It's about druthers . . .

agfa100 · Jan 11, 2008

So when is the SD15 going to be introduced?

Last night I was at borderes and was looking through the latest issue of Shutterbug and did not see the normal Sigma ad for the SD14. Now I could have missed it but all I noticed was the two full page lens ads but did not see one for the SD14. Sigma for years have been running the two full page lens ads and then one for whatever the regular SD camera body was at that time.

Is this why they blow out prices on the SD14 body over Christmas in the UK and here in the USA???

Just my .02

wbill

CSJC · Jan 11, 2008

Johannes,

I think regardless of how he word the questions. the kind of responses would have been similar.

Amadeus21 said:
Laurence,
as in so many other cases: a (may be) honest question is made, but
the qualitity of the answeres make it impossible to have any
resonable results.
It's a pity.

May be, You would be better in questioning:

" Please take the following items into a ranking order from 1st to
last. You may add one single item of your free choice".

Sorry
Johannes

--
C.

'My theory of composition? Simple: do not release the
shutter until everything in the viewfinder feels just right.'
~ Ernst Haas

shutterbug_houston · Jan 11, 2008

Laurence Matson said:
The SD14 is here and now. But let's get really wild and forget for a
moment what the pundits claim about Sigma's non-future. What about if
they were to make a new camera, one not yet discussed by the noted
Evansville, Indiana, salesman and the janitor at the Sear's Tower?
What if they decided to clean up the SD14 act? What should Sigma do?

Specifically, should they do anything about:

faster processing

high ISO noise reduction

in-camera anti-shake

bigger buffer

faster memory

stronger battery

sealed (water and dust) body

auto focus

white balance

shutter

metal body

faster frame rate

the LCD

Your wish list is all fine and well, but not entirely helpful to Sigma. It's safe to assume that all photographers want all these features and improvements in any camera, regardless of who makes it. The real test of how badly you want something is to pass on how much extra you're willing to pay to have the improvements over a base model. For example, if Sigma thinks its photographers are willing to pay 45% more for a metal body and weather sealant, they can then look and see how it will cost them to build a sturdier camera. If they can do it for less than a 45% increase in the retail price, it's a given that the next model will have those features. I suspect that all manufacturers of any product (camera, car, camcorder, VCR, television, or whatever) go through this thought process when they decide what features or imprvements to include in the next lineup of products offered. So if you really want the features included tell them: I'd like the next sensor to reduce high iso noise by 20% and I'm willing to pay 10% more than the current retail price of the current model....That is the kind of information that is really useful to a manufacturer. Anything else is just a wish list that implies you want something for nothing.
Best, Keefe.

jrdigitalart · Jan 11, 2008

stanislaw stitchanow wrote:

I want macroacessories, like bellows and stuff with full af or at least f stop control

With you on that one.

stanislaw stitchanow said:
Wanneer de lage lucht vlak over het water scheert
Wanneer de lage lucht ons nederigheid leert
Wanneer de lage lucht er grijs als leisteen is
Wanneer de lage lucht er vaal als keileem is
Wanneer de noordenwind de vlakte vierendeelt
Wanneer de noordenwind er onze adem steelt
Dan kraakt mijn land, mijn vlakke land
J. Brel

--
Sincere regards, Jim Roelofs

The world looks better with Foveon!
Please visit my gallery at http://www.pbase.com/jrdigitalart/

Mig · Jan 11, 2008

I would like a 1.3 crop factor. The 1.7 makes my lenses telephotos.

Next - buffer

Next battery life

The rest of the stuff I can live with.

justascot · Jan 11, 2008

agfa100 said:
So when is the SD15 going to be introduced?

I would imagine that Sigma will probably need a two year turn around between models, so its possibly another year away.

agfa100 said:
Last night I was at borderes and was looking through the latest issue
of Shutterbug and did not see the normal Sigma ad for the SD14. Now I
could have missed it but all I noticed was the two full page lens ads
but did not see one for the SD14. Sigma for years have been running
the two full page lens ads and then one for whatever the regular SD
camera body was at that time.

