450D might attract disappointed Nikon fans........

Nikon133 · Jan 30, 2008

People were saying that when 400D replaced 350D... yet 400D was best-seller, even if it was relatively small evolution of 350D.

If D60 is "created" as replacement for D40x (and it does make more sense having D40, D60 and D80 in lineup) then it will be purchased by anyone who was/is/will be planning to get D40x. It is definitely not an upgrade path, but more like facelift model. With appropriate price, it will sell.

The way I see it, people already having D40/D40x are not due to upgrade yet anyway, and once they are they'll be more into D80 replacement or - if they are lucky enough - D300.

For first time DSLR buyers, it will be good camera - again, if the price is right; after all, 400D did oversell D80 even if D80 was more feature rich while providing comparable IQ.

Clear Blue Sky said:
well I am one of those moving from film SLRs to digital. I have no
lenses so no brand alliance. I was very keen on the D80 but was
waiting for the D60. So I am hugely disappointed. The 450D totally
blows away the D60 on specs. We shall see about IQ. Then there is the
K200D.

The D60 will be a very tough sell for Nikon.

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Nikon133 · Jan 30, 2008

You are right, but there are situations when it is really hard to beat one convenient lens. I was crying out loud for something like 18 - 200 when I was in Prague last year, wandering around old town and shooting architecture. Each building required decent wide for capturing it whole, and strong zoom for closing in interesting details, ornaments, gargoyles, statues... swapping glass twice for every building would be real overkill, having 2 bodies is out of my budget for now and I'm not sure I'd enjoy carrying 2 bodies anyway... I did carry 2 lenses with me, but ended up shooting with 18-70 most of the time.

That was a situation when I would definitely forgive all the downsides of 18 - 200 glass...

Hank3152 said:
If you buy one of the earlier Canon Rebels avoid the kit lens and buy
the body only. The XSi has the newest version of the 18-55 with IS,
it's been redesigned as well, and is a great value for it's
performance.
The 18-200 Nikon lens is a decent lens for an all-in-one but it's
still not without issues as most that have a wide range do. It's a
matter of convenience at the expense of quality so you're actually
better getting 2 lenses that span that focal length.

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Hank

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Nikon133 · Jan 30, 2008

But I think some people are forgetting Nikon has 3 entry level bodies (or 4 now..?) compared to Canon's single entry level body.

I didn't expect D60 will be better (features wise) than Canon's new entry level. I do expect replacement for D80 will be. That way, 450D will be positioned between D60 and "D90" (or whatever), not much different than 400D was between D40 and D80. And Nikon will still have another, bargain level body bellow anything else (presuming D40 will stay in production).

Hocus Pocus said:
Oh yeah, the grumbling has already started, and some folks has said
they'd seriously consider the EOS 450D in light of the weak
improvements of the Nikon D60 over the D40x.

Which is plausible since D40x/D60 users (or considering it) aren't
likely to have a large existing investment in lenses or knowledge of
a particular camera system. Which makes thoughts of switching to
something else easier.

IMO, the Nikon D60 is essentially a rebadged D40x. The joke goes that
the D40x product line shut down a while ago so they could wait for
new 'D60' labels to be manufactured.

Nikon really did let down folks who were expecting much more than
essentially a name badge change.

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cayshi · Jan 30, 2008

Taikonaut said:
Many things side the most dissappointing is the D60 has no 14 bits RAW.

Why would user in this price range use RAW. Many of them who are buying first DSLR in this range even don't know what RAW is... So?

jadlh · Jan 30, 2008

I am coming over from the Nikon forum as well, I was waiting for the D90 not the D60 and am very very dissapointed as I am that there is no full frame Nikon.

Today I was told that it would be within two weeks and the 450D will be on the shelf. I don't have a compliment of Nikon lenses so switching will depend on the IQ of this new camera.

I like the weight and size of the 450, almost half of the D80, great for day packing/hikes. Also hoping that a underwater housing may be produced for it as I still am shooting an underwater SLR(pentax film).

I have my idea on lenses, 17-70, 100-300, 10-20, purchased in that order not together.

Waiting.

packy · Jan 31, 2008

ohyva said:
The almost only thing a John Dow can understand when getting his
first dSLR are the pixel count and price. The rest comes important
when he learns a bit more of his new camera - if he ever learn to use
than in any other way than full automated "high end P&S".

I agree. This is where Nikon has got it wrong. If Canon eventually comes in a round the same price point, then John Dow will more than likely choose Canon because of the higher pixel count. Nikon already knows this or else it wouldn't have backed tracked with the D40x knowing that the D40 was getting a slaughtering by the 400D. In hindsight, it was a very brave and rewarding move for Nikon.

