Please, please, please, those not happy with features of K20D

Lance, very surprised at your outburst as you have now set the local "Blinders On Pentax Fanboys Club" in motion with this thread. I still respect you as you are a fabulous photographer and an excellent asset to the Pentax forum.

I have taken your advice and sold off most of my Pentax equipment as the new camera is not for me. I love my current pentax and only keeping two lenses I use regularly. Might upgrade to a K1D? or whatever it is called eventually as long as they improve AF, but no more Pentax lenses, flash etc...

Best to attract people with the cool features threads instead of tired old threads like this. I know you are mad, but telling people to leave does not help Pentax sales. Pentax is a good but somewhat frustrating company.

Links like below help Pentax sales (Good job Pentax on the videos):

K20D: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZlVEe2y9e4

K200D: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-74vSaL_YY0

palmor said:

I'm not even going to mention which side I fall on (the K20 is the
greatest thing since sliced bread or its a piece of trash that isn't'
worth the material its made out of) but extremists on both sides of
the argument are quite frankly getting annoying.

It blows me away that you either have to be 100% on board with what
Pentax is doing (or just keep your mouth shut) or your expected to
leave the Pentax community(from the "fan boy" point of view)? On the
other side of the coin just because Pentax didn't come out with
exactly what you want that isn't a reason to bash all the people who
like the camera and are happy with it.

It is OK for both sides of the coin to admit that there are good and
bad things with the K20. Its OK to admit that even though your
mostly very happy with it that you'd like to see some of the features
other makes have. It is OK to say that even though it is exactly
what you where looking for that its a step in the right direction and
that even know the most useful features for your shooting style
aren't there, that the ones they did implement will help.

For the most part we don't all know each other.. I don't know anyone
personally on these forums (and I lurk more then post) but we do come
to know each other in a way. I think we have one of, if not the best
forum community around. So it disappoints me to see some of our more
respected members act they way they have. Although I'm replying to
your message lance this isn't really directed at you.. but this
thread did give me the motivation to actually reply to all this
drivel. I don't appreciate people trying to tell me (one way or the
other) what I have to think.

If I choose to stay with Pentax and express any dissatisfaction too
bad.. if I choose to stay because I think the K20 is the perfect
camera and I express those feelings.. too bad. For everyone that
thinks because you have a different opinion your an idiot that
doesn't' deserve to ever take a photo again fill in blank .
--
http://www.pbase.com/palmor

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Let's get one thing straight here, I can't speak for every unhappy Pentaxian, but for me, I don't think anyone here is an idiot for expressing their opinions, good or bad. Here, we call that freedom, and it leaves a sweet taste in my mouth, even if the message is bitter. There may be some idiots here, some may even think I am one of them, but hopefully not for having an opinion. I haven't seen any name calling or personal attacks yet, and hope I don't. If so, I will be the first to flame away at the attacker.

'This is more serious than I thought.....but it is still fun!
http://www.pbase.com/rupertdog Take a look- It's Free!

I have to agree with Lance.

I'm all for disagreement and venting but the wailing and breast beating have gotten to a ridiculous level. You would think the end of the camera world is at hand.

I currently have a DS2 and am quite interested in the K20D if the sensor IQ proves its worth. As for the auto focus issues and the FPS I'll do what I always do, adapt and try and figure out how to make myself a better photographer.

I've managed to get some nice bird/animal shots with my Pentax A400mm 5.6 with manual focus and no shake reduction so I must be doing something right.

Cheers

Graham

Lance you are correct, great post. You can't please everyone all the time. Life is to short.

PS. any folks leaving this great brand I am looking for a Pentax 10-17 cheap since you won't need it anymore with your Cannon or Nikon.

--
Pat from Western Mass. USA

I myself never posted a complaint about K20D, I did post a few questions though do I qualify to the category of bad guys ? As much as I agree with you, Lance, but then if someone posts endless complaints, why do you care and read if you dont like it?

While I would personally follow your advise if that was my situation. Even without being reminded

One should always adjust the tools to the trade one are in.
Tools are not investments to me, they are what I need to get the results i want.

What i find most odd is that we are talking based on specs, very few of us (certainly not me) have had the pleasure to use the new camera, so in reality we do not know how it performs.

