Canon has proclaimed, they will now be a follower

There has been plenty of dissatisfaction with Canon products in the last year. We have the problems with the 1DIII focus and the poor response from Canon. We have the truly crappy 3 inch LCD on 1DIII and 1DsIII, the small 11 RAW buffer on the 1DsIII just to name a few. I cannot believe how you can only view the LCD while indoors. Try to show someone a shot outdoors, it is truly amazing that they include this $5 LCD on an expensive (flagship) camera. Sometimes I cannot even read the histogram outdoors on my $8,000 1DsIII. Sure, the LCD looks great indoors while at a show.

I watched a video clip of Chuck Westfall answering questions at a (European) show recently. He was asked point blank, was it a mistake to release the 1D III with a crop sensor. His answer was that it was not a mistake because at the time of the release there was not any competition. When asked why Canon has not updated the 5D, same answer, they do not see the competitive pressure to release an upgrade.

They have all of the latest technology in all of their other cameras (except the 5D), even if they could save money by using the same parts they would not update a camera unless forced to by the competition. Even if they could save money and make their customers happy, they refuse, unless forced to do so by the competition.

I think Chuck is a great guy, I am pretty sure that he is just passing along the attitude of Canon executives. History has shown that in technology you end up with leaders and followers, Canon has clearly changed into a follower from a leader. I have no idea why Canon would change into a self proclaimed and self announced follower. History has shown that in technology business, life can be very difficult on the followers. Most technology businesses value being a leader in the business as one of the most important strategies, here we have Canon just get up in front of a camera and tell the world that they have changed into a follower.

About 1 minute 50 seconds into the clip you can hear the most amazing technology business announcement (to me at least), that Canon will now be a follower.
http://tv.mediaprovider.se/?id=1201953082154

Cameras are tools, pick a camera that makes your soul sing and be done with it.

But I strongly suspect that your post is not about cameras...

Marty Sedluk said:

There has been plenty of dissatisfaction with Canon products in the
last year. We have the problems with the 1DIII focus and the poor
response from Canon. We have the truly crappy 3 inch LCD on 1DIII
and 1DsIII, the small 11 RAW buffer on the 1DsIII just to name a few.
I cannot believe how you can only view the LCD while indoors. Try to
show someone a shot outdoors, it is truly amazing that they include
this $5 LCD on an expensive (flagship) camera. Sometimes I cannot
even read the histogram outdoors on my $8,000 1DsIII. Sure, the LCD
looks great indoors while at a show.
I watched a video clip of Chuck Westfall answering questions at a
(European) show recently. He was asked point blank, was it a mistake
to release the 1D III with a crop sensor. His answer was that it was
not a mistake because at the time of the release there was not any
competition. When asked why Canon has not updated the 5D, same
answer, they do not see the competitive pressure to release an
upgrade.
They have all of the latest technology in all of their other cameras
(except the 5D), even if they could save money by using the same
parts they would not update a camera unless forced to by the
competition. Even if they could save money and make their customers
happy, they refuse, unless forced to do so by the competition.
I think Chuck is a great guy, I am pretty sure that he is just
passing along the attitude of Canon executives. History has shown
that in technology you end up with leaders and followers, Canon has
clearly changed into a follower from a leader. I have no idea why
Canon would change into a self proclaimed and self announced
follower. History has shown that in technology business, life can be
very difficult on the followers. Most technology businesses value
being a leader in the business as one of the most important
strategies, here we have Canon just get up in front of a camera and
tell the world that they have changed into a follower.
About 1 minute 50 seconds into the clip you can hear the most amazing
technology business announcement (to me at least), that Canon will
now be a follower.
http://tv.mediaprovider.se/?id=1201953082154

Click to expand...

Question: How does any of this matter in any real way? Why should I care? Either their products will suit me or not, IMO there's nothing else there. There's no there there even, IMO.
--
JohnK
Take a picture, it'll last longer.

This is truly getting out of hand on these types of forums. Plenty of pros I know who shoot Canon are still making great images and will continue to do so. Sure, the focus issues on the MK-III are a pain as were the noise issues with the D2H when it came out.

See? NO COMPANY IS PERFECT!!

There is no leader, never has been, that was always a ego-driven figment of your imagination. A gear head dream, nothing more.