And I don't know why there is a hullaballoo in the Nikon forum over the D60. If you are a D40 owner and need an upgrade because your skills or wants have broadened, then you don't upgrade to another entry level dslr. You upgrade to a semi-pro model like a D80. Likewise, even though the 450D has more to offer than the 400D, but if you are gone beyond a 400D in skills and wants, then maybe the upgrade should be a 40D and not another entry level camera.

*****************************************
Packy

packy · Jan 31, 2008

Taikonaut said:
packy said:

Progress? Excellent features? Maybe for Canon users but not so much
for other brand users. Most of the stuff on the 450D have been around
a while on other older brands like spot metering and dust removal.
The 3 point AF is good enough for most applications while the
liveview is not perfected yet and is excruiatingly slow to the point
of being useless unless you are shooting static objects or maybe for
focusing in macro. It works nowhere like on a P&S.

Click to expand...

Unlike the D300, the 40D live view is much better than Nikon and I
find it very useful as I am sure the 450D will be.

You have experience in using both? I can't speak for the 40D as I have used it only for a few test shots in a store. While I didn't see "much better" differences over the D300 initially, to put this in stone would be wrong of me having only done a few test shots with the 40D.

But I have used the D300's live view more extensivley and it is very good for what it does and is crystal sharp for macros. So,..... "much better" depends on what you use it for. Canon's LCD is not as sharp as the D300 and sharpness is critical for macros. And I guess by the way you speak that the Canon would be better in other areas.

But you missed my point I think. Both of them are nowhere close to a P&S. If any P&Ser gets suckered into the 450D in expecting live view to work like his own P&S, then he will be in for one hell of a dissapointment and instead of it being a helpful thing, it could have more of a damaging effect on Canon if anything untill such time it is perfected properly and with a tilt screen. Then you see P&Sers jumping ship.

--
*****************************************
Packy

gail · Jan 31, 2008

Hank3152 said:
The 18-200 Nikon lens is a decent lens for an all-in-one but it's
still not without issues as most that have a wide range do.

I thought if I move to a dslr they would be near perfect. ;-)

I suppose you're talking about lens distortion at wide angle?

The new Sigma 18-125mm sounds interesting.

--
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My digital camera BLOGs: Fuji F20; Pany FZ18 & TZ3; Canon S2, SD700 & A570; Nikon 5400
http://www.digicamhelp.com/camera-logs/index.php

gail · Jan 31, 2008

Medic Laviña said:
In-camera IS/VR

May I ask why you have a preference for in camera image stabilization?

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My digital camera BLOGs: Fuji F20; Pany FZ18 & TZ3; Canon S2, SD700 & A570; Nikon 5400
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Hank3152 · Jan 31, 2008

gail said:
Hank3152 said:

The 18-200 Nikon lens is a decent lens for an all-in-one but it's
still not without issues as most that have a wide range do.

Click to expand...

http://www.photozone.de/Reviews/Nikkor%20/%20Nikon%20Lens%20Tests/46-nikon--nikkor-aps-c/242-nikkor-af-s-18-200mm-f35-56-g-if-ed-vr-ii-dx-review--test-report

Member said:
I thought if I move to a dslr they would be near perfect. ;-)

I suppose you're talking about lens distortion at wide angle?

The new Sigma 18-125mm sounds interesting.

Do they they make one for Nikon? Here's the Canon mount........

http://www.photozone.de/Reviews/Canon%20EOS%20Lens%20Tests/45-canon-eos-aps-c/319-sigma-af-18-125mm-f35-56-dc-test-report--review

Member said:
--
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My digital camera BLOGs: Fuji F20; Pany FZ18 & TZ3; Canon S2, SD700 &
A570; Nikon 5400
http://www.digicamhelp.com/camera-logs/index.php

--
Regards,
Hank

gail · Jan 31, 2008

Hank3152 said:
Do they they make one for Nikon? Here's the Canon mount........

http://www.photozone.de/Reviews/Canon%20EOS%20Lens%20Tests/45-canon-eos-aps-c/319-sigma-af-18-125mm-f35-56-dc-test-report--review

Is that the same one announced recently?

Sigma AF 18-125mm f/3.5-5.6 DC

vs.

Sigma 18-125mm f/3.8-5.6 DC OS HSM:

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0801/08013107sigma18125.asp

I'm still not familiar with all the different designations. I WILL definitely want image stabilization, whether it's in a lens or the camera.

