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Canada's iPod Tax

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It*s "Eins - Zwei - Eins - Zwei" and besides a little rasist too...

Just buy no CDs or DVDs...

I still don't understand the difference between downloading music and listening to the radio.
Even when streaming the Musik is stored in RAM temporarily.

In Germany they passed a law that downloading is illegal. In Austria you can still download as long as you are not uploading stuff...but I guess Mafia Law will swap over some day.
Berghof said:
exactly but remember EINv - ZWEI - EIN - ZWEI,keep your steps in
order,don't ask any questions and obey,only then you are a good
citizen
--
Berghof G.C.
Click to expand...
--
Get poor or live trying

http://www.marcuskraus.at
 
porcellan said:
I still don't understand the difference between downloading music and
listening to the radio.
Click to expand...
Downloading is more like taping from the radio than just listening to it. Which depending on the laws of the land and what you do with the recording after may or may not be ilegal. As I have jsut discovered this is in part why Canada doesn't seem to have come up with a conrete definition of how or if 'downloading' is a breach of copyright (uploading and sharing downloaded songs is a different matter).

I really do find alll this interesting, because it will have an impact on the future of music, movies etc.

James
 
I doubt that it has any impact on movie or music sales.

Thats what the studios say. But in reality people that used to go to the movies still go to the movies. (I used to go a lot but now a ticket costs up to 10€...10 years ago it was like 4-5€ max!) People that bought DVDs will still buy them, those who rented them maybe download them. And the kids download them but they would not have bought them in the first place.
Criminalising millions of costumers won*t help either.
Its rather a market consolidation back to reality than anything else.

Do you think that downloads are really the reason for sinking profits in the music industry?

A German politican recently sayed something about insane sportmans incomes...that it is not okay that they earn in a year what a normal working person won't earn in a lifetime. Those who live that well of the money made in the music industry - and they do - should shut up and lighten up a little.

I am appalled every time I see what happens when loads of money meets loads of bad taste on MTV-Cribs...lol

--
Get poor or live trying
 
The tax on empty media is also distributet to visual artists...photogs, video, theather, writers,...
You just have to get a member..so you pay for getting money...
photoshlock said:
Iaindk said:
Well, I've had images "stolen" from my web site in the past, I
presume this data has been stored on some form of memory card, hard
drive etc.

Could you please advise where I apply to receive some of this "tax"
money?
Click to expand...
Sorry, photographers just get to pay the tax. You have to rely on
copyright law and civil litigation like everyone else, except the
music industry.
Click to expand...
--
Get poor or live trying

http://www.marcuskraus.at
 
James Arnold 1971 said:
BTW when you buy that crowbar in Canada their is a Provincial Sales
Tax, Federal Sales tax, the employee selling it pays income tax for
money earned selling it to you as did you on the dollars earned to
buy it, whoever owns the store you bought it at pays comercial
property tax etc. etc. etc. All those taxes will contribute to the
local police who will investigate and arrest someone who does use the
crowbar for a crime.

It was just reasoned that this was a more practical approach that
tossing people in jail for buying the crowbar :) (this way we can
leave more people free to work and pay taxes on more crowbars..)
Click to expand...
Unless there are no such taxes on recordable media your analogy fails miserably...

Or is there a rebate to homeowners from the sales of crowbars to compensate them for their possible future loss to theft?
 
porcellan said:
I doubt that it has any impact on movie or music sales.
Click to expand...
It most certainly does impact movie and music sales. Just last week one of the 2 remaining music stores in my town selling new media closed its doors. And this is happening all over, of course downloading isn't the only cause but done legally or illegally it is having an impact on sales. What will be the end effect of that impact?
porcellan said:
Thats what the studios say. But in reality people that used to go to
the movies still go to the movies. (I used to go a lot but now a
ticket costs up to 10€...10 years ago it was like 4-5€ max!)
Click to expand...
I agree (I see probably 2-3 movies a month and this hasn't changed in as long as I can remember) but this is not the area of largest return for movies. Suppose in a few years it is, how will that affect ticket prices, or the scale of productions?
porcellan said:
People
that bought DVDs will still buy them, those who rented them maybe
download them.
Click to expand...
Not in all cases, I know this for a fact. Although I don't think this is simply a download thing it is also a copy thing as well.
porcellan said:
And the kids download them but they would not have
bought them in the first place.
Click to expand...
Probably right, the same way I taped hit songs of the radio when I was kid.
porcellan said:
Criminalising millions of costumers won*t help either.
Click to expand...
Why should I pay a fine (income tax) for working!