The SD14 seems to be featuring regularly now in the UK magazines. Very few retailers are selling it below £699, it only seems to be Jessops and a couple of other retailers that have taken it upon themselves to sell it for £499. I've heard the price has went up again in the US, so maybe it was only a post christmas clearing of the stock thing.

agfa100 said:
Is this why they blow out prices on the SD14 body over Christmas in
the UK and here in the USA???

Just my .02

wbill

spm · Jan 11, 2008

had their voices and input for what's important...

For me...I want one in bright orange or zebra with bright yellow or fluorescent pink body...so that everyone would know I am taking pictures with the Sigma, so the popular culture and brand snob don't have to strain their eyes to see what I am shooting with...this way they can sneer/snub by the colors I have and have their insult lines out spontanously...hehe...save a lot of time that way...

S

Laurence Matson said:
The SD14 is here and now. But let's get really wild and forget for a
moment what the pundits claim about Sigma's non-future. What about if
they were to make a new camera, one not yet discussed by the noted
Evansville, Indiana, salesman and the janitor at the Sear's Tower?
What if they decided to clean up the SD14 act? What should Sigma do?

Specifically, should they do anything about:

faster processing

high ISO noise reduction

in-camera anti-shake

bigger buffer

faster memory

stronger battery

sealed (water and dust) body

auto focus

white balance

shutter

metal body

faster frame rate

the LCD

anything else

It may sound strange to newbies, but Sigma really do seem to listen
to what is said and read this forum on occasion. Why not give them
our collective shopping list?

So pick a topic or two, tell them what you would like changed and
why, come up with new ideas and have some fun dreaming. Keep it
within reason and what makes real sense. Who knows? What you wish for
may come true.

This in the spirit of the current primary adage: "Yes we can!"

--
Laurence

My idea of good company is the fellowship of clever, well-informed
people, who have a great deal of conversation and liberality of ideas.

Jane Austen

http://www.pbase.com/lmatson/root
http://www.pbase.com/sigmadslr/root
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/sd10
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/sd9

--

'Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great.'

Mark Twain

jrdigitalart · Jan 11, 2008

...I didn't you're just a showoff at heart.

Sincere regards, JR

Petros35 · Jan 11, 2008

Laurence Matson said:
...

Specifically, should they do anything about:

faster processing

Absolutely

Laurence Matson said:
high ISO noise reduction

Most importantly for me, this should be an option to turn on or off, not something that I can't control. Ideally it would not be applied to RAW, only to in-cam JPEGs and would be available in SPP.

Laurence Matson said:
in-camera anti-shake

uhh, OK.

Laurence Matson said:
bigger buffer

Absolutely

Laurence Matson said:
faster memory

duh. And let's get some faster processing speed, too.

Laurence Matson said:
stronger battery

can't say.

Laurence Matson said:
sealed (water and dust) body

not important for me

Laurence Matson said:
auto focus

Based on the few weeks I had with an SD14, AF was useless at best. Judging from comments I've heard from others who own one, it's a real toss up - either you get a camera with working AF or you don't.

Laurence Matson said:
white balance

This is truly the Achilles Heel of the Sigma cameras, isn't it? From what I saw of a few images posted on the forum by users of the Mac-only Raw Developer, it can be dealt with successfully, but none of the teams which have worked on SPP to date have had any luck to my (and others) satisfaction.

Laurence Matson said:
shutter

It's good enough for me as it is.

Laurence Matson said:
metal body

Honestly, the material is less important for me than size. The SD14 was too small for my hands.

Laurence Matson said:
faster frame rate

Absolutely

Laurence Matson said:
the LCD

sure, why not?

Laurence Matson said:
anything else

yes.

Laurence Matson said:
It may sound strange to newbies, but Sigma really do seem to listen
to what is said and read this forum on occasion. Why not give them
our collective shopping list?

So pick a topic or two, tell them what you would like changed and
why, come up with new ideas and have some fun dreaming. Keep it
within reason and what makes real sense. Who knows? What you wish for
may come true.