I want to get all new stuff; I haven't use a SLR in almost six years and when my Oly OM2n went kaput, the rest of the system including lenses were all traded in; so I have no old lenses.

--
gail ~ http://www.pbase.com/gailb

My digital camera BLOGs: Fuji F20; Pany FZ18 & TZ3; Canon S2, SD700 & A570; Nikon 5400
http://www.digicamhelp.com/camera-logs/index.php

gail · Jan 31, 2008

ohyva said:
The almost only thing a John Dow can understand when getting his
first dSLR are the pixel count and price.

Are you sure about that??!!

I consider myself quite knowledgeable about compact and prosumer digital cameras. I've owned three slrs in the past. But I know very little about dslrs and have just begun my journey to see if I'm going to buy my first one this year.

I bet there are lots of others like me...and we know a thing or two about pixel count and price. ;-)

--
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My digital camera BLOGs: Fuji F20; Pany FZ18 & TZ3; Canon S2, SD700 & A570; Nikon 5400
http://www.digicamhelp.com/camera-logs/index.php

ohyva · Jan 31, 2008

gail said:
ohyva said:

The almost only thing a John Dow can understand when getting his
first dSLR are the pixel count and price.

Click to expand...

Are you sure about that??!!

Yes.

Member said:
I consider myself quite knowledgeable about compact and prosumer
digital cameras. I've owned three slrs in the past. But I know very
little about dslrs and have just begun my journey to see if I'm going
to buy my first one this year.

I bet there are lots of others like me...and we know a thing or two
about pixel count and price. ;-)

--
gail ~ http://www.pbase.com/gailb
My digital camera BLOGs: Fuji F20; Pany FZ18 & TZ3; Canon S2, SD700 &
A570; Nikon 5400
http://www.digicamhelp.com/camera-logs/index.php

packy · Feb 1, 2008

gail said:
ohyva said:

The almost only thing a John Dow can understand when getting his
first dSLR are the pixel count and price.

Click to expand...

Are you sure about that??!!

Yes. If the large percentage of people were as tuned in like you Gail, then Nikon wouldn't have to bother to release the D40x knowing that people like you would know that there wouldn't not be a dramatic increase (if any at all) in IQ between the 6mp & 10mp sensors.

And that was the only real change from the D40 to the D40X all in a space of four months was bumping it up to 10mp. Why? It was a well known fact that the D40x was released because just after the 6mp D40 came along, the 10mp 400D appeared which threatened to put a BIG dent in their entry level sales. They quickly (well, within four months) rectified this with the D40x.

Also, if the vast majority was tuned in like you and I are, how come one of the best compacts (F10-31) are now history? Everyone knows all the other compacts that came after those are well behind them in IQ. But Fuji had to satisfy the John Dows there too and not the Gails and Packy's of this world, i'm afraid. The DSLR world hasn't escaped this trend too, only difference is that it hasn't effected IQ just yet but they are nearly to the wire now.

*****************************************
Packy

NowHearThis · Feb 1, 2008

One of the other revewers said:
Member said:

The 18-200 Nikon lens is a decent lens for an all-in-one but it's
still not without issues as most that have a wide range do.

Click to expand...

Which is true, it's still an amazing lens, however. The VR in it is second to none. I've done some shooting with that lens and I can hold it steady at 1/6 sec at 200mm. There is no other 200mm lens I can say that about. The conveniencefactor is huge. And the lens is very sharp upto 150mm, (200mm is slightly soft at the extreme end of the apertures (f/5.6, f/32), but it would be great for portraits.) For ~$750 it's a great value too, the least expensive Canon duo (new 18-55 and 55-250 IS exceptioned) with stabilization in the lenses, will still run you over a $1000 for both, and the combined weight will be alot more. The Sigma 18-200 is very good, like I mentioned a few posts back, but,... I like the forward postion of the zoom ring and the build of the Nikon better.

gail said:
Is that the same one announced recently?

Sigma AF 18-125mm f/3.5-5.6 DC

vs.

Sigma 18-125mm f/3.8-5.6 DC OS HSM:

Then non "OS" version is no longer on the "Lenses" section of Sigma's website (www.sigma-photo.com). I'd assume the OS is an upgrade and replacement to the old lens.

If image quality is about equal, which Iexpect it to be, I'd choose the Sigma 18-200mm OS over the Sigma 18-125mm OS. I think you'll only be looking at about $100 - $150 in the difference in the prices between the lenses.

Member said:
I'm still not familiar with all the different designations. I WILL
definitely want image stabilization, whether it's in a lens or the
camera.

