Are the glory days over for compacts?

Maybe they never had glory days, but it seems the last couple years has brought us nothing but mediocre, ho-hum cameras with nothing special in as far as features. Is it a simple fact that makers are putting all their efforts into DSLR's and features once on compacts have just migrated to their big-brother cameras?

I had hoped the Megapixel race was waning, but we now have 14MP compacts with even tinier sensors. Bah.

Keep in mind that compact cameras are mainly geared toward snapshooters. I think that features like image stabilization and face recognition (and someone even told me about a camera with SMILE recognition) is pretty interesting stuff. I mean, what is it you're looking for in a compact camera?

There have been quite a few very good compacts over the last two years, many, if not most, with very usable features such as extended zoom range, image stabilization, larger displays and others. Response and speed have also improved. Image quality at reasonable ISOs in many models is quite good, too.

If you're trying to make compact P&Ses the equal of DSLRs then they don't compare. But keeping within their context and the wide market they are sold to, P&S cameras do very well.

I'll agree, though, that we probably have enough pixels.

Rick

Superbaldguy said:

Maybe they never had glory days, but it seems the last couple years
has brought us nothing but mediocre, ho-hum cameras with nothing
special in as far as features.

Click to expand...

Compact cameras have actually been improving in some ways, but in other ways many of the latest models struggle to measure up to their predecessors because of the megapixel race. They have continued to cram more pixels in at the expense of introducing noise and then mitigating that with heavy-handed noise reduction.

Superbaldguy said:

Is it a simple fact that makers are
putting all their efforts into DSLR's and features once on compacts
have just migrated to their big-brother cameras?

Click to expand...

What about the Sigma DP-1?

Superbaldguy said:

I had hoped the Megapixel race was waning, but we now have 14MP
compacts with even tinier sensors. Bah.

Click to expand...

I know...when will it end? Regardless of how well the Sigma DP-1 sells, I think it will light a fire under other manufacturers. Sigma has provided the proof of concept that it is possible to put an APS-C sized sensor into a relatively compact camera. Now many manufacturers should be trying to figure out how they can build something similar but with more focal length options (either a zoom or multiple fixed focal lengths) and eventually a lower price tag... without increasing the size too much.

I think we will see more compact APS-C cameras in the near future, and since they will be targeting serious photographers these cameras will have excellent manual controls similar to entry-level DSLRs. Perhaps other sensor sizes will be explored as well... something a bit smaller than APS-C but still capable of better pixel quality in the 10MP range than the current compacts. Compact camera technology is still in its infancy when it comes to sensor technology. I think the glory days are yet to come, and while I am a DSLR shooter I do enjoy having a good compact camera. Currently I use a Panasonic LX2, which is an excellent compact camera in almost every respect... but the sensor is its biggest weakness. At low ISO settings it is capable of fantastic photos, but I wouldn't use it for low light shooting.

Sean

sean000 said:

What about the Sigma DP-1?

Click to expand...

Interesting concept. Here's some links to iso 400 images from that camera.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/nd-room/2307622178/sizes/o/in/pool-31167729@N00/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/nd-room/2306820131/sizes/o/in/pool-31167729@N00/

There are others as well. It's the first compact to offer DSLR IQ but you give up Zoom, 28mm equiv only. It's obviously a nich camera but could be quite useful if you can afford it as a second camera.

--
Tom

Pixel Peeping destroys the joy of photography

http://www.flickr.com/photos/25301400@N00/

My first camera was a 10mm film camera with tiny fixed-focus lens. It had 2 shutter speeds (1/125 for sun and 1/60 for clouds/flash). No zoom either! Picture quality, what was that?

That was the early 80's. Nowadays even cheap P+S cameras have auto-focus and some zoom. I would say the P+S customer is far better of today.

Whilst I have been impressed with some of the IQ coming out of the DP1 test shots, I really cannot see it leading to a whole new range of high end, high IQ compacts from manufacturers like Canon. Nikon etc...

The simple fact of the matter is, the DP1 is really not that revolutionary either in concept or execution. Sure it has a DSLR size sensor and a good quality lens all built into a compact size format, but you pay the price for that compact format in terms of a fixed 28mm lens, f4 max aperture and ISO 800 top end.

If we are honest, any of the big manufacture's could have produced an equivelent to the DP1 specifications at anytime over the last 3 years, the reason they haven't is very simple, it won't sell in the volumes that would make it worth while for the Canon's of this world to produce, they know their markets, and something like the DP1 simply has no place in their technology path.

If this sounds like Sigma bashing, you couldn't be more wrong, the DP1 has the potential to be a good, maybe even great camera, but it is always going to be a 'niche' camera, appriciated by the few, and totally ignored by the many.

