:

Is it not about time this forum put the issue of focusing with the
G2 "to bed" The camera is perfectly capable of taking properly
exposed & focused images (unless defective) if used properly. The
problems are USER INEXPERIENCE. A simple search will produce happy
users of the camera. They all can't be wrong. Learning photography
in general as well as the camera's different modes are a MUST. I
speak as someone who has taken over 2000 images without any
problems I wonder how many would be purchasers have been put of by
the misleading posts in the past?

Click to expand...

You raised an interesting point which I have been thinking about too which is the more MP, the more difficult to focus using the current powershot focus algorithm. I don't have the technical background but just from how it is described, contrast based AF and since the more MP there is, the smoother the image or less contrasy ?

ddbailie said:

I have used a 1 Meg Kodak digital cam for many years and hardly
ever had problems with the focus unless it was in low light
conditions. Grated that camera has many other limitations, and
that is percisely why I've upgrade to the G2. I'm not ready to
take my G2 back, but if I take side by side pictures with my Kodak
and G2, the Kodak will focus faster (and more accurately in the
majority of brightly lit shots). Is this a difference between 1
Meg and 4 Meg?

Robert Beacon said:

Is it not about time this forum put the issue of focusing with the
G2 "to bed" The camera is perfectly capable of taking properly
exposed & focused images (unless defective) if used properly. The
problems are USER INEXPERIENCE. A simple search will produce happy
users of the camera. They all can't be wrong. Learning photography
in general as well as the camera's different modes are a MUST. I
speak as someone who has taken over 2000 images without any
problems I wonder how many would be purchasers have been put of by
the misleading posts in the past?

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

You may be on to something-- the higher resolution would require a tighter acceptable spec for AF.

Another thing that causes problems for digicam AF routines is movement of any kind. If the subject moves even slightly the camera will look instead for the non-moving background. If the camera itself is moving slightly, as it would in most people's hands, the AF could be fooled. I think this is one of the main reasons why pics of children and anmals are so hard to capure well. The delay in the AF process is also responsible, not for the blurriness but for poor composition and altogether missed shots...

--rhb

gary ng said:

You raised an interesting point which I have been thinking about
too which is the more MP, the more difficult to focus using the
current powershot focus algorithm. I don't have the technical
background but just from how it is described, contrast based AF and
since the more MP there is, the smoother the image or less contrasy
?

Click to expand...

But there are AF complaints on the other forums. I can think of a few reasons why there might be "more" complaints about the G2/Canon:

1) The G2 is selling very well, and the forum is very active.

2) Canon undersharpens images in camera compared to others - sharpening is best done in post processing.

3) The G2 max aperture is f2, which gives a softer image and narrower depth of field. Other digicams are often f2.8 or f4, which is sharper and has greater depth of field - it's easier to focus.

4) The G2 A, P and Tv modes with flash default to f2, which is softer - for sharper flash pictures you need to use Av mode (but watch out for underexposure).

There lots of complaints about G2 softness with f2 and f8 apertures - maximum sharpness for the G2 lens occurs at f4/5.6. The f2/8 softness sometimes gets mistaken for a focus problem, particularly when pics are viewed at 100% on a monitor - this usually works out to a huge 24 inch to 36 inch image size - far too big for a 4MP camera.

So why does a 1 or 2 Meg digicam look like it focuses better? It probaby takes most pictures around f4. It focuses faster because the depth of field is greater and there are fewer focus zones.

Re Gary's question, I don't think more MP cause a problem with AF. E.g. the G1 with 3 MP had more frequent focus problems than the 4MP G2. Vertical contrasty lines and edges in the image are what the algorithm needs to focus. The algorithm will look for changes in neighbouring pixels.
Hope this helps, GKL

gary ng said:

ddbailie said:

I'm still new to the G2 and have not gotten all the tricks down for
acheiving the perfect focus most of the time. It is obvious this
is a great camera, but would there be so many complaints if it
didn't have some limitations with the focus system? There are
obviously tricks that you have to learn. You don't see near the
number of focus complaints on Sony's forum or Nikon's forum.
Perhaps Canon's focus algorithm does need a bit of work.

I have used a 1 Meg Kodak digital cam for many years and hardly
ever had problems with the focus unless it was in low light
conditions. Grated that camera has many other limitations, and
that is percisely why I've upgrade to the G2. I'm not ready to
take my G2 back, but if I take side by side pictures with my Kodak
and G2, the Kodak will focus faster (and more accurately in the
majority of brightly lit shots). Is this a difference between 1
Meg and 4 Meg?

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Robert Beacon said:

exposed & focused images (unless defective) if used properly. The
problems are USER INEXPERIENCE. A simple search will produce happy

Click to expand...

Robert, statements like this are overgeneralized and too sweeping. I have a G2 and am very pleased with it, but I have found it to be difficult to get focused in certain lighting/subject matter situations.

There are definite AF weaknesses in this camera that need to be addressed.

Gene

--
http://www.NorthernJourney.com/