IR Filters & F707

Richard Cooper · May 2, 2002

I plan to purchase an ND .9 and a Hoya RM72 filter for daylight infrared imaging.
Which filter screws on to the lens first? The ND or the RM72? Or does it matter.
Richard Cooper

Eric Lamont · May 2, 2002

My setup is as follows:

707=> uv filter=> B+W 093 IR filter=> 4xND filter

Note, you need some kind of device to cover the IR emitters on the barrel of the camera. I have cut a doughnut out of some very thin rubber matting. Anything like cardboard leaves dust or grit on the lens of your DA. Whatever you use, it must be under the first filter attached to the camera.

Oh and you don't have to leave you UV filter on, I just do it so I don't lose it or step on it or whatever.

Eric

Richard Cooper said:
I plan to purchase an ND .9 and a Hoya RM72 filter for daylight
infrared imaging.
Which filter screws on to the lens first? The ND or the RM72? Or
does it matter.
Richard Cooper

--
Eric
http://www.pbase.com/elamont
http://www.thedigitalgalleries.com/ (a work in progress)

You Wish · May 2, 2002

I would be putting the most expensive one on the inside, I gues that would be the IR.

Richard Cooper said:
I plan to purchase an ND .9 and a Hoya RM72 filter for daylight
infrared imaging.
Which filter screws on to the lens first? The ND or the RM72? Or
does it matter.
Richard Cooper

--
BFS ✔, DLS ✔, Sticker On ✔....and proud of it, 酷!

Richard Cooper · May 3, 2002

Eric: Thanks. So it's my UV + IR emitter blocker + R72 + ND.
Do you have an image of the blocker you made?
Richard

elamont said:
707=> uv filter=> B+W 093 IR filter=> 4xND filter

Note, you need some kind of device to cover the IR emitters on the
barrel of the camera. I have cut a doughnut out of some very thin
rubber matting. Anything like cardboard leaves dust or grit on the
lens of your DA. Whatever you use, it must be under the first
filter attached to the camera.

Oh and you don't have to leave you UV filter on, I just do it so I
don't lose it or step on it or whatever.

Eric

Richard Cooper said:

I plan to purchase an ND .9 and a Hoya RM72 filter for daylight
infrared imaging.
Which filter screws on to the lens first? The ND or the RM72? Or
does it matter.
Richard Cooper

Click to expand...

--
Eric
http://www.pbase.com/elamont
http://www.thedigitalgalleries.com/ (a work in progress)

Philly Wood · May 3, 2002

I am not a professional and that is why I have never tried this. (actually dont have an IR filter) anyway I have read that you can also use a polarizer to act like a neutral density filter. Comments??

Also since a main goal is to block the IR beam on the 707 itself, is it possible to use a much smaller IR filter and use a step down ring to serve two functions?

--
-photoave

Richard Cooper · May 3, 2002

photoave said:
I am not a professional and that is why I have never tried this.
(actually dont have an IR filter) anyway I have read that you can
also use a polarizer to act like a neutral density filter.
Comments??

Also since a main goal is to block the IR beam on the 707 itself,
is it possible to use a much smaller IR filter and use a step down
ring to serve two functions?

--
-photoave

You have it in reverse. We are not blocking the IR but blocking the visiable light with the filters. The F707 has a IIR cut filter that in the night shot mode is moved out of the way so the sensor will receive the IR band.
Richard cooper

Eric Lamont · May 3, 2002

Your IR emitter blocker goes right up against your camera, under all the filters. I will post a pic for you this evening.

Eric

Richard Cooper said:
elamont said:

707=> uv filter=> B+W 093 IR filter=> 4xND filter

Note, you need some kind of device to cover the IR emitters on the
barrel of the camera. I have cut a doughnut out of some very thin
rubber matting. Anything like cardboard leaves dust or grit on the
lens of your DA. Whatever you use, it must be under the first
filter attached to the camera.

Oh and you don't have to leave you UV filter on, I just do it so I
don't lose it or step on it or whatever.

Eric

Richard Cooper said:

I plan to purchase an ND .9 and a Hoya RM72 filter for daylight
infrared imaging.
Which filter screws on to the lens first? The ND or the RM72? Or
does it matter.
Richard Cooper

Click to expand...

--
Eric
http://www.pbase.com/elamont
http://www.thedigitalgalleries.com/ (a work in progress)

Click to expand...

--
Eric
http://www.pbase.com/elamont
http://www.thedigitalgalleries.com/ (a work in progress)

JohnK · May 3, 2002

photoave said:
I am not a professional and that is why I have never tried this.
(actually dont have an IR filter) anyway I have read that you can
also use a polarizer to act like a neutral density filter.
Comments??