Canon will over come this and other problems. And those who choose to use their gear will be limited by talent and drive, not gear. Every single piece of equipment I use has limitations. None is perfect for everything. You simply work around the weaknesses and play off the strengths.

The 5D was Such a great camera to me as a working guy. Sure, I like my D3 a lot better, but that does not make the 5D a bad camera. And the fact I now use Nikon over Canon does mean Nikon is the better company. It means I had needs, I had the great fortune of having a choice and made it.

I have ten camera bodies and 26 lenses spanning Nikon, Leica and Hasselblad. Every one is the best camera or lens in the world for the task at hand.

How is a new thread on how much Canon sucks ( which it does not ) going to solve the problems?

It's not. I have talked to CPS in jest about what they think of some of the hype on these threads. They do as I do..

They laugh and shake their heads while paying very close attention to contracted shooters and the big agencies that bought a ton of their gear.

Well,

This a gear forum and he is talking about Canon 'gear' along with his experiences and opinions of this gear. So no need to chastise him. I really don't visit as much here anymore because I enjoy forum which are about taking 'pictures.' But just remember the audience and the intent of the forum you are in.

On the other hand if you are saying this because you disagree with his analysis of Canon becoming a fllower then say so.

I for one think that the sleeping giant is being called to 'wake up' and get back into the ring! Nikon and now Sony are entering a new era of FF high resolultion DSLR with or without Canon. So I hope this competetion will give them some incentive to step up there game. You may think they don't need to or are fine with an $8000 1DSIII. But the days of name your highest price and sell are limited IMO.

Won't all consumers win when Canon finally gets some competition at the high end? The only real debate is when that competition will arrive. Some feel that it has in part at least in the Nikon D3. And make no mistake that Nikon will step up their FF line as well as Sony with its new 24mp sensor.

--
Derek

While I think you are reading too much in to Westfall's responses I do find it amusing to watch his body language change when the interviewer begins to turn up the heat in his line of questioning. It's obvious to me that he does not feel comfortable with the FF vs APS-H question regarding the Nikon D3 and how it compares to the 1d MKIII.

I'm surprised that Chuck wasn't a little more prepared with some scripted responses to inevitable questions such as these. He definitely was backpeddling as opposed to pushing the sales. My interpretation of the latter statement is that he feels like Canon has definitely been caught with their pants down with the latest cycle of cameras. (I might be reading a little too much in to his responses too)

Despite the fact that Canon appears to have allowed themselves to get knocked to the canvas this time around I highly doubt the company is going to pay the price in the long run.

--
http://www.withorwithoutlight.com

Marty Sedluk said:

There has been plenty of dissatisfaction with Canon products in the
last year. We have the problems with the 1DIII focus and the poor
response from Canon. We have the truly crappy 3 inch LCD on 1DIII
and 1DsIII, the small 11 RAW buffer on the 1DsIII just to name a few.
I cannot believe how you can only view the LCD while indoors. Try to
show someone a shot outdoors, it is truly amazing that they include
this $5 LCD on an expensive (flagship) camera. Sometimes I cannot
even read the histogram outdoors on my $8,000 1DsIII. Sure, the LCD
looks great indoors while at a show.

Click to expand...

The poor LCD is truly a terrible thing. May I ask: outdoors, is the viewfinder information bar readable?

A short list of what I thought Nikon was missing, but maybe not any more:

1. Full frame cameras. Now everyone is coming out with full frame. No more advantage to Canon. I expect Nikon to come out with the D3X, and a 5D competitor.

2. Long lenses with IS. Nikon finally added IS or VR as it were to their long lenses. No more advantage to Canon.

3. Lenses prices. Before buying Canon I compared Canon and Nikon prices, Canon was much cheaper. But this maybe changing, for example, Canon's pricing of the new 200 2.0 is priced much higher than the Nikon 200 2.0. No more advantage to Canon.

4. Tilt shift lenses. It use to be Canon was the only one with tilt/shift lenses. Nikon calls these lenses "PC". Now Nikon announces a new line of PC lenses. No more advantage to Canon.

5. Fast wide primes. This is the only place Canon still leads. But I expect Nikon to announce new fast wide primes when they announce the D3x. And given Nikon's current history, these lenses maybe very sharp.