As I have poitned out in other posts we pay taxes all the time in different areas that pay for things we may not need, may not have done etc. This is no different its just focused on one market segment (like taxes on gas, booze, ciagarettes etc.), which makes some sense because the amount collected and made available to artists will fluctuate with the sales of media potentially used to spread their work without royalty payments. So some don't use the media for this its a pretty tiny levy that doesn't appear to have a massive effect on the price of media when compared with other countries.
porcellan said:
Its rather a market consolidation back to reality than anything else.
Click to expand...
? Not sure at all what yo mean.
porcellan said:
Do you think that downloads are really the reason for sinking profits
in the music industry?
Click to expand...
Well first of I am not sure they are shrinking as badly as they say. If they are then yes I would say that is one reason, but there are several. Speaking directly to downloads, the reasons would include;

Free downloading and sharing I mean regardless of the arguments on this board this really does happen and its a lot easier than it was to copy a record to tape often with better quality that the music industry offers with legal downloads.

Other forms of entertainment consuming disposable income, dvd's and video games. Most people still have the same amount of money with more places to spread it (combines with the first reason because music is the easiest to aquire for free).

The way pay digital downloads are set up. Once again the single is alive and well , you don't need the other 10 songs that are garbage! Also its seems with digital downloads they ecpect you to pay as much or even more for a cd's worth of music which will be lower quality than a CD with no packaging? This is improving but I will be sold when they charge kb downloaded and allow the user to determine the quality they want.

So yeah they are part of the reason for sure but partly this is the music industries fault for failing to see opportunities.
porcellan said:
A German politican recently sayed something about insane sportmans
incomes...that it is not okay that they earn in a year what a normal
working person won't earn in a lifetime. Those who live that well of
the money made in the music industry - and they do - should shut up
and lighten up a little.
Click to expand...
Well there are probably a lot more sportsman (athletes) able to accomplish that than musicians. There are fewer artists that earn in a lifetime what many athletes earn in a single contract. Bad comparison.

But you are right, so long as they are and can continue to earn a decent living they should be happy? I think they are scarred of the future.
porcellan said:
I am appalled every time I see what happens when loads of money meets
loads of bad taste on MTV-Cribs...lol
Click to expand...
music should be listened to not watched, :)

James
 
ksj said:
James Arnold 1971 said:
BTW when you buy that crowbar in Canada their is a Provincial Sales
Tax, Federal Sales tax, the employee selling it pays income tax for
money earned selling it to you as did you on the dollars earned to
buy it, whoever owns the store you bought it at pays comercial
property tax etc. etc. etc. All those taxes will contribute to the
local police who will investigate and arrest someone who does use the
crowbar for a crime.

It was just reasoned that this was a more practical approach that
tossing people in jail for buying the crowbar :) (this way we can
leave more people free to work and pay taxes on more crowbars..)
Click to expand...
Unless there are no such taxes on recordable media your analogy fails
miserably...
Click to expand...
The crowbar/arrest anaology was bad but wasn't mine either. I was just arguing about why we don't arrest every one who purchases one. We have another system in place (combined with home owner insurrance) that works already for crowbars :)
ksj said:
Or is there a rebate to homeowners from the sales of crowbars to
compensate them for their possible future loss to theft?
Click to expand...
No but perhaps thats a good idea, if a significant percentage of all crowbars sold are regularly used to break into homes, perhaps this is something that should be looked into.

The taxes mentioned above in the sale of a crowabar are also applied to the sale of a CD and do assist the authorities in nabbing the bad guys.

The point of my post however was that taxes\levies are not collected in a way that is allways going to match either the needs or actions of the person they are being collected for. Feeling "criminalized" by this particular levy is as silly as feeling penalized by paying for other childrens education while not being elligable for tax breaks because you don't have any kids.

James
 
James Arnold 1971 said:
James Arnold 1971 said:
Its rather a market consolidation back to reality than anything else.
Click to expand...
? Not sure at all what yo mean.
Click to expand...
Just saying that it must have been clear to the MI that a market based on nothing but musik that is easily available through radio, mtv, internet, soundtracks, advertisement,... can't grow forever.
Like a bubble.

What they are doing now is just sitting and waiting, maybe fighting something that can't be controlled anymore anyways. Just to keep it running.

If I was Sony and was not making money anymore on Musik I would just stop the whining and sell it off.

But like you sayed, they still get the money...whether it comes from music sales or games sales does not matter. And they will invent new ways of taking money...the subscriber scheme for World of Warcraft is only the beginning.

Maybe I am not the typical consumer...I rather read a book (borrowed) or enjoy pasttimes that don't cost money...

The typical consumer seems to buy at least 2 DVDs a month, some Audio, loads of merchandising stuff and other stuff a normal human needs or fancys.

The more I think of it I fell that I might live the lifestyle of a modern cosume-denier.

I also like the idea that a whole industry is in some kind of armagedon state. I don't believe that if Sony goes down every little label that produces quality music will also go down.

