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A little credit to the Olympus e-330 please?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Raist3d
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Franka T.L. said:
Sure we should attribute Oly for their prior effort, but for real the
way E-330 doing things is sort of like - throw every possible mean in
there and see how it work out - type of engineering.
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How so?
Franka T.L. said:
Liveview, as many had stated is fairly useful , but also fairly
limiting.
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Oh liveview is not the end all be all, certainly. It's just another tool.
Franka T.L. said:
I go for a DSLR for want of its camera side performance as
well as the media side. With liveview, what really limits the feature
is how it can integrate with other aspect of camera operation without
hampering them. The need for AF / Exposure / Metering and most of all
shutter lag is key to the integration.
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But this is what the live view mode A of the e-330 addressed... (?!)
Franka T.L. said:
As I see it, Oly being the pioneer on this front is now solely
lacking. Panasonic and Canon with the L10 & 450D offer some form of
compromise with the Contrast detection AF. Sony now made a more
mature implememtaion of liveview mode A. What we need is some more.
Not that these current generation Liveview are not of any good. Even
the liveview on E-330 / L1 is of some use. But equally we must not
disregard the hassel and limitation it offers. In the end, how to
integrate this feature together with other means ( OVF, EVF etc ... )
into a single entity would be some thing to work on for DSLR Mfr in
the coming future for sure.
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I don't understand.. given the fact the e-330 provided of mode B which apparently is something none of the new Sony live views do and have their own advantages...
Franka T.L. said:
--
  • Franka -
Click to expand...
--
Raist3d (Photog. Student & Tools/Systems/Gui Games Developer)
Andreas Feininger (1906-1999) 'Photographers — idiots, of which there are
so many — say, “Oh, if only I had a Nikon or a Leica, I could make great
photographs.” That’s the dumbest thing I ever heard in my life. It’s
nothing but a matter of seeing, and thinking, and interest. That’s what
makes a good photograph.'
 
Did you design the e-330 ?
Raist3d said:
Hey just saw the news. Sony introduces the all revolutionary- unlike
other live views, "quick live view." Kudos Sony. The first time right?

Oh wait. What about the Olympus e-330 nearly two years ago? How about
a little credit to that dpreview? Back then it was a "problem looking
for a solution" and now it has become a good solution? How come?

Not that I think it's bad. I am glad Sony is doing this and I am glad
they seemed to have improved on it. Competition is good and I am
happy to see Sony is willing to go with this design. Just a bit of
credit, that's all. Just because it's the right thing to do.

On my end since I own 4/3rd glass I would love if Olympus continued
the e-330 line, but if I had nothing I would be taking a very close
look to these Sony's. For street life, articulated quick live view
is the cat's meow.

--
Raist3d (Photog. Student & Tools/Systems/Gui Games Developer)
Andreas Feininger (1906-1999) 'Photographers — idiots, of which
there are
so many — say, “Oh, if only I had a Nikon or a Leica, I could make great
photographs.” That’s the dumbest thing I ever heard in my life. It’s
nothing but a matter of seeing, and thinking, and interest. That’s what
makes a good photograph.'
Click to expand...
 
Franka T.L. said:
As I see it, Oly being the pioneer on this front is now solely
lacking. Panasonic and Canon with the L10 & 450D offer some form of
compromise with the Contrast detection AF. Sony now made a more
mature implememtaion of liveview mode A. What we need is some more.
Click to expand...
That about says it all.
 
tweedle said:
Franka T.L. said:
As I see it, Oly being the pioneer on this front is now solely
lacking. Panasonic and Canon with the L10 & 450D offer some form of
compromise with the Contrast detection AF. Sony now made a more
mature implememtaion of liveview mode A. What we need is some more.
Click to expand...
That about says it all.
Click to expand...
This isn't about says it all. This is not even my original point and doesn't take into account (or ignores) real world live view mode B benefits.