An upside to all these complaints is that they give Pentax some idea of what a part of their userbase are looking for. I do not say that I agree nor disagree, but for the users wanting faster AF (better trackability etc. Well the real test will be when they do have a production model in hand and are able to test it.

Fast AF or good predictive AF is not something I would expect from Pentax yet. Splendid IQ is though, along with some very high quality primes and luckily those two requirements seems to be answered.

For Pentax as a brand and when it comes to attracting new users and lets face it, new users are needed to keep Pentax profitable, there might be some valid reason for the complaints.

People that keeps saying that Pentax has crappy AF, might scare off potential buyers from choosing pentax, even though it may only be true for predictive AF and AF in poor lightning conditions.

Sorry about all the ramblings and as said i do agree, personally I would do the exact same thing as you if I were dissatisfied.

A good read Lance.

--
Thomas

Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool
http://www.duplophotography.com/
http://www.my.opera.com/duplo
My pictures categorised by lens used:
http://main.duplophotography.com/f311992052/

Alfisti said:

If this board turned into one big Pentax $ick pulling affair.

Really, it's healthy discussion IMHO and shows folks are keen to stay
with the brand if possible, what wrong with that?

Apart from anything else it's an excellent source of free market
research for the marketing guys.

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You just made the best post in this thread Alfisti. Pentax is probably looking at the reaction and I hope it has thrown cold water in their face. The excuse that most photographers don't shoot sports/action/fast critters with Pentax is untrue until they supply facts. The reason there is not much in the way of action shots is the AF is not that great. It is usable though as I have shot Birds in Flight with a keeper range of rougly 20% with my Bigma. (Considering how slow that lens is, I guess it is not that bad) My fast lenses were higher in % keepers but not much.

The new cameras will sell well to Pentax upgraders, but new people to the brand may be a bit different. Unless they give the cameras away like they did with the K100D and K10D.

The new Canon 450D shoots 3.5FPS up to 6 RAW/63 jpg and is an entry level 12MP camera with live view(contrast detect if you wish). So Pentax is not alone in new cameras and who knows what is next in 2008.

Rupert60 said:

Let's get one thing straight here, I can't speak for every unhappy
Pentaxian, but for me, I don't think anyone here is an idiot for
expressing their opinions, good or bad. Here, we call that freedom,
and it leaves a sweet taste in my mouth, even if the message is
bitter. There may be some idiots here, some may even think I am one
of them, but hopefully not for having an opinion. I haven't seen any
name calling or personal attacks yet, and hope I don't. If so, I will
be the first to flame away at the attacker.

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Hey Rupert,

I think this is what I was trying to say so I agree. Express your opinions but remember that just because yours is different doesn't make it fact.. its an opinion. I'm sorry if you thought my post was directed at you in anyway.. as far as I can tell you've been one of the more level headed posters... saying that you'd like to see additional features but are happy with the ones that came out. But there have been a ton of posts telling people to either leave pentax and shutup or the other way where people have had no good things to say implying that the camera won't be able to take a good picture at all. Everyone is so defensive about their own side that a lot of people can't have a good old fashion healthy discussion about it.

For everyone that doesn't fall into one of these categories my post wasn't directed at you . There has been pockets of good dialog and healthy debate but the longer this goes the more venomous I see this getting.

--
http://www.pbase.com/palmor

palmor said:

palmor said:

Let's get one thing straight here, I can't speak for every unhappy
Pentaxian, but for me, I don't think anyone here is an idiot for
expressing their opinions, good or bad. Here, we call that freedom,
and it leaves a sweet taste in my mouth, even if the message is
bitter. There may be some idiots here, some may even think I am one
of them, but hopefully not for having an opinion. I haven't seen any
name calling or personal attacks yet, and hope I don't. If so, I will
be the first to flame away at the attacker.

Click to expand...

Hey Rupert,
I think this is what I was trying to say.. express your opinions but
remember that just because yours is different doesn't make it fact..
its an opinion. I'm sorry if you thought my post was directed at you
in anyway.. as far as I can tell you've been one of the more level
headed posters... saying that you'd like to see additional features
but are happy with the ones that came out. But there have been a ton
of posts telling people to either leave pentax and shutup or the
other way where people have had no good things to say implying that
the camera won't be able to take a good picture at all. Everyone is
so defensive about their own side that a lot of people can't have a
good old fashion healthy discussion about it.