This is maybe even a big chance for small indies with loyal and devoted costomers and just weeds out what should have not been in the first place (that was the idea behing consolidation.)

It would be nice if everybody could earn what he deserves while fullfilling his dream (making movies, musik or producing anything else).

The German band "Einstürzende Neubauten" has a very interesting model. They have a fanbase that finances their work up-front and then they get even involved in the developement of the album/music. They can be part of the process. But you need a real relationship to the costumer to live that way...

Maybe I am far from reality but otoh this is just how I live and I don't buy or listen to most of the music from major labels...
 
James Arnold 1971 said:
The point of my post however was that taxes\levies are not collected
in a way that is allways going to match either the needs or actions
of the person they are being collected for. Feeling "criminalized" by
this particular levy is as silly as feeling penalized by paying for
other childrens education while not being elligable for tax breaks
because you don't have any kids.

James
Click to expand...
This levy is another way for the music industry to soak as much as they can out of people as possible. Can anyone explain to me why the cost of a CD hasn't gone down given supply & demand? It's really quite simple. We all are pretty certain that the labels collude and fix distributor prices, but the politico's are too enamored with the stars to do anything about it. In no other industry with an ever increasing supply (how many albums are released each and every year?) does the cost remain close to the same it was a decade ago.

I don't blame the artists (well, maybe some of them), but the labels & the RIAA are run a bunch of criminals as far as I'm concerned. If such a tax was ever proposed here in the US and my representatives voted for it I would not only be first in line to sign a recall petition, I'd pay to get the process going and for the advertising to ensure it's success.
 
ksj said:
Can anyone explain to me why the
cost of a CD hasn't gone down given supply & demand?
Click to expand...
The cost of producing a CD does go up. The costs for studio time, session musicians, engineers, case art, promotion, etc. does go up over time. That needs to be recouped. So even if demand goes down, CD prices can't necessarily go down because costs go up.

Now I'm not defending record companies who through every technology transition have stupidly and steadfastly resisted inevitable change. Apple's iTunes shows money can be made despite the rampant piracy through mp3's, etc. Rapid transition to EASY and CHEAP purchasing of music would have preserved more of the revenue/profit of the record companies so I have little sympathy for their problems, although I absolutely dislike any form of piracy/theft.
 
Wonderful spend time on a response and have the system not capture it at all...]'
paqman said:
ksj said:
Can anyone explain to me why the
cost of a CD hasn't gone down given supply & demand?
Click to expand...
The cost of producing a CD does go up. The costs for studio time,
session musicians, engineers, case art, promotion, etc. does go up
over time. That needs to be recouped. So even if demand goes down,
CD prices can't necessarily go down because costs go up.

Now I'm not defending record companies who through every technology
transition have stupidly and steadfastly resisted inevitable change.
Apple's iTunes shows money can be made despite the rampant piracy
through mp3's, etc. Rapid transition to EASY and CHEAP purchasing of
music would have preserved more of the revenue/profit of the record
companies so I have little sympathy for their problems, although I
absolutely dislike any form of piracy/theft.
Click to expand...
 
Sorry, the cost of producing the music may go up but the cost of reproducing the media has gone way down and the cost of the media is really all that counts from a consumer perspective. Their costs, as you have mentioned have gone up, logically they should be making a mint. The problem is they decided a CD should be X amount regardless of those costs (the extra $200K for the costs you mention over the millions of CD's spread over the lifetime of a work is trivial). And don't say they need to do this for all of their artists, they don't today and even when they do it's generally cr*p that they should be taking the risk for, not us.

Their decison is killing their business. Would you buy a CD without rights to copy for $3 and one you can copy for $5? They would be a line outside every music store and they'd be on OT at the presssing plant. And the industry would be healthy. Instead you have a bunch of idiots ignoring economic realities and looking to the government for more of a handout than the ludicrous 65+ year copyright laws we have today.

Just let Micky become public domain and actually innovate for todays consumer for goodness sakes. They have the fricking talent.
paqman said:
ksj said:
Can anyone explain to me why the
cost of a CD hasn't gone down given supply & demand?
Click to expand...
The cost of producing a CD does go up. The costs for studio time,
session musicians, engineers, case art, promotion, etc. does go up
over time. That needs to be recouped. So even if demand goes down,
CD prices can't necessarily go down because costs go up.