--
Raist3d (Photog. Student & Tools/Systems/Gui Games Developer)
Andreas Feininger (1906-1999) 'Photographers — idiots, of which there are
so many — say, “Oh, if only I had a Nikon or a Leica, I could make great
photographs.” That’s the dumbest thing I ever heard in my life. It’s
nothing but a matter of seeing, and thinking, and interest. That’s what
makes a good photograph.'
 
phototext said:
Did you design the e-330 ?
Click to expand...
So?

--
Raist3d (Photog. Student & Tools/Systems/Gui Games Developer)
Andreas Feininger (1906-1999) 'Photographers — idiots, of which there are
so many — say, “Oh, if only I had a Nikon or a Leica, I could make great
photographs.” That’s the dumbest thing I ever heard in my life. It’s
nothing but a matter of seeing, and thinking, and interest. That’s what
makes a good photograph.'
 
Two Truths said:
A classic case of somebody who just can't stand to see anyone get the
credit beyond Olympus. This is hilarious - but its par for the course.
Click to expand...
Benn if anything has credited many brands with many things.
Two Truths said:
--
Stuart / the Two Truths
http://www.flickr.com/photos/two_truths/
http://two-truths.deviantart.com/gallery/
Click to expand...
--
Raist3d (Photog. Student & Tools/Systems/Gui Games Developer)
Andreas Feininger (1906-1999) 'Photographers — idiots, of which there are
so many — say, “Oh, if only I had a Nikon or a Leica, I could make great
photographs.” That’s the dumbest thing I ever heard in my life. It’s
nothing but a matter of seeing, and thinking, and interest. That’s what
makes a good photograph.'
 
Raist3d said:
phototext said:
Did you design the e-330 ?
Click to expand...
So?
Click to expand...
What phototext might have been hinting here, raist3d, is that somehow you seem to identify very strongly with the E330's live view implementation - being almost as sensitive about it as if your personal identity was in some way at the centre of this exchange of technical views...

That camera must be very dear to you, I guess.
 
tweedle said:
Raist3d said:
phototext said:
Did you design the e-330 ?
Click to expand...
So?
Click to expand...
What phototext might have been hinting here, raist3d, is that somehow
you seem to identify very strongly with the E330's live view
implementation - being almost as sensitive about it as if your
personal identity was in some way at the centre of this exchange of
technical views...
Click to expand...
Hmm not really. If that was the case, I dont' think I would have said I was very happy to see what Sony was doing (I think this is like the 4th time I mention this?)
tweedle said:
That camera must be very dear to you, I guess.
Click to expand...
As a tool for photography, it's a good tool no doubt.

I think people very often confuse a desire of justice or truth for "personal identification with a brand." Funny that considering I own three brands and I have shot with all three.

Reminds me of another workplace in the past where some people thought I was a "SEGA fanboy" because I liked the Dreamcast, but they never knew that I never liked pretty much anything SEGA (console wise, not their games) over their competition until that point.

;-)

--
Raist3d (Photog. Student & Tools/Systems/Gui Games Developer)
Andreas Feininger (1906-1999) 'Photographers — idiots, of which there are
so many — say, “Oh, if only I had a Nikon or a Leica, I could make great
photographs.” That’s the dumbest thing I ever heard in my life. It’s
nothing but a matter of seeing, and thinking, and interest. That’s what
makes a good photograph.'
 
Raist3d said:
tweedle said:
That camera must be very dear to you, I guess.
Click to expand...
As a tool for photography, it's a good tool no doubt.

I think people very often confuse a desire of justice or truth for
"personal identification with a brand."
Click to expand...
Could it be that justice is often sought for with particular vigor on issues of strong personal identification?

Anyway, a dear poster in another forum just reminded me that web forums are often 'anger traps', and I think neither of us would really like to go there.

All said from me, I think :)
 
Sony's approach has limitations just as Oly's did with the e330. But Dpreview will always flog Olympus if given have a chance and overlook the same for the competition.
BJL said:
Raist3d said:
What about the Olympus e-330 nearly two years ago?
Click to expand...
One difference from the E-330: the new A3x0 models have only "mode
A", and so no zoom preview on the LCD. Also, the approach used seems
inherently limited to using a penta-mirror VF of rather low
magnification, so it is clear why a camera like the E-3 does not use
this approach.