Steve

There are some really nice P&S cameras out there . . . you just need to go out and see them in a store!

Not just read about them on the internet . . .

As for what many here consider 'the ultimate P&S camera' . . .

Well, the reason none of the camera manufacturers make them is because they know that those who are crying for them are not willing to pay the price that would need to be charged for this dream camera.

Look at the Canon 5D, for example!

People cried for a 35mm sized sensor DSLR that they could afford (ie.- less than the $8000.00 body offered by Canon at the time) . . .

So Canon gave them one . . . the 5D, significantly less at $3500.00 with a lens!

So . . . what did people do?

They pi$$ed and moaned because it wasn't less than $1000.00 . . .

A small number of shooters bought them at full price, but the majority waited . . .

The price came down . . . a few more bought them . . . the majority waited . . .

The price came down even more to today's level . . . a few more purchased them, but still the majority are waiting for the price to drop even more!

So . . . this shows how much incentive the camera manufacturers don't have to build that expensive dream camera that everyone wants, but are not willing to pay for.

--
J. D.
Colorful Colorado



Remember . . . always keep your receipt, the box, and everything that came in it!

Purely my opinion.

Look at the younger generation of happy snappers...what are they using?

Answer, cell phone.

Today, cell phone image quality may not be great at a reasonable price, but keep an eye out for dramatic IQ improvements.

Again, I suggest watching the young folks who ALL have a cell phone but don't want to carry around another piece of equipment just to snap occassional pics.

As a further argument, go to a concert and watch the young folks....they even snap pics of the big monitor using their cell phone. Go to a mall and just watch the young folks with cell phones taking impromptu pics.

Just watch the young folks and you may get a clue about the future of Point and Shoot cameras. Not today, but tomorrow which is not too far away.

jr

JohnRussell said:

Just watch the young folks and you may get a clue about the future of
Point and Shoot cameras.

Not today, but tomorrow which is not too far away.

Click to expand...

Today was tomorrow . . . yesterday! -})

--
J. D.
Colorful Colorado

Remember . . . always keep your receipt, the box, and everything that came in it!

First of all, what you are saying is true today, but are you familiar with the history of the digicam? It didn't use to be like that. Look at the Sony 717 series - totally unique body, ultra fast lens, exciting features. The Minolta AX series - pivoting high res EVF viewfinder, too many other features to mention. The classic Oly C-8080 with it's ultrasharp lenses. None of these cameras look like it's competitor - it was truely exciting to compare them. Now, almost every camera is a me too, generic pocket cam with high MP.

I think the point is that while digicams basically stick to the same size, shape, and features due to the mirror system, designers have full reign with a prosumer system to do anything they want. Detachable full finder? Tiny rangefinder? Ultra fast 1.8 or faster lens? Complex exposure and auto focus schemes since data from every pixel is available in real time? Answer the question: what point and shoot would you take on vacation as a back up or replacement for your dSLR? Not a lot of choices are there? How about a large sensor, fast fixed lens compact for general travel? A prosumer will not replace a dSLR, but they could supplement one.

A lot of people want a camera for a specific purpose, but don't want a dSLR system. Wide angle for real estate photography. Low light for interiors. Luckily the telephoto market is covered pretty well for some odd reason - now how about a fixed ultra wide angle?

Another side to the rant. Why are prosumers so slow? I don't mean AF, that's a design limitation, but with no mirror why can't they make them operate at 10 FPS, shoot RAW quickly, and start up instantly? That's only processing power, which is getting cheaper every year, but digicams haven't gotten that much faster as a result.

jezsik said:

Keep in mind that compact cameras are mainly geared toward
snapshooters. I think that features like image stabilization and face
recognition (and someone even told me about a camera with SMILE
recognition) is pretty interesting stuff. I mean, what is it you're
looking for in a compact camera?

Click to expand...

IS has been around in prosumers before the word was invented (think Oly-2100), so it's not very new technology. The other stuff is interesting, but really more of an advertising thing. People understand face recognition, they don't understand wide angle or noise or burst rate.

Digital photography really is a new field. The industry has moved from the horse and buggy stage of development to the model T. Its way to early to make any statements about this being dead or that being dead, except maybe APS format in film, and porlaroid.

I purchased the original (extra crispy) Canon Digital Rebel in 2004 - the revolutionary 6 megapixel camera under a thousand dollars. Since my purchase we have had the XT, XTi and now the XSi.