This you might know, so I appologize in advance.... the "DC" designation in Sigma lenses means the lens is designed to fit on cameras that have the APS sized sensor (Canon XSi, Nikon D40, Pentax K10D, etc). "DG" means it has multi-coatings on the glass like the DC lenses, but will also work on film cameras or digitals with a 35mm sized sensor. (Sigma does usually have compatibility charts on their website if you're not sure which lens will work on the camera you're considering.)

Canon is releasing a 55-250mm IS lens, and the 18-55 IS will be available on the XSi. I like the range of their new zoom lens, but I'd wait to see some lens reviews on it here at dpreview as well as a lens test from Popular Photography and other photo magazines. Canon's older 55-200mm (non IS lens) was rather unimpressive, so I'm skeptical about the new improved one.

I have the Nikon 18-55mm (not the VR) and the Nikon 55-200mm VR and love both of them, I'd trade them in a second for a Nikon 18-200mm VR, if I could, but they do what I need perfectly. They're both sharp and focus quick. The 55-200mm is very sharp at 200mm at all but the smallest apertures. I'm thinking of upgrading atleast my 18-55mm lens atleast, probably to the New Nikon 16-85mm VR. It looks like it has some very good glass in there which is always important.

Just because I can't resist throwing one more thing out there... The new Pentax K20D and 60-250mm f/4 lens looks quite tempting too. (you could pick up the 16-50mm f/2.8, and one of their awesome "pancake" lenses 40mm or 70mm and you'd have one sweet setup, you probably wouldn't have to upgrade anything for many years.)

Member said:
--
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My digital camera BLOGs: Fuji F20; Pany FZ18 & TZ3; Canon S2, SD700 &
A570; Nikon 5400
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gail · Feb 3, 2008

NowHearThis said:
One last thing, get an external flash too, it makes all the
difference taking nice people shots outdo

I'm tossing between the new Nikon and Canon. Which one wins in my mind changes each day.

I know it may sound silly but one of the deciding factors for me will be the external flash. I'm not a pro so don't have the need for a large, full featured flash. I really don't care about name brand, though I'd like a good flash that is fully compatible with the camera.

I do want bounce capabilities and want the flash to be small and lightweight. I really like the size and weight of the Nikon SB-400 Speedlight. I don't see that Canon has the equivalent. Their smallest, lightest one doesn't have bounce capabilities. If I decide to get the Canon, are their other brands that will work well with a Canon that are about the size and weight of the SB 400.

Thanks again!

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My digital camera BLOGs: Fuji F20; Pany FZ18 & TZ3; Canon S2, SD700 & A570; Nikon 5400
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dreamwarrior · Feb 3, 2008

Canon's 55-250mm IS isn't that impressive. But it's pretty cheap at $300.

I'd prefer the Sigma 18-125mm OS

gail · Feb 3, 2008

Thank you.

So you have any suggestions for a small external flash with a bounce head, should I decide to get the Canon?

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My digital camera BLOGs: Fuji F20; Pany FZ18 & TZ3; Canon S2, SD700 & A570; Nikon 5400
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Hank3152 · Feb 3, 2008

Gail,
Here is a very comprehensive article in 3 parts that may help.......
http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/index.html
--
Regards,
Hank

NowHearThis · Feb 4, 2008

gail said:
NowHearThis said:

One last thing, get an external flash too, it makes all the
difference taking nice people shots outdo

Click to expand...

I'm tossing between the new Nikon and Canon. Which one wins in my
mind changes each day.

It might get harder or easier depending on how well or not the new XSi and D60 perform.

Member said:
I know it may sound silly but one of the deciding factors for me will
be the external flash. I'm not a pro so don't have the need for a
large, full featured flash. I really don't care about name brand,
though I'd like a good flash that is fully compatible with the camera.

I do want bounce capabilities and want the flash to be small and
lightweight. I really like the size and weight of the Nikon SB-400
Speedlight. I don't see that Canon has the equivalent. Their
smallest, lightest one doesn't have bounce capabilities. If I decide
to get the Canon, are their other brands that will work well with a
Canon that are about the size and weight of the SB 400.

There is really nothing close to the size and weight of the Nikon SB-400, it's reallly powerful for it's size. It's the best investment I've make so far as camera accessories go. If you end up buying Canon, (Nikonians would just say "converting over to the dark side") you might find cheaper bounce flashes than the 430EX, but they won't be any smaller. Unfortunately.

Member said:
Thanks again!

My pleasure.

Member said:
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My digital camera BLOGs: Fuji F20; Pany FZ18 & TZ3; Canon S2, SD700 &
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450D might attract disappointed Nikon fans........

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