Also since a main goal is to block the IR beam on the 707 itself,
is it possible to use a much smaller IR filter and use a step down
ring to serve two functions?

--
-photoave

Polarizer works great. As for your step down ring idea, I've been toying with the same thought. Looks like you would want to step down from 58mm to oh, say, 42mm... I just wonder if there would be vignetting trying to shoot through a 42mm filter...
--
JohnK

Doug Thompson · May 3, 2002

I use a polarizer for my IR piccies, and it works just fine. However, I haven't tried an ND filter yet, so I cannot comment on the difference.

I haven't tried a step-down adapter, either, but I found it quite simple to make a donut out of a DVD case (free AOL) that happen to be totally IR opaque. Just used a 1 5/8" drill bit to cut the inner hole, used a filter to trace out the outer radius, and there you have it.

Happy shooting,
Doug.
IR gallery: http://users.adelphia.net/~popedoug/

photoave said:
I am not a professional and that is why I have never tried this.
(actually dont have an IR filter) anyway I have read that you can
also use a polarizer to act like a neutral density filter.
Comments??

Also since a main goal is to block the IR beam on the 707 itself,
is it possible to use a much smaller IR filter and use a step down
ring to serve two functions?

--
-photoave

Philly Wood · May 3, 2002

I really want to get this clear. (the other replies seem to confirm my logic) however I may be sloppy with my language or I might be wrong. Filter usually means to block something out, but when people refer to infared filters it usually means JUST THE OPPOSITE. They want to filter out EVERYTHING but the IR. That is what I meant.

Should the little IR beam on the lens plate of the 707 be blocked to create the 'bleached look' images using NIGHTSHOT mode during daylight hours?

Richard Cooper said:
You have it in reverse. We are not blocking the IR but blocking the
visiable light with the filters. The F707 has a IIR cut filter that
in the night shot mode is moved out of the way so the sensor will
receive the IR band.
Richard cooper

--
-photoave

Richard Cooper · May 3, 2002

Now you'v got it. I get confused myself. Yes the emitters have to be blocked for daylight shooting with the filters in place.
Richard Cooper

photoave said:
Should the little IR beam on the lens plate of the 707 be blocked
to create the 'bleached look' images using NIGHTSHOT mode during
daylight hours?

Richard Cooper said:

You have it in reverse. We are not blocking the IR but blocking the
visiable light with the filters. The F707 has a IIR cut filter that
in the night shot mode is moved out of the way so the sensor will
receive the IR band.
Richard cooper

Click to expand...

--
-photoave

Doug Thompson · May 3, 2002

Yup, you've got to block them from shining their light on the filter. Obviously, the IR light from the emitters passes through the filter, but some is reflected back. It gets worse when you add a polarizer to the equation. The thing that I wonder about using a step-down adapter would be reflections off the step-down, because there is still space between the emitters and the step-down... do you see what I mean?

Happy shooting,
Doug.
IR gallery: http://users.adelphia.net/~popedoug/

photoave said:
Should the little IR beam on the lens plate of the 707 be blocked
to create the 'bleached look' images using NIGHTSHOT mode during
daylight hours?

Richard Cooper said:

You have it in reverse. We are not blocking the IR but blocking the
visiable light with the filters. The F707 has a IIR cut filter that
in the night shot mode is moved out of the way so the sensor will
receive the IR band.
Richard cooper

Click to expand...

--
-photoave

Eric Lamont · May 3, 2002

Thin and rubbery

Nice and bendy

Fits ok... if any portion of it sticks out to far, you wil get a shadow on the edge of your picture.

Not a nice and clean cut as I was trying for, but its not bad for a spurr of the moment creation with a pocket knife. Will do it again with an Exacto Knife and a compass when I have a chance.

Eric

Richard Cooper said:
I plan to purchase an ND .9 and a Hoya RM72 filter for daylight
infrared imaging.
Which filter screws on to the lens first? The ND or the RM72? Or
does it matter.
Richard Cooper

--
Eric
http://www.pbase.com/elamont
http://www.thedigitalgalleries.com/ (a work in progress)

JohnK · May 4, 2002

Richard Cooper said:
I plan to purchase an ND .9 and a Hoya RM72 filter for daylight
infrared imaging.
Which filter screws on to the lens first? The ND or the RM72? Or
does it matter.
Richard Cooper

Richard, IMHO the 707 is so sensitive to IR that you could use a stronger IR filter than the 72, and get a more pronounced IR effect.. I've been using a 87C, which passes only 8-900nm... works great. This chart may help:

This is a shot I took walking to work, yesterday, using an 87C with a circular polarizer.

