Questions about lack of built-in focus drive

  • Thread starter Thread starter gail
  • Start date Start date
There are two main reasons I am considering a dslr:

1-much better high ISO performance than I'm getting with my compact
digital cameras.
The much larger sensors in the DSLR cameras yield better high ISO results. This is one case where size really does make a difference.
2-faster and more accurate auto focusing. I'm really interested in
developing my skills at photographing birds in flight. With regards
to this, I want predictive autofocus.
The thing I found most useful for shooting birds in flight (BIFs) was the seeming less lack of shudder-lag. When you fully depress the shutter release button the picture is taken, there is no perceptible shudder-lag. The other thing I discovered is that the lens can have a big impact on the time to focus, possibly even more influence than the camera. But as you move up the model lineup you get more choices for how the camera focuses, and I generally believe that more choices are a good thing.

This individual shoots a lot of BIFs and uses a D40, most of the time, and displays some beautiful results; take a look at some of his threads,

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/postersprofile.asp?poster=hjivijiehdig . I am supplying this as proof that BIFs can be successfully photographed even with an entry level camera.
I also enjoy photographing city and landscapes and taking natural
light photos of my grandchildren. So the thought of a f2.8 makes me
drool. If I think about my shooting style during the past years, I
love a long zoom.
F/2.8, or faster, lenses with few exceptions are pricey. The Super-Telephoto lenses are all now AF-S, but 300mm F/4.0 costs more than $1100, and the F/2.8 runs right around $4500; somewhat explaining the popularity of the much slower 70-300mm F/4.5-5.6 that can be purchased for less than $500.

For Grandkids something like the new Nikon 24-70mm F/2.8 might be perfect, but be prepared to pay around $1700; there is also the 17-55mm at around $1200 that is also a F/2.8 lens.

The bargain in fast lenses is the 50mm F/1.8 at around $115, which both fast and sharp, but it won’t AF on the D40/D60 cameras. There is also the 50mm F/1.4 at about 3X the cost, but again it is not an AF-S lens.
Many opine that manufacturer's are doing this on purpose, to drive
more people into the dslr market. Well, here I am.
I don't think that is the reason, I believe the reason is that even with today's advanced technology you can only do so much with the small sensors found in most of the digital cameras.
The thought of lugging around a heavy, bulky DSLR and lenses makes me
pause to think if I'm going in the right direction. Then I recall the
feel and responsiveness of a slr in my hands and the juices start
flowing.
The D80 weighs 1 pound 5 ounces, while the D60 weighs 1 pound 1 ounce; a difference of four ounces – the same as a stick of butter. The D80 is slightly bigger (WxHxD; 5.2x4.1x3.0 vs. 5.0x3.7x2.5) being two-tenths of an inch wider, four-tenths of an inch higher, and half an inch deeper. Not a lot of difference to be sure, but enough to make the two cameras feel different when you hold them. For some people the D40/D60 feels small in their hands (the Canon Rebels feel even more cramped). By comparison the D300 weighs 1 pound 13 ounces and is 5.8x3.5x2.9. Personally I don’t think a few ounces one way or the other are going to make a whole lot of difference, especially when you mount a fast lens (the 24-700 f/2.8 is only three-tenths of an ounce shy of weighing 2 pounds), but how the camera feels when you hold it may determine how much you use your camera. Ergonomics really comes into play with whether you will enjoy using your DSLR. I think the ergonomics of the Nikon are better than the ergonomics of the respective Canons, YMMV.

--
Brooks
http://bmiddleton.smugmug.com/
 
The Canon will be a fine camera for you Gail.........I hope you enjoy it and if not we will always be here.
--
Gene from Western Pa

http://imageevent.com/grc6
http://grc225.zenfolio.com/
FZ10....20 and 30 and FZ18

D50 ....D80 - 18 to 200VR- 50mm 1.8 - 80 to 400 OS



Just trying to learn and it's slow going!
 
This individual shoots a lot of BIFs and uses a D40, most of the
time, and displays some beautiful results; take a look at some of his
threads,
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/postersprofile.asp?poster=hjivijiehdig .
I am supplying this as proof that BIFs can be successfully photographed even with an entry level camera.

Wow, thank you for the link.
F/2.8, or faster, lenses with few exceptions are pricey. The
Super-Telephoto lenses are all now AF-S, but 300mm F/4.0 costs more
than $1100, and the F/2.8 runs right around $4500; somewhat
explaining the popularity of the much slower 70-300mm F/4.5-5.6 that
can be purchased for less than $500.
Yes, at this entry point the slower lenses are looking better.