I want to be completely honest then. I tried the SD14 for about a month and was not impressed enough to buy one. The AF issues were awful (I ended up shooting some artwork with my SD9 because I couldn't get a decent image of it from the SD14). Also affecting that artwork shoot was, I believe, the NR processes incorporated into the newer versions of SPP. The images looked plastic beyond anything I had ever seen from a Sigma, so for me getting rid of this effect is high up on the list of things to do.

Image/r size. I think this was the one most important reason I didn't feel like dishing out cash for the SD14 (and they wanted a sizable amount at first...). For all the wait and all the hype, I would have thought we could expect at least 6 MP in the SD14. Not only did they barely increase the resolution, but they did it at the expense of photosite size which seems to have had some connection to the early complaints of color artifacts in images. At this point we would be justified in expecting at least a 6-8 MP sensor in the next Sigma with the sensor being physically larger as well. I still don't feel a need to get an SD14 despite its reduced price, which is kind of sad...

In my humble opinion, the release of the SD14, it's opening price, the issues it still had and its performance parameters can only be described as a debacle which only got worse when they lowered the price so drastically in such a short amount of time. I truly hope that the next Sigma camera will open my eyes again in the same ground shaking way that the first SD cameras did.

Best regards,

Peter
--
Peter Argyropoulos
http://petros.pl
SUG logo page: http://petros.pl/sug/

sunflowerflyer · Jan 11, 2008

People buy Sitma's for the image quality, so try to improve that first. Basically at or near full frame, with enough pixels to compete with cameras at the time it comes out. Work on the high ISO noise (can the Foveon chip take a voltage boost?). Extra credit for D80 type performance.

adegroot · Jan 11, 2008

Very easy to remove dust protector and then a IR filter in its place.

Chuck Lantz · Jan 11, 2008

Well, since you asked nicely:

faster processing

...faster is always better, as long as it could be done without sacrificing image quality. If not, leave it alone.

high ISO noise reduction

...same as above; if it can be done without sacrifice, do it. Low light capability is always a nice thing to have.

in-camera anti-shake

...I've never needed anti-shake, either in-camera or in-lense, even when shooting action sports, though it might benefit others.

bigger buffer

...a bigger buffer would definitely be a big plus, for me anyway. This is especially true with the SD14. With the faster response of the SD14, when compared to the SD9, I'm shooting more frames now, and loading the buffer more quickly. While I don't often have to wait for the buffer to clear, it happens enough that it's an inconvenience during some sessions.

faster memory

...same as above

stronger battery

...with the cheap(er) clone batteries and the new battery loading system, changing batteries is not the issue it was with the SD9. I wouldn't mind staying with the current system.

sealed (water and dust) body

...I've doused the camera in salt water a few times, with no problem, but better sealing is always a plus.

auto focus

...a few more focus points would be great, especially if the new ones were located in the "thirds" area, (three rows of three points)

white balance

...the current system works well, especially since SPP pretty much solves anything I may have missed when setting WB.

shutter

...don't even THINK of touching the current shutter! It's perfect.

metal body

...metal is old-school. It bends, corrodes and so on. Modern plastics work just fine. But if Sigma want's to go all modern and wild, how about carbon-fiber?

faster frame rate

...as mentioned at the top, if it can be done without lowering image quality, the more the merrier.

the LCD

...the size and function of the LCD works fine the way it is, IMO.

anything else

...it may not be possible, since it involves a mechanical lens function, but it would be nice to have a "hot button" option that would allow me to toggle between manual and auto focus without having to mess with the lense button.

And maybe an AF override function on the shutter button that would stop and hold AF.

And a bracket AF limiter that would prevent the AF from going all the way to the stops when focus is lost.

How about a software function that would allow the user to calibrate the RGB mix in camera? My "originals" always have a slight greeen tint that I have to kill in SPP. Being able to set a default in the camera would save a lot of time.

Maybe a choice of focus screens, easily changed?

Anf finally, maybe a focus calibration adjustment in-camera.

--

'If they're not screaming at you to get out of the way, you're not close enough' http://www.ChuckLantz.com

OnlyRealPixel · Jan 11, 2008

There is already a shift and tilt for Sigma mount.