Now I'm not defending record companies who through every technology
transition have stupidly and steadfastly resisted inevitable change.
Apple's iTunes shows money can be made despite the rampant piracy
through mp3's, etc. Rapid transition to EASY and CHEAP purchasing of
music would have preserved more of the revenue/profit of the record
companies so I have little sympathy for their problems, although I
absolutely dislike any form of piracy/theft.
Click to expand...
 
paqman said:
ksj said:
Can anyone explain to me why the
cost of a CD hasn't gone down given supply & demand?
Click to expand...
The cost of producing a CD does go up. The costs for studio time,
session musicians, engineers, case art, promotion, etc. does go up
over time. That needs to be recouped. So even if demand goes down,
CD prices can't necessarily go down because costs go up.
Click to expand...
faulty reasoning; today more than ever, you don't NEED a million dollar 128 track sony studio to do 'pop music' in. a $1k keyboard, $1k of audio equip and a pc will do that! seriouly. its not MY fault that musicians are still doing things the old fashioned way. but more and more ARE hip to the new way of doing things. home studios are a reality now for even very poor musicians.

the cost of music/media was wrong to begin with and its even more wrong now.

and the same can be said about photog, too, even though that will annoy some here. yes, you 'pros' are losing share to weekend warriors. tech has enabled more people to encroach on your turf.

and same in my business. it used to be that you had to be well trained in computers to be a software engineer but now any yahoo with $500 and a home pc can claim he's a 'webmaster' or engineer of some kind. add to that the fact that outsourcing is causing local jobs to dry up - my field is getting 'hit' as well by technology advances and the fact that the entrance price to BE in the field is measured in hundreds of dollars and not 10's of thousands.

--
Bryan
(pic stream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/linux-works ) ~
 
ksj said:
Sorry, the cost of producing the music may go up but the cost of
reproducing the media has gone way down and the cost of the media is
really all that counts from a consumer perspective. Their costs, as
you have mentioned have gone up, logically they should be making a
mint. The problem is they decided a CD should be X amount regardless
of those costs (the extra $200K for the costs you mention over the
millions of CD's spread over the lifetime of a work is trivial). And
don't say they need to do this for all of their artists, they don't
today and even when they do it's generally cr*p that they should be
taking the risk for, not us.
Click to expand...
Ok on th issue of the price of CD's not going down. I have been paying the same amount for CD's for nearly 20 years. That is they have not gone up in price, which does mean they are actaully cheaper now than they were almost 20 years ago. Have the costs of pressing and distributing thousands of discs really gone down that much, I really doubt it. The material (ie the physical discs and cases) may be but the rest would have gone up in price and even the material being largely plastic would have gone up as well. It isn't the same media or process we use at home.

Regardless of the cost of mass producing and distributing physical discs, I do believe the industry has failed to cease the opportunity of digital distrobution and if they are really loosing money have only themselves to blame.

A great thing I just read about DRM stated it does work! Produce a product nobody wants to buy and nobody will illegally copy to friends who aren't interested in it either!

James
 
linuxworks said:
the cost of music/media was wrong to begin with and its even more
wrong now.
Click to expand...
What should it have been then and what do you think it should be now?

I believe that the $ kb downloaded is the way to go for purchase of music and other media (user determined quality).

James
 
JamesArnoldhome said:
linuxworks said:
the cost of music/media was wrong to begin with and its even more
wrong now.
Click to expand...
What should it have been then and what do you think it should be now?
Click to expand...
then it was a different world. analog multitracking, expensive digital multitracking, tapes, large mixing boards and expensive advertising.

today, I think almost all that is moot. advertising does NOT have to be via 'big media companies'. that's a myth, given the internet today. all that 'pop music' that costs so much to buy can be done at home for $5k of equipment.

cd pressing USED to be wicked expensive. not stamping cd's is pennies. burning them (for demos) can be done for beer money.

its a different world. I see no reason to pay $20 for a cd anymore. in fact, 1/10 of that is more in line with the value of music and cost of production.

if you are micing a whole orchestra that's a different thing entirely; but for pop music and 'voice fixers' that they have - you can be mostly talentless and the system will cover for you.
JamesArnoldhome said:
I believe that the $ kb downloaded is the way to go for purchase of
music and other media (user determined quality).
Click to expand...
yup, agreed. I've bought more than my share at the russian site, allofmp3. I got to choose my cost structure and audio quality from it. no drm and no BS. too bad the US got all crazy on them and tried to shut them down.

--
Bryan
(pic stream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/linux-works ) ~
 
ksj said:
The problem is they decided a CD should be X amount regardless
of those costs (the extra $200K for the costs you mention over the
millions of CD's spread over the lifetime of a work is trivial).
Click to expand...
VERY, VERY few artists sell 'millions of CDs'. The majority sell thousands so that extra $200K you mentioned adds up because that is PER unique CD produced.
ksj said:
Their decison is killing their business. Would you buy a CD without
rights to copy for $3 and one you can copy for $5? They would be a
line outside every music store and they'd be on OT at the presssing
plant. And the industry would be healthy. Instead you have a bunch
of idiots ignoring economic realities and looking to the government
for more of a handout than the ludicrous 65+ year copyright laws we
have today.
Click to expand...
I agree - I did say their resistance to changing realities is their own fault.
 
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