When I photograph birds, I do so in bright light. With the better high ISO capabilities of DSLRs, I would be less fearful of shooting over ISO 100 as I am with my FZ18.
For Grandkids something like the new Nikon 24-70mm F/2.8 might be
perfect, but be prepared to pay around $1700; there is also the
17-55mm at around $1200 that is also a F/2.8 lens.
In the beginning, I'm going to have to decide my main use for a DSLR and it will be for telephoto use.
The bargain in fast lenses is the 50mm F/1.8 at around $115, which
both fast and sharp,
I've just been reading about them.

Do you, or anyone else, have any thoughts about the kit lens that comes with the Canon 450 or Nikon D60?
Many opine that manufacturer's are doing this on purpose, to drive
more people into the dslr market. Well, here I am.
I don't think that is the reason, I believe the reason is that even
with today's advanced technology you can only do so much with the
small sensors found in most of the digital cameras.
I agree, but they don't have to stuff so many megapixels in them, which negatively impacts high ISO performance and, according to some, overall image quality as well.
I think
the ergonomics of the Nikon are better than the ergonomics of the
respective Canons, YMMV.
That's why I qualified my statement. Last week I held a Canon 400 and a Nikon D40 in my hands, both with the kit lenses. The Nikon felt better. I'll wait to see if the new models feel differently.

btw, do you think the LCD on the Canon is too big? There is less real estate to grab onto on the back of the camera than there is with the Nikon.
--
gail ~ http://www.pbase.com/gailb

My digital camera BLOGs: Fuji F20; Pany FZ18 & TZ3; Canon S2, SD700 & A570; Nikon 5400
http://www.digicamhelp.com/camera-logs/index.php
 
The bargain in fast lenses is the 50mm F/1.8 at around $115, which
both fast and sharp,
I've just been reading about them.
It's worth keeping in mind, though, that the fast wide to normal Nikon primes, like the 50mm (1.4 & 1.8), as well as the highly regarded 85mm (1.4 & 1.8), will only AF on the D80 or higher, while the even less expensive Canon 50mm will AF on all Canon bodies.

--
Patco
A photograph is more than a bunch of pixels
 
It's worth keeping in mind, though, that the fast wide to normal
Nikon primes, like the 50mm (1.4 & 1.8), as well as the highly
regarded 85mm (1.4 & 1.8), will only AF on the D80 or higher, while
the even less expensive Canon 50mm will AF on all Canon bodies.
..or the Nikon D50, not so expensive used, and has 5 AF points.
 
It's worth keeping in mind, though, that the fast wide to normal
Nikon primes, like the 50mm (1.4 & 1.8), as well as the highly
regarded 85mm (1.4 & 1.8), will only AF on the D80 or higher, while
the even less expensive Canon 50mm will AF on all Canon bodies.
..or the Nikon D50, not so expensive used, and has 5 AF points.
Good point - let's add a used D70s, as well. It will also af all af lenses, and adds some features not found on the D50, such as a lighted top LCD, a wired remote option, and a basic wireless commander function. The out-of-camera jpg's are not as "poppy" as the D50, but the NEFs are about the same. Morris seems to do OK with it ;-)

--
Patco
A photograph is more than a bunch of pixels
 
In theory, as it would make all your lenses IS. But there's a long
debate about the two technologies, and many people believe that
in-lens VR (or IS) is better than the in-body one - especially when
used with longer focal lengths. If Nikon and Canon opt for in-lens
stabilization, I'd trust that :)
I'm not so sure, I have inbody IS and I really can't see how in the lens IS would have made any of my shots sharper. I think that both technologies work and therefore little practical advantage to in the lens IS argument. I'm no scientist but it just sounds more like marketing hype to me to justify higher prices for IS Lenses.
 
In theory, as it would make all your lenses IS. But there's a long
debate about the two technologies, and many people believe that
in-lens VR (or IS) is better than the in-body one - especially when
used with longer focal lengths. If Nikon and Canon opt for in-lens
stabilization, I'd trust that :)
I'm not so sure, I have inbody IS and I really can't see how in the
lens IS would have made any of my shots sharper. I think that both
technologies work and therefore little practical advantage to in the
lens IS argument. I'm no scientist but it just sounds more like
marketing hype to me to justify higher prices for IS Lenses.
I'm not sure, but I think I've read somewhere that in-lens IS offers a slightly better stop latitude. But in any case, in-lens IS also offers you the ability to actually "see" the stabilization, and thus allows you to compose your scene better - in extreme cases, a shaky viefinder could cause a shift in the AF point