6. Because Nikon has to come out with new equipment to even catch-up with Canon, it results in Canon's equipment being dated. It appears all of Nikon new lenses are very sharp and of high quality. And there is just no telling when Canon will get around to updating their lenses, and if Canon does whether it will preform at the highest levels ( for example the Canon 14mm 2.8 II vs Nikon 14-24 2.8).

7. Just compare the number of lenses Nikon has announced vs Canon.

Dave

Do you honestly think that the head of a companies marketing department would stand up in public and tell you unannounced product plans and features?

Marty Sedluk said:

There has been plenty of dissatisfaction with Canon products in the
last year. We have the problems with the 1DIII focus and the poor
response from Canon. We have the truly crappy 3 inch LCD on 1DIII
and 1DsIII, the small 11 RAW buffer on the 1DsIII just to name a few.
I cannot believe how you can only view the LCD while indoors. Try to
show someone a shot outdoors, it is truly amazing that they include
this $5 LCD on an expensive (flagship) camera. Sometimes I cannot
even read the histogram outdoors on my $8,000 1DsIII. Sure, the LCD
looks great indoors while at a show.
I watched a video clip of Chuck Westfall answering questions at a
(European) show recently. He was asked point blank, was it a mistake
to release the 1D III with a crop sensor. His answer was that it was
not a mistake because at the time of the release there was not any
competition. When asked why Canon has not updated the 5D, same
answer, they do not see the competitive pressure to release an
upgrade.
They have all of the latest technology in all of their other cameras
(except the 5D), even if they could save money by using the same
parts they would not update a camera unless forced to by the
competition. Even if they could save money and make their customers
happy, they refuse, unless forced to do so by the competition.
I think Chuck is a great guy, I am pretty sure that he is just
passing along the attitude of Canon executives. History has shown
that in technology you end up with leaders and followers, Canon has
clearly changed into a follower from a leader. I have no idea why
Canon would change into a self proclaimed and self announced
follower. History has shown that in technology business, life can be
very difficult on the followers. Most technology businesses value
being a leader in the business as one of the most important
strategies, here we have Canon just get up in front of a camera and
tell the world that they have changed into a follower.
About 1 minute 50 seconds into the clip you can hear the most amazing
technology business announcement (to me at least), that Canon will
now be a follower.
http://tv.mediaprovider.se/?id=1201953082154

Click to expand...

The viewfinder information bar does not seem to be effected at all by outdoor light. The information is very readable in all light.

We all benefit from the sort of competition that Nikon is now providing.

As for the 1Ds3 screen, I can't read any of it outdoors sufficiently to be of any real help. I'm getting the new Hoodsman 3" viewer which I've been told should be available soon.

Is the Nikon D3 screen better, resolution aside? It's hard for me that any screen this size could be read in bright sunlight.

What bothers me most is that I suspect that the 1Ds3 is at least $4000 over priced. In fact, I suspect that in about one year, any of us who try to sell our 1Ds3 will be luck to receive $3000 for the camera.

Really fine lenses may be a different matter. I don't know. But, I have the impression that excellent lens performance requires finishing touches by a master lens maker that just can't be achieved on an assembly line. I may be wrong. However, if I'm not, then great lenses will continue to be quite expensive.

I wish I knew considerably more about the physics of light. Then I could separate the babble from the reality regarding questions of where we can go with sensor technology and lenses. I guess I should look around for an optics text for lay people.

I agree 100%.

And as far as fast wide primes go to me it really doesn't matter since Nikon's 14-24/2.8 zoom surpassed Canon's best and newest WA 14L II prime. To many that was huge step foward in lens technology by Nikon. And some have even built adapters to use the Nikon with their Canon bodies in manual mode simply because of its superior performance.

Since Canon just released their newest WA 'marvels' (14L II & 16-35L II) do you really think they will attempt to update them again any time in the next 10 years? I wouldn't bet on it.

--
Derek

I agree. That's like going to see David Copperfield and he says "Listen folks, this isnt the REAL Great Wall of China I'm going to through..."

Once again I got suckered into reading one of these "Canon sucks" threads. If people dont like what's coming out, then keep the stuff you have and upgrade the next round. If you're a pro, the 1d/1ds Mk II's were obviously good enough for years, it's not like it's going to take food off your plate if you still shoot with them. When are people going to realize that customer purchases, not competition, is what ultimately drives development??

spt_gb said:

Do you honestly think that the head of a companies marketing
department would stand up in public and tell you unannounced product
plans and features?

