Still not satisfied

Hot discussion...

I want to say that all these opinions seem to me very particular impressions. I can express only my personal considerations.

For a 600$ camera, I'd expect much more for the results. The central point to me is the cost benefit relation. Of course, if money is no problem, I'd buy a GR to use one day when it's more convenient, keeping a dslr and more lens for other situations.

But my intention is keeping only one little digital "camera", using that all the time, to be expert over it... I want to extract maximum results, and I think I will reach it concentrating all atention in just one equipment. Less is more.

I am sure that digital noise is far to be like film grain... but it is not the problem. The look of this noise that is not acceptable to me. That's why I am not yet changing to Ricoh.

--
Marcelo
http://www.marcelosestren.com
 
Whether the blotchy grain is beautiful or ugly to an individual is not the point. The point is, you're going to get it whether you like it or not. I might like subtle grain (admittedly, not the big splotches seen in some of the above, but to each his own) occasionally, but not ALL the time. Indeed, I sometimes add genuinely film-like grain to a clean image in PP (and way more successfully than the GX-100 does by default). However, as often as not, I'd like higher ISO without mega splotches over everything.

If it were technically impossible to achieve, I wouldn't even bother writing about it - but it is technically possible, as demonstrated by Fuji in the past (but alas no longer). Once again, giving the camera makers a free pass by praising their pretty noise makes no sense to me. The fact is, the noise is a by-product of a marketing obsession, not because scientists have carefully made "beautifully grainy" sensors. It seems to me that every time this is pointed out, just as many people rush in to defend the camera maker as if they've done us a huge favour. They certainly have not - they have intentionally crammed pixels into the sensor to tart up the statistics for people who don't know any better. Is the $700 GX-100 really for people who don't know any better? Obviously not. So why put up with this nonsense... and why defend it?
 
Yes Marcello, I can follow you as I have the same feeling. And personal taste is what we need to avoid. Me, per example I do not like the style of Mitchall, but I know lots of people who likes it, even in our club. So, it is not important what somebody likes or not. When the maker likes it, it means that he is happy with it and this is the main thing.

Personal, I like more the style of Wouter per example. But again, this has nothing to see with what a cam can or can't do.

For me it is quite simple, not one small sensor camera is able to show perfect work, so we have to wait a while or buy different cams as one will work good in that area and an other in an other area!!!???

On the other hand, I am sure when Ricoh should be clever, they can beat the market for small sensor cameras quite easy. Is just a fact of thinking twice instead of once before making the cam and they would be able than to sell as real DSLR replacement and ask even more money for it. People who are looking for such a thing are not taking care in first order about price when the tool is giving what they promess.
Let's hope one day they will solve it.

As this afternoon per example I was in a museum for nature sciences and took some pics. What I discovered with the GX100? Suddenly (light was not changed and not one camera setting was changed) and I could not make a sharp picture anymore??? Reason, I do not know. I turned it off and worked well again, afer a while, again not able to take sharp pics anymore. I will post later on a flickr an example.
 
Having blotchy grain uniformly across the entire image is one thing.

Having blotchy grain ONLY in the shadows, while not having it at all in the properly exposed regions of the same image is an entirely different thing.

GRDII seems to exhibit the latter based on samples in this thread. That is too bad.
 
As a GX100 owner, I agree with your conclusion--that it is better to wait for a better camera of this genre--though for slightly different reasons than you've stated.

The so-called "grain" issue does not bother me - when the GX100 is working, it produces images that are of quite satisfactory quality (to me), though I find the image quality to drop off at the very modest 72mm maximum zoom focal length. That was a bit disappointing, as 72mm is pretty close to optimum portrait focal length (85mm for me). Tolerable, though.

What DOES bother me is the price-performance-quality equation that is at the heart of your question.

I came to the GX100 via the following route: For 30 years I abused and loved Nikon F series film cameras. Lugged 'em around in special LowePro backpacks and was NEVER let down. I started with digitals in '99 and went through a number of them before settling down for 3+ years on a full-manual Pentax 555, which I still use. I got the Pentax because I was tired of lugging around all of the big stuff, but still wanted full manual control and the ability to pocket it (kind of) when doing motorcycle rides. The 555 fit the bill perfectly...except for one thing: It's shortest focal length is 36mm, pretty much standard for the so-called P&S cameras.

I had been waiting for several years for a camera that had true wide-angle (i.e., without having to attach adapters), high image quality, easy portability, and build quality sufficient to survive careful but robust usage. I did not really care what the price was, as long as it met those criteria.

I came very close to going with the Olympus 7070 or 8080 - both just a little bigger than what I wanted. The Sony R1 met the wide-angle criterion, but was also bigger than what I wanted...and expensive. Panasonic got very close to capturing my money with either the LX1 or LX2, but the bad rap on the Venus processing engine kept me at bay. Ricoh GRD had an attraction--I always used only primes with my Nikons--but for a do-it-all camera I wanted at least a bit of flexibility in the focal length.

The GX100 appeared to be the perfect solution, so after waiting for more than three years I plunked down the equivalent of US$750 for the GX100/EVF/case kit. My photo-taking friends and family were incredulous that I'd spent that much money on an "off brand" P&S camera, when the same money would buy a DSLR body that could be used with all my existing Nikon glass...