--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/96953368@N00/
 
I'm not so sure, I have inbody IS and I really can't see how in the
lens IS would have made any of my shots sharper. I think that both
technologies work and therefore little practical advantage to in the
lens IS argument. I'm no scientist but it just sounds more like
marketing hype to me to justify higher prices for IS Lenses.
The jury is still out on which system is better. They both work. Major considerations to my mind:

a) IS/VR adds to the complexity of a cam and is another thing to go wrong. If IS is in body you completely lose the ability to take photographs in that event. If in lens you lose one lens.

b) a stabilised VF image is the only vialble option with a long lens (In theory live view onto the LCD should provide an alternative but in practice it will not work now and probably for another two years by which time most new lens will be IS and economises of scale will reduce the price.)
c) to my (non-scientific) mind tuning the VR to focal length makes sense.

P.S. I don't yet have a single VR lens. A fast lens will do most of what a VR lens will do and something it will not - stop action!

--
Chris Elliott

Nikon D Eighty + Fifty - Other equipment in Profile

http://PlacidoD.Zenfolio.com/
 
Do you, or anyone else, have any thoughts about the kit lens that
comes with the Canon 450 or Nikon D60?
The older Canon kit lens is universally acknowledged to be poor. The older Nikon has a good reputation. Both the new 18-55mm IS/VR lenses get good reviews. You can check them all out here:

http://www.photozone.de/Reviews/overview

Another good source for lens reviews is:

http://www.slrgear.com/reviews/showcat.php/cat/2
I think the ergonomics of the Nikon are better than the ergonomics of the
respective Canons, YMMV.
That's why I qualified my statement. Last week I held a Canon 400 and
a Nikon D40 in my hands, both with the kit lenses. The Nikon felt
better. I'll wait to see if the new models feel differently.
To my mind the feel of a camera is very important. Both of your front runners will I, am sure, take good pictures but you want to enjoy the taking of the pictures as well as the viewing of them.

I ended up making a table of Pros and Cons when deciding on my new cam when moving from Oly DSLRs 15 months ago. Deciding factors for me were good high ISO performance and a big viewfinder to see things in low light. You will have different priorities.

If you have not already come across it there is a very thorough positive review of the D40x here:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/D40X/D40XA.HTM

I would expect the D60 to improve modestly on that base. Note in particular the detailed comments on dynamic range where the D40X has one of the best of any DSLR. The D40x did not exist when I made my choice. It would have been made harder had it done so. On the strength of that review I recommended the D40x plus 18-135mm lens to my son who is delighted with it.

--
Chris Elliott

Nikon D Eighty + Fifty - Other equipment in Profile

http://PlacidoD.Zenfolio.com/
 
If I decide to get a camera that requires lenses with built-in IS,
would I not be better off getting a DSLR that has a built-in focus
drive?
All of the Nikon VR lenses you are likely to be looking at are also AF-S. The lack of an AF motor in the camera is unlikely to be a restriction for you.
 
Keep in mind that the newer bodies (like the D40/x and the
D60) can take the pre-AI lenses, that other cameras (like the D80)
can't without conversion. Those lenses are ridiculously cheap and
ridiculously good :) (Manual focus, of course)
Its irresponsible to say that without pointing out that the camera meter will not function under these conditions.
 
If I decide to get a camera that requires lenses with built-in IS,
would I not be better off getting a DSLR that has a built-in focus
drive?
All of the Nikon VR lenses you are likely to be looking at are also
AF-S. The lack of an AF motor in the camera is unlikely to be a
restriction for you.
Unless you're looking at the 80-400 VR.
Morris uses that lens a heck of a lot for BIFs.

--
Patco
A photograph is more than a bunch of pixels
 
If I decide to get a camera that requires lenses with built-in IS,
would I not be better off getting a DSLR that has a built-in focus
drive?
All of the Nikon VR lenses you are likely to be looking at are also
AF-S. The lack of an AF motor in the camera is unlikely to be a
restriction for you.
Unless you're looking at the 80-400 VR.
Morris uses that lens a heck of a lot for BIFs.
The lens is widely acknowledged to be slow to focus and thus something of a handlful. (Morris does wonders with it) It is long overdue for replacement. Sigma have an HSM alternative:

http://www.sigma-imaging-uk.com/lenses/telezoom/120-400mm.htm

--
Chris Elliott

Nikon D Eighty + Fifty - Other equipment in Profile

http://PlacidoD.Zenfolio.com/
 
If I decide to get a camera that requires lenses with built-in IS,
would I not be better off getting a DSLR that has a built-in focus
drive?
All of the Nikon VR lenses you are likely to be looking at are also
AF-S. The lack of an AF motor in the camera is unlikely to be a
restriction for you.
Unless you're looking at the 80-400 VR.
Morris uses that lens a heck of a lot for BIFs.
The lens is widely acknowledged to be slow to focus and thus
something of a handlful. (Morris does wonders with it) It is long
overdue for replacement. Sigma have an HSM alternative:

http://www.sigma-imaging-uk.com/lenses/telezoom/120-400mm.htm
Is that lens available yet?
The Sigma 80-400 OS would be a currently avalable alternative, which has an
in-lens focus motor, though not the HSM variant:
http://www.sigmaphoto.com/lenses/lenses_all_details.asp?id=3272&navigator=3
Sigma lists it as fully compatible with the D40/x:
http://www.sigmaphoto.com/news/news.asp?nID=3356

--
Patco
A photograph is more than a bunch of pixels
 
The lens is widely acknowledged to be slow to focus and thus
something of a handlful. (Morris does wonders with it) It is long
overdue for replacement. Sigma have an HSM alternative:

http://www.sigma-imaging-uk.com/lenses/telezoom/120-400mm.htm
Is that lens available yet?
Probably not. It is very very recent release.
The Sigma 80-400 OS would be a currently avalable alternative, which
has an in-lens focus motor, though not the HSM variant:
http://www.sigmaphoto.com/lenses/lenses_all_details.asp?id=3272&navigator=3
Sigma lists it as fully compatible with the D40/x:
http://www.sigmaphoto.com/news/news.asp?nID=3356
I checked it on Sigma UK's list and it was not there:

http://www.sigma-imaging-uk.com/quicklinks/HSM_lenses.htm

The detailed UK spec does not mention the D40 either! Hence my suggestion of the 120-400 which looks to be a better lens on paper.

--
Chris Elliott

Nikon D Eighty + Fifty - Other equipment in Profile

http://PlacidoD.Zenfolio.com/
 
The lens is widely acknowledged to be slow to focus and thus
something of a handlful. (Morris does wonders with it) It is long
overdue for replacement. Sigma have an HSM alternative:

http://www.sigma-imaging-uk.com/lenses/telezoom/120-400mm.htm
Is that lens available yet?
Probably not. It is very very recent release.
The Sigma 80-400 OS would be a currently avalable alternative, which
has an in-lens focus motor, though not the HSM variant:
http://www.sigmaphoto.com/lenses/lenses_all_details.asp?id=3272&navigator=3
Sigma lists it as fully compatible with the D40/x:
http://www.sigmaphoto.com/news/news.asp?nID=3356
I checked it on Sigma UK's list and it was not there:

http://www.sigma-imaging-uk.com/quicklinks/HSM_lenses.htm
Hmm... your link points to "HSM_lenses.htm". The 80-400 is a motor lens, but not "HSM".
The detailed UK spec does not mention the D40 either! Hence my
suggestion of the 120-400 which looks to be a better lens on paper.
From what I've read, it's fairly well established that the 80-400 will AF on the D40.
The Sigma USA folks believe it's so, anyway ;-)

Anyone here with a D40/x that can concretely confirm the af of the Sigma 80-400 OS?

--
Patco
A photograph is more than a bunch of pixels
 
Anyone here with a D40/x that can concretely confirm the af of the
Sigma 80-400 OS?
I think it pretty certain that Sigma US have got it right. I have never been impressed with the dynamism and industry of Sigma UK. I emailed and telephoned them witn a query as to the compatibilty of their flash with the D80 i.e did their top model have the same functionality as the SB600/SB800. Nobody knew the answer. I am still waiting for an effective reply 15 months later! (I gave up and bought the SB600 long ago)

--
Chris Elliott

Nikon D Eighty + Fifty - Other equipment in Profile

http://PlacidoD.Zenfolio.com/
 
Anyone here with a D40/x that can concretely confirm the af of the
Sigma 80-400 OS?
I think it pretty certain that Sigma US have got it right. I have
never been impressed with the dynamism and industry of Sigma UK. I
emailed and telephoned them witn a query as to the compatibilty of
their flash with the D80 i.e did their top model have the same
functionality as the SB600/SB800. Nobody knew the answer. I am still
waiting for an effective reply 15 months later! (I gave up and bought
the SB600 long ago)
I just did a little more digging. The German Sigma site has no mention of the
80-400 OS, B&H shows it as "back-ordered", and Adorama has only used.
It would appear it may be discontinued in favour of the 120-400 which you
mentioned earlier as probably being a better lens, anyway.

--
Patco
A photograph is more than a bunch of pixels
 

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