For everyone that doesn't fall into one of these categories my post
wasn't directed at you . There has been pockets of good dialog and
healthy debate but the longer this goes the more venomous I see this
getting.

--
http://www.pbase.com/palmor

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No, I didn't take your post as personal towards me or I would have advised Festus to knaw your phone lines to shreds! LOL I think we can all give our opinions in a reasonable manor, it is after all the freedom we all love so much that allows it. If you see any ugly personal attacks, let me know, Festus just loves those phone and cable lines!

'This is more serious than I thought.....but it is still fun!
http://www.pbase.com/rupertdog Take a look- It's Free!

Hi Lance

Quite a vitrolic outburst you must be really worked up about somthing.

I take it you sold you FA 28-80 Pz as you classed it as the 'worst lens Pentax ever made', As you abviously wouldn't have come out with your advise re Pentax Gear and then be hypoctritical would you.??

Charlie Self said:

I can understand being not totally overjoyed with certain features,
but those doing the complaining start out by acting as if it ruins
the entire camera for ANY shooting, no matter what, and then go on
and on as if it were a personal insult to them that the camera isn't
perfect for THEIR use. Mention that it's fine for your uses, and they
come back with, "It's all about you."

Click to expand...

Bullseye! LOL.

Not everyone is like this, but these are the one that make my teeth hurt.

Tim

gazonk said:

The whiners are the most loyal customers - they're the one that
really don't want to change brands, they just want their chosen brand
to not only be the best, but have all the best features of the
competition

Click to expand...

I fail to see anything wrong whatsoever with this viewpoint. There is nothing wrong in wanting Pentax to produce better cameras - and certainly in being able to match the specs of the competitions models that directly go head to head for comparison.

jeffster_ca said:

Links like below help Pentax sales (Good job Pentax on the videos):

K20D: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZlVEe2y9e4

K200D: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-74vSaL_YY0

Click to expand...

Thanks for the links. I hadn't seen them before.

There's one revolutionary thing about the K20D besides the sensor itself... correct me if I'm wrong, but it's the first DSLR where the manufacturer is actually encouraging people to clean the sensor themselves. lol. Reinforcing Pentax's reputation as a photographer's camera.

The K20D is on my wish list.

Tim

Agreed, totally!
I had my doubts with the DS
I had my doubts with the K10
I have my doubts about the K20

BUT in all that I never banged on about it, they were my choice; and after accepting the minor limitations, which I absorbed well after the reviews and forum bashings were over, I bought them.

For some it's like complaining about a pain in the ars@ while still sitting on the cactus.

I have no doubt it will be a competent piece of kit, but I will do as I did before. Wait until the shouting stops, and see what it can really do in the right hands.
--
Dave P

• If you believe everything you read, better not to read -
  • Japanese Proverb - -

awaldram said:

Hi Lance

Quite a vitrolic outburst you must be really worked up about somthing.

I take it you sold you FA 28-80 Pz as you classed it as the 'worst
lens Pentax ever made', As you abviously wouldn't have come out with
your advise re Pentax Gear and then be hypoctritical would you.??

Click to expand...

Give me a shot of that Lance medicine. If I could shoot half as good as Lance I wouldn't have time to even visit this forum, I would be out there shooting all the time. We might not agree on everything, but if anyone has a right to his opinion, it is one of the best shooters here, and that is Lance for sure. For you........try castor oil, they say it really cleans you out.

'This is more serious than I thought.....but it is still fun!
http://www.pbase.com/rupertdog Take a look- It's Free!

to know that the other Forums never have any conflict over their equipment? Never a cross word, or complaint? Totally happy with all their gear, all the time? I've seen about every camera made beat to a pulp at one time or another, so what's new?
--
'This is more serious than I thought.....but it is still fun!
http://www.pbase.com/rupertdog Take a look- It's Free!

I am happy with my Pentax, although I've had a few issues along the way.

I've been told here that I should switch. I, of course, ignored the ignorance of those comments and the people who made them.

I feel sufficiently secure with my equipment to be able to read criticism of Pentax. If you are that insecure, do us a favor and don't leave the comfort of your house.