--
JohnK

Richard Cooper · May 4, 2002

elamont said:
Thin and rubbery

Nice and bendy

Fits ok... if any portion of it sticks out to far, you wil get a
shadow on the edge of your picture.

Eric Lamont said:
Not a nice and clean cut as I was trying for, but its not bad for a
spurr of the moment creation with a pocket knife. Will do it again
with an Exacto Knife and a compass when I have a chance.

Eric

Richard Cooper said:

I plan to purchase an ND .9 and a Hoya RM72 filter for daylight
infrared imaging.
Which filter screws on to the lens first? The ND or the RM72? Or
does it matter.
Richard Cooper

Click to expand...

--
Eric
http://www.pbase.com/elamont
http://www.thedigitalgalleries.com/ (a work in progress)

Thank you
Richard Cooper

Don Karner · May 4, 2002

What a great shot John. Did you worry about bloking the IR emitter or whatevr? This really makes me want to get a 707. What size filters do they use?

JohnK said:
Richard Cooper said:

I plan to purchase an ND .9 and a Hoya RM72 filter for daylight
infrared imaging.
Which filter screws on to the lens first? The ND or the RM72? Or
does it matter.
Richard Cooper

Click to expand...

Richard, IMHO the 707 is so sensitive to IR that you could use a
stronger IR filter than the 72, and get a more pronounced IR
effect.. I've been using a 87C, which passes only 8-900nm... works
great. This chart may help:

This is a shot I took walking to work, yesterday, using an 87C with
a circular polarizer.

--
JohnK

--
Ol' Don in Broken Arrow

David Goldwasser · May 4, 2002

Does anyone find it much of a problem that you can't use manual controls in nightshot mode. Looks like can only have exposure bias of + - 2.

I've been playing photoshop blending shots taken with different lighting in photoshop, has really nice effect. (for example long exposure with ambient light, short exposure with flash, or with polerizing filter in different position.)

This of course has to be with still life, and tripod.

It woudl be interesting to see what effect one could get with IR, and visible light shots. Once I get a chance to get IR equipment for 707 I'll start playing. Thanks for everyone posting all the great info here.

JohnK · May 4, 2002

Don Karner said:
What a great shot John. Did you worry about bloking the IR emitter
or whatevr? This really makes me want to get a 707. What size
filters do they use?

Thanks for the feedback. Yes, I made a cardboard ring similar to one posted here. Today I've used a paper punch to punch out three little disks of black gaffers tape (which I first mounted on a scrap of palm pilot screen protector because the adhesive on the screen protector is way less agressive and gunky than the gaffers tape adhesive, and is made to be removed). I think these disks could be applied over the emitters for IR pics, then peeled off, and parked next to the emitter when not in use... 707s use 58mm filters (which are cheap and plentiful on ebay), and with a step down ring I'm able to use a 73mm lens shade and circular polarizer that I already owned (for Coolpix lens converters... made a lot of nice pics with a CP990, but it won't do acceptable IR, like the 707, so here I am obsessing about gaffers tape adhesive)

JohnK · May 4, 2002

David Goldwasser said:
Does anyone find it much of a problem that you can't use manual
controls in nightshot mode. Looks like can only have exposure bias
of + - 2.

Right, it is a major problem, but I guess us IR pioneers have to be grateful for whatever we can get... I wish someone would hack the firmware and get so-called nightshot to work with full controls... I'd pay for that little modification... any hacker-shutterbugs among us?
--
JohnK

Doug Thompson · May 4, 2002

Yeah, the limitations on exposure control really are unfortunate. I started shooting IR with Kodak HIE and a Konica Hexar Silver, which autofocuses for IR film. With that camera, you could set whatever exposures you may want to get the pic. Of course, I didn't have instant feedback or the ease of use, either.

I would love to open up the F707 and remove the IR blocking filter in normal shooting mode to obtain all exposure ranges. I've seen it done on a Nikon 950 and 995, but I don't have the cajones to do it yet...

Oh yeah, I second the 87C and CP combo-- works great for me.

Happy shooting,
Doug.
IR gallery: http://users.adelphia.net/~popedoug/

David Goldwasser said:
Does anyone find it much of a problem that you can't use manual
controls in nightshot mode. Looks like can only have exposure bias
of + - 2.

I've been playing photoshop blending shots taken with different
lighting in photoshop, has really nice effect. (for example long
exposure with ambient light, short exposure with flash, or with
polerizing filter in different position.)

This of course has to be with still life, and tripod.

It woudl be interesting to see what effect one could get with IR,
and visible light shots. Once I get a chance to get IR equipment
for 707 I'll start playing. Thanks for everyone posting all the
great info here.

IR Filters & F707

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