I personally believe range finders are going to experience a slow death, especially the high end range finders with crazy price tags. It just doesn't make sense to purchase a camera with one lens at one focal length. I do appreciate that range finders can be great in low light, but thats about it.
--
Rationally I have no hope, irrationally I believe in miracles.
Joni Mitchell

I bought my daughter a great 7 MP digital camera last month for under $150. The camera takes great pictures, it is fast, responsive and takes good movies. I think great progress has been made in bringing out great cameras for people at a great price point. Most people seem to forget that the Sony 717 cost more than most DSLRs, the same is true with the old Minolta Axx line.

For standard prosumer type cameras I think cameras like the new Sony 10x and Canon S5 seem to be pretty nice cameras for under $500. I don't see any of the major companies coming out with an APC size P&S camera. Any camera like that is going to be bigger than the Canon G line - probably 1.5 times bigger, at best have a 3x zoom and cost at least $850. I don't think you could convince any of the main companies that there is a market for that type of camera.

Most companies seem to see price as the main issue, with an uncertain world economy right now I think this trend will accelerate. Several companies barely survived that last major price cycle on digicams, when they got lazy selling simple P&S cameras for over $500. I don't think many are willing to take the risk with coming out with advanced high priced small cameras.
--
http://www.cbrycelea.com/photos/

Never cross in my mind.
But probably you are right.
I see the same thing in my country.

A cellphone sensor is even tinier than the IXUS !

It will make the manufacturer harder to make the picture as good as current P/S camera.

Well, let's see that in the future.

Possibly of interest. A 2007 study by Schneider Kreuznach in PDF format.

jr

http://www.schneiderkreuznach.com/pdf/mobil_phone_study_e.pdf

Look at Sigma DP1.
Small but has large sensor & less MP, but lack zoom.
It means good quality, more dynamic range (than other P/S cams),
I think it has enough MP for 8x12 inch printing with reasonable quality.

G9 / Nikon P5100
Small things that have many pixel is not bad if you stay at low iso.
It has hot shoe if you need a flash so you don't need to go to higher iso.
There are people who live with this noise.
For zooming, it offers 35-210mm equiv. It's not bad.
Who know there will be 24-300 with this format.

One that still missing here is ...
Small, pocket size like G9 / Nikon P5100, BUT
Still have zoom ability, good sensitivity / dynamic range, and a hot shoe.
Ofcourse M mode.
Fuji F31 is near this format.
The key in this kind of camera is LESS MP.
I assume F31 lover will like this.

For smaller format than 1/1.8 like Cellphone,

I think it will be more difficult to achieve the picture quality like three kind of cameras above.
But like someone has said, The trend is young folks like this habbit.

Let's wait until the time tell by Enjoying what camera that we have now.

Cheers

I hope they will success to make the cell phone as good as our P/S camera now.
By then,
It's easy to make the larger one, such our DSLR, far better than current DSLR.

Superbaldguy said:

Maybe they never had glory days, but it seems the last couple years
has brought us nothing but mediocre, ho-hum cameras with nothing
special in as far as features.

Click to expand...

The one thing I don't want on a camera is more 'features' - most 'features' are just gimmicks to entrap the innocent.

Superbaldguy said:

Is it a simple fact that makers are
putting all their efforts into DSLR's and features once on compacts
have just migrated to their big-brother cameras?

I had hoped the Megapixel race was waning, but we now have 14MP
compacts with even tinier sensors. Bah.

Click to expand...

Tinier than what? In fact I think most of the general whines about P&S cameras on this forum are not justified - failing to recognise how huge the performance leap in P&S cameras has been over the past five years or so. When I compare taken by my current Optio A30 with my Canon S45 of a few years ago, and even more so the Optio 430RS that I had earlier, or the 2mp K-M (or was it Minolta?) I had before that, I am amazed by the progress and what you get with tiny cameras today.

People complain about the megapixel race, while at the same time complaining about the lack of new (often useless), 'features' ... the camera makers can't win!
--
tim

I realize that many people thought that resolution is conected with the quality of their pictures.
Which is NOT ABSOLUTELY TRUE.

I assume that manufacturers being driven by people perseption in this case.

So they cramming more MP in small format which causing poor performance of sensitivity.

People achieve a blur picture if they shot at low light, or noisy picture that they don't like but they thought it is because their camera need more MP.
It will never end.

What your opinion about that ?

tbcass said:

sean000 said:

What about the Sigma DP-1?

Click to expand...

It's the first compact to offer DSLR IQ but
you give up Zoom, 28mm equiv only. It's obviously a nich camera but
could be quite useful if you can afford it as a second camera.

--
Tom

Click to expand...

My point in bringing up the DP-1 is that it is the first compact APS-C camera. That means there will be others, and you can bet they will offer zooms and eventually lower price tags. The DP-1 is the camera that could finally turn the megapixel race into the sensor size race among compacts.

Sean