Nikon wide angle zoom is better than their old wide prime. Sigma wide angle zooms are probably later, better, than Sigma wide primes. One thing primes give, though, is low f-stops.

Digital Coast Image · Jan 11, 2008

Higher ISO performance would be the top of my list.

The battery life sucks, but the camera is so much cheaper than say a 5D, that buying a few extra batteries is a no brainer and that is what I did (power grip too).

Larger buffer (I've had a few times I filled it up and then missed a few good shots waiting for it to clear).

Everything else I'm fine with.. just those three improvements I'd like to see.

Michael James
DigitalCoastImage.com

Truman Prevatt · Jan 11, 2008

Peter,

The exact reason I was very disappointed with the SD14. It was a non-starter. While other cameras were in the process of going to full frame or at least 1.3 crop factors, Sigma has the smallest sensor - claiming it has the best image quality - BS. When it comes to image quality - sensor size matters. It always has, it always will.

I don't know the problems. I don't know if Foevon can't produce a larger sensor. I don't know if Foveon can't lay down a larger photosite. In reality, I don't really care. They have been passed by. Like you I didn't bite when Sigma tried to give them away which is kind of sad.

Truman

Petros35 said:
Image/r size. I think this was the one most important reason I didn't
feel like dishing out cash for the SD14 (and they wanted a sizable
amount at first...). For all the wait and all the hype, I would have
thought we could expect at least 6 MP in the SD14. Not only did they
barely increase the resolution, but they did it at the expense of
photosite size which seems to have had some connection to the early
complaints of color artifacts in images. At this point we would be
justified in expecting at least a 6-8 MP sensor in the next Sigma
with the sensor being physically larger as well. I still don't feel a
need to get an SD14 despite its reduced price, which is kind of sad...

--
Truman
http://www.pbase.com/tprevatt

Joseph S Wisniewski · Jan 11, 2008

Laurence Matson said:
The SD14 is here and now. But let's get really wild and forget for a
moment what the pundits claim about Sigma's non-future. What about if
they were to make a new camera, one not yet discussed by the noted
Evansville, Indiana, salesman and the janitor at the Sear's Tower?

Laurence, I think the previous two sentences add nothing to the discussion and set a strong negative tone. I know you believe this is "humor", but it paints Sigma users in a negative light.

Laurence Matson said:
What if they decided to clean up the SD14 act? What should Sigma do?

Specifically, should they do anything about:

faster processing

high ISO noise reduction

in-camera anti-shake

bigger buffer

faster memory

stronger battery

sealed (water and dust) body

auto focus

white balance

shutter

metal body

faster frame rate

the LCD

All of the above.

Laurence Matson said:
anything else

Of course.

Movie mode. The Foveon chip was the first in the game with that capability. I've done it on Foveon based industrial cameras, and it works. Sony, with their column based A/D converter approach, is poised to do it for the competition. They're about to go where Sigma should have been four years ago.

Live view. Sigma could have been first. Now it's a "must have" feature (Phil has started listing lack of live view as a "con" in DSLR reviews). Now Nikon, Canon, and Oly are shipping live view cameras, Pentax is showing one at PMA. Instead of being the first with this feature, Sigma is about to become the only one without it.

Higher viewfinder magnification. Even 2x crop Olys have bigger viewfinders than SD-14.

Make the mirror smaller (it's bigger than it needs to be for a 1.5x crop, let alone a 1.7x). This has the double benefit of reducing noise and vibration, and paving the way to...

Move the dust protector back about 2mm. This means that the rear elements of various fast M42 and Nikon mount lenses won't hit the protector. Which also means they should...

Restore the SD9, SD-10 style lens mount lugs that were used for the Nikon adapter.

Laurence Matson said:
It may sound strange to newbies, but Sigma really do seem to listen
to what is said and read this forum on occasion. Why not give them
our collective shopping list?

So pick a topic or two, tell them what you would like changed and
why, come up with new ideas and have some fun dreaming. Keep it
within reason and what makes real sense. Who knows? What you wish for
may come true.

This in the spirit of the current primary adage: "Yes we can!"