But for about four smug and self-satisfied months, I thoroughly enjoyed the little GX100. The virtues cited by Grafi are real, and the camera really is a pleasure to use, other than the annoying lens cap design and the disconcerting wobbliness of the lens, which always seemed anomalous on a device of otherwise exemplary build quality. (I'm aware of all the justifications for this as being part of the "floating lens" design of the camera - sorry, I don't buy it, I'm coming from the school of thought that says that the lens should remain in fixed register to the film/sensor plane at all times.)

Then I fell victim to the "black spot" problem you will easily find for yourself in this forum and in the other Ricoh forum. When you start looking around for this problem, you'll be surprised at how many people have experienced it. It seems to be related to dust on the sensor, but it is apparently occuring with the GX100 at a much higher frequency than other P&S cameras. I say "apparently", because I have been unsuccessful in tracking down hard comparative data on this problem.

My GX100 has now been in the shop twice (it is still there) for a total of 7 weeks. If I ever get a functional camera back, it will be sold off for whatever I can get for it and I'll slink back either to the waiting game that I'm recommending to the original poster, or go back in time to the Olympus 7070 or 8080.

I belatedly concur with Marceloh that there's nothing currently on the market that provides good value in this niche. While the GX100 is pretty portable, has pretty good image quality (probably would have been better with few pixels on the sensor), and aces the wide-angle requirement...it is too delicate, at too high a price point.

If you have enough money to not care about the life-span of your investment, or have enough cameras to use others while your GX100 is in the shop, the camera itself is a delight to use, and you will like the photos you get with it. If you feel like the high purchase price of something like this should carry with it a fair expectation of robustness and reliability, my impression is that the odds are against you with the GX100. And since the GX100 is, according to my criteria, the "best of breed" in this currently narrow niche, either wait, or consider that you are buying a very expensive potentially disposable camera. Since Ricoh does not even market itself in some major markets, and is not generally recognized even by photo enthusiasts as a "camera company", you should not expect to get much of a return back on your investment, even if you acquire yours at several hundred less than I paid for mine.

The good news is that the GX100 is VERY CLOSE to a bulls-eye, though I don't think there is a huge buyer market for a camera of this type. The mass market snap-shooter is being beguiled by ridiculous megapixel numbers and 18x zoom lenses. If any maker--ideally one of the top-tier ones--cares to build on the GX100 lessons, there's a really good camera not too far over the horizon...

In the meantime, make sure you have SOMETHING and have fun with it. You'll be so pleased to see yourself and your family and your friends and the places you went in the rear-view mirror of time, you'll be much less demanding about the image quality than you are now...

:-D

S.
 
I agree completely. In fact Ricoh is not far away from the nearly perfect little cam. But too much annoying things now.

I hope lots of people will push Ricoh to bring out a cam without those annoying things.

So, let everybody do a mail with all things they discovered for them as not good. Not bundling the mails as they will look over it for sure. I sent out mine already months ago and every time I discover something I let them know.Maybe they wake up.

I will not say that they need to change all, but they can make it a real "Best prestige camera" thats for sure.
 
Sure turned out to be a hot thread;-)
I am not a Ricoh fan yet, but I expect to be soon as possible.
Hm, change of heart in 32 hours. I'm curious to hear your reasoning, if you don't mind.
Meanwhile, I go taking my photographs using what I own... today I
went with a Olympus OM2n, Zuiko 35mm and Provia 100.
OM2n, aah, the sweet nostalgia ;-)

I really enjoyed your pictures, all though the site's interface isn't easy when the pictures changes between portrait and landscape.

Anyway, whether any compact camera does the trick for you depends on your demands. I must admit, I'm very happy with my GX100 even with it's shortcomings. But then again, I never expected getting a Hubble telescope....

Cheers, and good luck.
Roger

--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/roger_m/
 
You have nothing to apologize for. You've expressed yourself quite
well in an international forum dedicated to photography. This is not
an English as a Second Language or Grammar forum. Do your thing, you
are making your points well.

Can we get back to the topic now?
Gimme a break, this self-righteousness is a bit much! When I write in a foreign language I'm quite pleased if someone corrects me because it's an effective way to improve one's command of that language. And that was a spirit in which I wrote to Mercelo that "cam" is not an abbreviation for "camera" that any native speaker of English would use, although the extent to which the resident troll here uses it would make non-native speaker think the contrary. I was not being sarcastic or unfriendly, nor supercilious and self-righteous, the way your post is.

—Mitch/Huahin
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10268776@N00/
 
I don't do flame wars, so this is my only comment:

If I were looking to provide off-topic, unsolicited, "friendly" grammatical advice in a public forum, I don't think I'd begin it with the phrase that the usage "grates on my ears". Opinions vary. So do perceptions...
 
I am not a Ricoh fan yet, but I expect to be soon as possible.
Hm, change of heart in 32 hours. I'm curious to hear your reasoning,
if you don't mind.r
I mean Ricoh's cameras are very close to what I expect. I will probably be a Ricoh owner when they match what I want... who knows along 2008.

Besides, I am identified with Ricoh forum... maybe because the photographers here have similar objectives.

--
Marcelo
http://www.marcelosestren.com
http://www.brfoto.com.br
 

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