Click to expand...

Why not, Sony did with their new 24mp Flagship FF DSLR? They weren't affraid to give the public what they wanted - information!

--
Derek

Marty Sedluk said:

There has been plenty of dissatisfaction with Canon products in the
last year. We have the problems with the 1DIII focus and the poor
response from Canon. We have the truly crappy 3 inch LCD on 1DIII
and 1DsIII, the small 11 RAW buffer on the 1DsIII just to name a few.
I cannot believe how you can only view the LCD while indoors. Try to
show someone a shot outdoors, it is truly amazing that they include
this $5 LCD on an expensive (flagship) camera. Sometimes I cannot
even read the histogram outdoors on my $8,000 1DsIII. Sure, the LCD
looks great indoors while at a show.
I watched a video clip of Chuck Westfall answering questions at a
(European) show recently. He was asked point blank, was it a mistake
to release the 1D III with a crop sensor. His answer was that it was
not a mistake because at the time of the release there was not any
competition. When asked why Canon has not updated the 5D, same
answer, they do not see the competitive pressure to release an
upgrade.
They have all of the latest technology in all of their other cameras
(except the 5D), even if they could save money by using the same
parts they would not update a camera unless forced to by the
competition. Even if they could save money and make their customers
happy, they refuse, unless forced to do so by the competition.
I think Chuck is a great guy, I am pretty sure that he is just
passing along the attitude of Canon executives. History has shown
that in technology you end up with leaders and followers, Canon has
clearly changed into a follower from a leader. I have no idea why
Canon would change into a self proclaimed and self announced
follower. History has shown that in technology business, life can be
very difficult on the followers. Most technology businesses value
being a leader in the business as one of the most important
strategies, here we have Canon just get up in front of a camera and
tell the world that they have changed into a follower.
About 1 minute 50 seconds into the clip you can hear the most amazing
technology business announcement (to me at least), that Canon will
now be a follower.
http://tv.mediaprovider.se/?id=1201953082154

Click to expand...

Tosh. He's simlply saying that Canon has nothing to fear from any other manufacturer. Weathe that's true or not is another matter, but then a marketing man speak is notgoing to be very eduacational.

Marty Sedluk said:

I watched a video clip of Chuck Westfall answering questions at a
(European) show recently. He was asked point blank, was it a mistake
to release the 1D III with a crop sensor. His answer was that it was
not a mistake because at the time of the release there was not any
competition. When asked why Canon has not updated the 5D, same
answer, they do not see the competitive pressure to release an
upgrade.

Click to expand...

It should be clear that these answers have no significance. Canon updates its cameras largely on a schedule. The 5D has not been upgraded because its three years are not up. There is an argument that the 1D Mark II and the 20D received favored treatment because they received 18 month refreshes. But, most likely the difference is just do to the fact that Canon had spare capacity when those cameras were 18 months old. In any case, most people felt that the 30D did not compare very well with the Nikon D200. The primary reality is that while I have been watching Canon over the last four years, there is zero evidence that competition has anything to do with the timing of new models.

Marty Sedluk said:

They have all of the latest technology in all of their other cameras
(except the 5D), even if they could save money by using the same
parts they would not update a camera unless forced to by the
competition. Even if they could save money and make their customers
happy, they refuse, unless forced to do so by the competition.
I think Chuck is a great guy, I am pretty sure that he is just
passing along the attitude of Canon executives. History has shown
that in technology you end up with leaders and followers, Canon has
clearly changed into a follower from a leader. I have no idea why
Canon would change into a self proclaimed and self announced
follower. History has shown that in technology business, life can be
very difficult on the followers. Most technology businesses value
being a leader in the business as one of the most important
strategies, here we have Canon just get up in front of a camera and
tell the world that they have changed into a follower.
About 1 minute 50 seconds into the clip you can hear the most amazing
technology business announcement (to me at least), that Canon will
now be a follower.

Click to expand...

As far as the 5D goes, it is behind other Canon models simply because it is the last model in the rotation to get new technology. You can get full frame with somewhat older technology now at a low price. By September, you will be able to get a 5D upgrade with the newer technology. But you also will be paying more for it.