Actually, that's Canon's motto.

--
Normally, a signature this small can't open its own jumpgate.

Ciao! Joseph

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

Joseph S Wisniewski · Jan 11, 2008

Kendall Helmstetter Gelner said:
1) I'd like to have as an option, that the camera not ever go to
sleep (always ready to take a picture instantly when the power switch
is on).

2) The AF points it has are fine by me, improved speed and accuracy
(esp. when tracking moving objects) would be nice.

3) The body build and materials are good.

4) I would like to have a brighter LCD. I'm not even sure I need
more pixels, just a really good quality display.

5) Replace the top LCD with e-paper so you can see the settings even
when the camera is off.

It doesn't need to be e-paper (which acts badly in cold weather). Most camera manufacturers use a low multiplexed top LCD, which means you can hold the display running with very little power, just like an LCD wrist watch. Nikon has been doing that since their very first film cameras with top panel LCDs.

They turn off some parts of the display, just so that the camera has a definite "on" and "off" state. But they leave a lot of information displayed, especially frames remaining on the card and shooting mode. Their philosophy is, if the information would have been available on a fully mechanical camera, make sure it's on the LCD when the camera is off.

Kendall Helmstetter Gelner said:
6) I would like to return to the way zooming into previews worked
with the SD-10, at least as an option. Zooming around the rendered
JPG may be faster or use less power, but I think it's just a little
harder to determine final sharpness of the image when shooting RAW,
it would be nice if it would do something on the fly to give you a
better idea what you had for fine detail.

They need to do it the way a raw processing program does: show the JPEG preview image immediately, and start decoding the raw in the background. Switch over when the raw is completely decoded.

Kendall Helmstetter Gelner said:
7) I think in camera IS is inevitable in every camera, I would like
to see that.

8) (stolen from the EVIL camera sometimes talked about up on news) an
option to add a cooling module to the camera (really a heat sink) to
draw heat away from the sensor. In general some design that would
optimize to draw away heat.

You really have to prevent heat getting to the sensor. The biggest heat sources in the camera are the main processor and the backlights for the LCD. The sensor draws 50mW, the LCD backlight on a modern 3 inch LCD draws between 1 and 3W.

Kendall Helmstetter Gelner said:
What I do NOT need is an EVF. Not yet anyway, perhaps in ten years.

Trust me, you need it, now.

--
Normally, a signature this small can't open its own jumpgate.

Ciao! Joseph

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

Joseph S Wisniewski · Jan 11, 2008

spm said:
had their voices and input for what's important...
For me...I want one in bright orange or zebra with bright yellow or
fluorescent pink body...so that everyone would know I am taking
pictures with the Sigma, so the popular culture and brand snob don't
have to strain their eyes to see what I am shooting with...this way
they can sneer/snub by the colors I have and have their insult lines
out spontanously...hehe...save a lot of time that way...

On a more serious note, I thought of you when I said "live view". For us IR and macro fans, it's just so incredible a feature.

--
Normally, a signature this small can't open its own jumpgate.

Ciao! Joseph

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

spm · Jan 11, 2008

jrdigitalart said:
...I didn't you're just a showoff at heart.

Ok JR...you can have your black but I want my splashy and gearish...

S

jrdigitalart said:
Sincere regards, JR

--

'Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great.'

Mark Twain

spm · Jan 11, 2008

Joseph S Wisniewski said:
spm said:

had their voices and input for what's important...
For me...I want one in bright orange or zebra with bright yellow or
fluorescent pink body...so that everyone would know I am taking
pictures with the Sigma, so the popular culture and brand snob don't
have to strain their eyes to see what I am shooting with...this way
they can sneer/snub by the colors I have and have their insult lines
out spontanously...hehe...save a lot of time that way...

Click to expand...

On a more serious note, I thought of you when I said "live view". For
us IR and macro fans, it's just so incredible a feature.

Thank you Joe...how are you doing btw?
S

Joseph S Wisniewski said:
--
Normally, a signature this small can't open its own jumpgate.

Ciao! Joseph

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

--

'Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great.'

Mark Twain

It's about druthers . . .

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