Tom
--
K100D, DA 16-45, DA 14, DA 40, DA 50-200, and others

insulglass said:

I fail to see anything wrong whatsoever with this viewpoint. There
is nothing wrong in wanting Pentax to produce better cameras - and
certainly in being able to match the specs of the competitions models
that directly go head to head for comparison.

Click to expand...

I didn't actually say there was anything wrong with it...

But there are several ways of articulating your wishes. I have a long experience with product development and talking directly to customers, and the real "whiners", while also loyal customers, don't get as many of their wishes fulfilled as those that are more constructive in their critique, simply because it's difficult to get real, constructive suggestions out of the "whiners".

It seems that Pentax has had a diversified team of beta testers for their product, so I'm sure they're very aware of the wish for more fps and faster af. But if the frequency of complaints here on the forum is any measure of anything, think of all the VPN complaints, and all the people complaining about K10D high-ISO performance - isn't it possible that Pentax actually made the right priority by getting out their own sensor which (apparently) fixed these problems first?

Wildlife photographers may be disappointed that they didn't get higher fps. But they did get better high-ISO IQ, and they did get weather-sealed long primes. Maybe the wildlife photographers that Pentax talked to agreed with Pentax prioritizing as they did?

Anyway, it seems that the new sensor is such a leap ahead, that refining the sensor technology won't cost Pentax too much development costs in the year to come. So I would be very surprised if they're not working on AF and higher FPS right now.
--
Espen

Hi Lance, with all the respect I have for you, I must disagree with you here.

First of all, let me say that I'm part of the "unhappy crowd about not changing the AF and FPS".

But I think I have the right to hope that Pentax will take care of these issues in the future.

I'm very happy that Pentax developed their own sensor. I'm also 100% happy with them going the APS way and managing to achieve good high ISO results (I'm sure tests will confirm that).

Many will say: if you want real fast af, why did you choose Pentax ?
Let me tell you why I chose it and why I don't want to change brand:

When I was on the market for a first DSLR in 2006, I found that the k10d was everything I needed:
-weatherproof
-built-in stabilisator
-10 mp
-great IQ
-autofocus was said to be fast and accurate
-reading this forum, I discovered all the great primes in the Pentax system.

-wireless flash was also extremely important in my decision (I use it every week)

13 months later, I'm very satisfied with my k10. The only thing that does not amaze me is the autofocus: as a father of two young children, I don't use my k10d only for art photo but also as a snapshot tool to photograph my children playing.

-kids running and playing soccer: bad results (my son is walking at 11 and a half months and the autofocus cannot follow him...)

-My daughter doing sliding on the snow at 5 mph: impossible to have 3 shots in perfect focus

-three years old birthday of my daughter: want to take pictures of her in ambiant light (with flash): autofocus hunts while my syster's c*non 400d takes shots after shots in green mode...

Because I'm unhappy of that, I should sell everything and switch to Canikon ?
Noooo way:

D300 has everything I'm hoping for for a DSLR except for built-in image stabilisator and that is a must for me. FA50 and 35, Sigma 70/2.8 macro, the upcoming DA*300/4 at the price it will be are impossible to be found in other system (because they are "stabilised" !)
C*non 40d: same things as the D300 plus no wireless flash and no weathersealing.

So ?

Like many, I'm hoping that Pentax will have a DSLR in the market sooner than later that competes with the others in term of AF (and FPS but that is not so important for me).

Frankly, I did not have high hopes that the k20d would be such a change from the k10d because of the uncertainty about Pentax in 2007 (Hoya merger etc). Now I just hope that they have listen to the unhappy crowd ( which seem to form a significant amount of people) and plan to work on the AF in the next bodies.

This is my first post about my appreciation of the k20d and will be my last (I almost swear). Now I want to be amazed by this intriguing sensor that will be on my next DSLR The K30d (or K1D ?) that will have a great AF, 5FPS, 1/250 sync and HDMi connection...

--
Jocelyn

--
Kent in Ok

Well ladies and gentlemen looks like Pentax users can do a good job of slashing each othe to bits. The final point will be made by about July when we see if the K20D sells as good as the K10 did. Hope I'm wrong but I don't think so. I've noticed that several have already said that they were going to jump ship. Not good. Oh well I need more glass so I'll spend my money there right now even though I am dissapointed in the lack of up grade in autofocus and FPS.