Well it is relatively obvious that Canon has been a leader over the last 8 years in delivering DSLR's that are more than adequate for the highest quality professional needs. It also seems pretty likely that DSLR's have largely hit a plateau in terms of their core technical characteristics. How Canon does going forward remains to be seen. Most likely they will get their AF problems fixed and remain competitive on the key image quality characteristcs. But how they do on enhanced electronics features remains to be seen. Nikon has been more active pushing features down into lower priced cameras. Plus both Canon and Nikon may have a problem competing with Sony and Samsung on electronic features. But only time will tell. These time filling comments of Chuck Westfall only indicate that Canon does not have any promises to make at the moment beyond some indication that a full frame 1D is coming at some point in the future.

--
David Jacobson
http://www.pbase.com/dnjake

I thought the interview spoke to more of a promising future. We were offering better than the competition then. They did something cool and now we are going to look at that and take the parts that we think consumers will want. And then wow our customers.

I really do think Canon has been in a position where they could R&D ahead of what they were selling and offer small improvements to keep people happy and profit margins high (while developing ahead).

Now thanks to Nikon and Sony (assuming they do push out all that they have promised)(full frame Sony)(and assumable a D3x with the sony chip), we can get Canon to offer a better camera and or a better price than they would of been forced to offer in the otherwise.

I would be surprised if Canon does not put out some new lenses this spring/summer fall. They have them just need to tweak and wait for the right moment.

We could see an update to the 1DIII sooner than if Nikon had not done a great job on the D3.

We might see the price come down on the 1Ds line if Nikon and Sony get there cameras out soon.

We will get more lenses (b/c the competition is moving).

I pray we will get updated super teles in the next few years (no need to R&D with Nikon so far behind)(now they caught up (possibly passed)(lighter weight)) so Canon should push forward. Possibly some new developments with the recently silent DO technology. (I have been praying for a DO 200-400/4.0, DO 500/4.0, DO 300/400 2.8, and a DO 100-400/5.6).

All of these are possible because of competition. As Chuck said why do more than the times call for. Competition is what changes the times to demand more of a company.

We now have competition.

We also have tools that do great work now.

Just imagine what we might have in a few years with this added push to get better.

The interview does not suggest that Canon will follow it more says just wait for our reaction.

I pray that we get a good game of leap frog going here.

10fps 10MP 1.3
hah 9fps 12MP (11fps 5MP) 1.0
hah hah 10fps 16MP 1.0 (could it be?)

400/2.8 IS
hah 400/2.8 VR (lighter weight (1.6lbs))
hah hah DO 400/2.8 IS (much lighter and shorter) (could it be?)

Only time will tell but I can't see Canon rolling over because of 1 great camera 1 ok camera and some good lens' (mostly catch up).

--
--
Dave M. Shumway
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
http://www.DaveShumway.net
http://www.ShumwayPhotography.com

He is not talking about gear, he is talking about his interpretation of what someone in Canon marketing said, about his perception that Canon's business strategy is not up to scratch.

DerekSurfs said:

Well,

This a gear forum and he is talking about Canon 'gear' along with his
experiences and opinions of this gear. So no need to chastise him.
I really don't visit as much here anymore because I enjoy forum which
are about taking 'pictures.' But just remember the audience and the
intent of the forum you are in.

On the other hand if you are saying this because you disagree with
his analysis of Canon becoming a fllower then say so.

Click to expand...

It's not an analysis, just an opinion

no text

I don't normally chip-in on this sort of thread a but I think the OP is missing the point of the what the interviewee was saying - it's like a on a running track the leader will only run fast enough to beat the second place runner; why expend any more energy than needed? That doesn't mean becoming a follower, it just means you apply the gas in the appropriate place.

The body language on the video may tell a a different story (i.e Canon have been rattled by Nikon of late) and the net effect is that they have to apply the gas and that is where we all win. To be too far ahead, as some may argue Canon were, is not good for investors in Canon gear and if you're unhappy now then now you have a place to run - Nikon, because they applied more gas.

As for the comment in the thread about Sony and their full frame adventure, that is a fairly common marketing tactic; if you don't have the goods today you promise what will come tomorrow. Canon/Nikon have each other to protect against and for companies with the goods today then secrecy is better for them despite how it annoys us!