So, Sony's approach is probably good for its stated goal of making
entry-level DSLR usage more like digicam usage, but far less usable
to people like me who want LiveView for accurate manual focus,
accurate live histogram, accurate DOF preview, and want a good,
uncompromised optical VF too.

LiveView off the "taking" sensor offers the purest WYSIWYG preview.
Click to expand...
 
tweedle said:
Raist3d said:
tweedle said:
That camera must be very dear to you, I guess.
Click to expand...
As a tool for photography, it's a good tool no doubt.

I think people very often confuse a desire of justice or truth for
"personal identification with a brand."
Click to expand...
Could it be that justice is often sought for with particular vigor on
issues of strong personal identification?
Click to expand...
You continue to attempt to put a special "personal" identification between what I said and a brand. It's nothing more than what I said. If that's the case for you then, that's for you, but I already spoke for myself. Now if what you are suggesting is "personal identification with justifice & truth" that's a different suggestion altogether and perhaps, yes, I have a strong desire or identification with truth and justice, but I want to make clear brands don't enter in the equation here.
tweedle said:
Anyway, a dear poster in another forum just reminded me that web
forums are often 'anger traps', and I think neither of us would
really like to go there.

All said from me, I think :)
Click to expand...
So you are saying that web forums are often anger traps for you?

--
Raist3d (Photog. Student & Tools/Systems/Gui Games Developer)
Andreas Feininger (1906-1999) 'Photographers — idiots, of which there are
so many — say, “Oh, if only I had a Nikon or a Leica, I could make great
photographs.” That’s the dumbest thing I ever heard in my life. It’s
nothing but a matter of seeing, and thinking, and interest. That’s what
makes a good photograph.'
 
outcry when the e-330 came out, about confusing, viewfinder. And how many were pushing for the "best E-3 view finder evar" and "if the E-3 has live view mode A I am not buying it."

Would be interesting to see how they can deal with it in the future.

--
Raist3d (Photog. Student & Tools/Systems/Gui Games Developer)
Andreas Feininger (1906-1999) 'Photographers — idiots, of which there are
so many — say, “Oh, if only I had a Nikon or a Leica, I could make great
photographs.” That’s the dumbest thing I ever heard in my life. It’s
nothing but a matter of seeing, and thinking, and interest. That’s what
makes a good photograph.'
 
Barry Fitzgerald said:
I would agree with that..a mode B covers the other base as such.
On the other hand..E3..to bad they dropped the mode A!
Click to expand...
My guess is that with the E-3, Olympus made a priority of having a very good optical viewfinder, meaning penta-prism not penta-mirror, and with high magnification. So far no-one has worked out how to do that in combination with the secondary sensor style of Live View. In particular, Sony's current approach requires a penta-mirror, and alignment challenges that would probably make accurate 100% coverage very difficult to attain.
Member said:
Oly seem to have lost interest in the LV SLR.
Click to expand...
All current Olympus DSLR models have LiveView, so I suppose you mean that Olympus has lost interest in the "secondary sensor, good AF, lower resolution, inferior OVF" version of live view. Olympus has chosen a "manual focus friendly" version while Sony has taken an "auto-focus friendly" path so far. (A future Sony model with a video capable CMOS sensor could change that.)
 
AlanF said:
AlanF said:
LiveView off the "taking" sensor offers the purest WYSIWYG preview.
Click to expand...
That is true. But the downside is that your main sensor heats up and
gets noisier.
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After 10 minutes of continuous use you can't see or measure the difference in noise with the E-330 according to DPReview.

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/olympuse330/page18.asp
AlanF said:
All the manuals for the main-sensor LV cameras warn that you
shouldn't use it for extended periods.
Click to expand...
Actually they don't give that warning. They say things like extended use may create noise issues. I think the Canon 1D-MIII give a warning but also allows you to override it. In the E-330 manual they say that this may happen with high ISO settings, making no mention of the possibility with low ISO settings. They don't say you shouldn't use it for extended periods of time. I never give it a second thought and I've never had any issue with it.

The whole noisy sensor thing is misunderstood and over-hyped. All cameras will generate internal heat with continuous heat. Most of this heat is from sources other than the sensor. Thinks like running continuous video - even though you aren't using the main sensor - will generate internal heat that could (depending on where the sources of the heat are located) cause noise and/or discolorization issues. Further, heat related noise becomes a bigger factor with longer exposure times and higher ISOs. At lower ISOs and "normal" exposure times, heat related noise is actually pretty rare. I take black bodied cameras into the desert all the time in direct (hot) sunlight and ambient temperatures well above 100 degrees F. You just don't see heat related noise. Why would you? The exposures are short an I'm using high shutter speeds. You are more likely to see heat related noise on a cool night taking time exposures.
--
Jay Turberville
http://www.jayandwanda.com
 
BJL said:
BJL said:
[Olympus recommends that] If you are shooting at HIGH ISO, you let the camera cool down a bit after 5-8 minutes of use.
Click to expand...
Thanks, very interesting! So it seems that it is using high levels of
on-sensor pre-amplification associated with high ISO speeds on an
active CMOS sensor that is a possible heating risk. (Yet the CMOS
sensor of the Sony R1 seemed to handle this?)

I will be careful if I ever do a lot of macro/product/portrait/tripod
photography at high ISO, as opposed to the ISO 100 that I almost
always use in such situations.
Click to expand...
I've never seen the recommendation of limiting the LV B operation to 5-8 minutes (which isn't to say that some Olympus rep didn't say that at some time). LV B will timeout after a few minutes though. But I don't know if that is to save batteries or to minimize heat. The manual says the following, "If B mode is used over a long period [no defintion of what a "long time" is], the temperature of the image pickup device rises causing images with high ISO sensitivity to appear noisy and unevenly colored. Either lower the ISO sensitivity or turn off the camera for some time."

I've looked at a lot of sensor data sheets, and they simply don't draw much power. So it stands to reason that their continued operation doesn't generat that much heat. Small sensor CCDs operate this way all the time (and also have low power consumptions) and don't have issues with prolonged sensor based LCD viewing.

DPReview did a 10 minute test and found no noise change after 10 minutes of continuous LV B operation. And they tested up to ISO 1600. It really isn't much of an issue. In fact, it is almost a non-issue.

--
Jay Turberville
http://www.jayandwanda.com
 
Member said:
All of these hold true to live view mode A of the e-330, except for
the last point. The last point does, however, has its sets of prices
to pay, and he covers some of them in the "cons below"
Click to expand...
As for the final point, you can switch liveview modes on the E-330 without "switching" liveview modes. You simply configure some of the optional buttons differently.

So, you want DoF preview in mode B, just reprogram your DoF button to use liveview B DoF preview. Release it and you are back in LV A. It's a simple toggle. Piece of cake. This means you also get 100% framing verification at the same time when you press your DoF button. You can even do 10x magnification focus check in this mode - though you have to be fairly dexterious to keep the DoF preview button down at the same time.

--
Jay Turberville
http://www.jayandwanda.com
 
Jay Turberville said:
DPReview did a 10 minute test and found no noise change after 10 minutes of continuous LV B operation. And they tested up to ISO 1600. It really isn't much of an issue. In fact, it is almost a non-issue.
Click to expand...
Thanks for those reassuring (even myth-busting) facts. I had expected or hoped that it would not be much of an issue, for reasons like those you mention, but the recommendations and warnings about extended main-sensor Live View usage raised some doubts.

With Live View busting out all over, "high ISO noise after extended live view operation" might soon be part of the DPReview test suite!
 
BJL said:
With Live View busting out all over, "high ISO noise after extended
live view operation" might soon be part of the DPReview test suite!
Click to expand...
well wouldnt that be ironic

--
Riley

I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous
 
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