Tepid "Overall Conclusion" for the a700 from Phil Askey & Simon Joinson

ed209 · Dec 21, 2007

Anastigmat said:
The price of the A700 would probably need to come down if Sony
is serious about increasing market share.

I think this is the most serious point of all. It is being made by so many people and Sony's marketing team need to wake up to it.

At the A700's price, it main group of buyers is going to be existing A mount shooters in need of an upgrade or a more current body. It is unlikely to entice people new to the Sony system, especially when you consider the small system backup that exists at the moment. If Sony limit their market share to existing A mount shooters, they are on a downwards slope and that is bad news.

There is much out there that is in direct competition that offers a better balanced choice and the wide choice offered by Canon and Nikon is significant.

About 6 weeks ago, I bought a Canon 5D for about £250 more than the A700 would have cost me. Now I accept that the Canon price was on special offer and the Canon 5D is an old camera but it still shows how far money can go and Sony need to position themselves in the market so the choice I faced makes me decide on Sony rather than Canon. Unless Sony make their body and lens prices more competitive, they are losing potential customers all the time.

I want to see Sony do well. I have an A mount system so what Sony do in the future is of interest to me. I also want to see them do well because competition for Canon and Niikon is a good thing and overall, we all benefit. Stating the obvious I know but it can't be stated enough.

Ed

Ehrik · Dec 21, 2007

Docno said:
Some people here have said that Phil and Simon have a Canikon bias.
Can't be sure of this, but there were a few statements in the review
that I found unnecessarily sarcastic and which hinted at Sony-bashing:
Re provision of MS slot... "(I'm sure there'll be a huge sigh of
relief from semi professional photographers that their SLR can now
accept the same slow, pricey memory cards as their PlayStation). "

Well, I for one appreciate a bit of humour here and there in the reviews,
and it will naturally often be at the manufacturers' expense.

Possibly Simon is bit more prone to it and he was involved in this review.

On MS, I was surprised they didn't test it in the performance section.

Docno said:
Then again, I haven't read recent Canon/Nikon reviews, so
maybe it's just the style here (in which case, I happily eat these
words).

Well straight off the top of my head I remember the constant nagging
about Canon's stubbornness regarding opening the memory card door
on Canon DSLRs. And the Direct Print button has been treated with
well deserved sarcasm many times. I'm sure there is more if one looks
specifically for it.

Just my two oere
Erik from Sweden
Merry Christmas and Happy ending to 2007!
photobucket.com/albums/v705/segersaell/krogstabryn-2.jpg

Ken_5D · Dec 21, 2007

ed209 said:
Anastigmat said:

The price of the A700 would probably need to come down if Sony
is serious about increasing market share.

Click to expand...

I think this is the most serious point of all. It is being made by so
many people and Sony's marketing team need to wake up to it.

At the A700's price, it main group of buyers is going to be existing
A mount shooters in need of an upgrade or a more current body. It is
unlikely to entice people new to the Sony system, especially when you
consider the small system backup that exists at the moment. If Sony
limit their market share to existing A mount shooters, they are on a
downwards slope and that is bad news.

There is much out there that is in direct competition that offers a
better balanced choice and the wide choice offered by Canon and Nikon
is significant.

About 6 weeks ago, I bought a Canon 5D for about £250 more than the
A700 would have cost me. Now I accept that the Canon price was on
special offer and the Canon 5D is an old camera but it still shows
how far money can go and Sony need to position themselves in the
market so the choice I faced makes me decide on Sony rather than
Canon. Unless Sony make their body and lens prices more competitive,
they are losing potential customers all the time.

I want to see Sony do well. I have an A mount system so what Sony do
in the future is of interest to me. I also want to see them do well
because competition for Canon and Niikon is a good thing and overall,
we all benefit. Stating the obvious I know but it can't be stated
enough.

Ed

I totally disagree.

Putting some of the UK pricing asside which doesn't alway make sense unless they just right now don't have many units for the UK to sell so are more interested in making top dollar than creating demand for units the UK was not allocated.

Sony is not interested in being the "discount" brand. This kind of thinking would have said Lexus if it wanted to increase market share quickly they should have started by selling thier cars less than ford. Problem is that was not thier goal to be known as the car that is cheaper than Ford.

This is a long-term strategy not a smash and grab.

If you read this forum I have been amazed by the number of people who had Nikon or Canon equipment that have started looking at Sony as an alterative with the A700. So your idea that Sony who already sold more A100s than KM did previous DSLRs is somehow only selling upgrade cameras to fussy A-mount owners it totally off also.

Pricing is only one way that one builds market share and it is often the most costly to long-term success.

You got a 5D for the price you did because it is OLD and soon to be dropped technology. Not a bad camera at all, but the build quality and features you will see in the replacement will make it clear why Canon has been discounting them. Also Canon is smart enough to see that the D300 and the A700 are selling and they thought they could as they did with you keep some share by selling off an aging camera for a major discount.

So for $500 / 250 pounds more you got a camera with fewer features than that the A700 but with FF..

This is what you didn't get with the CN5D that you would get with an A700:
Built in Flash
Built in Wireless flash
ISO 6400 option
SSS
2 extra focus points
one stop wider + - exposure compensation
5 FPS vs only 3 FPS with unlimited JPGS on UDMA cards
Dual memory slots (which saved me in Paris last week)
3 inch LCD with about higher resolution
Weather Seals
HDMI Out

IE if all that + $500 less in cost was worth FF.. great.. for me that doesn't really sound like a great bargain...

But people who buy end of life cycle technology when it is heavily discounted are an important part of the over all product sales strategy of any company. Because accounting wise they may have made as much off you as they did over the list price pre-orders where there was lots of R&D and Tooling cost to pay for.

But it would be bad management for Sony to price new models to attract a late cycle discount buyer.

------------
Ken - KM 5D (A700 Joy)
http://www.cascadephotoworks.com

Ken_5D · Dec 21, 2007

Docno said:
Some people here have said that Phil and Simon have a Canikon bias.
Can't be sure of this, but there were a few statements in the review
that I found unnecessarily sarcastic and which hinted at Sony-bashing:
Re provision of MS slot... "(I'm sure there'll be a huge sigh of
relief from semi professional photographers that their SLR can now
accept the same slow, pricey memory cards as their PlayStation). "
Re Sony's explanation of on-chip NR... "Below is how Sony makes this
all seem very simple and friendly using evil spiky noise bugs getting
mixed in with lovely golden balls of analog signal"
Re the processor... "Continuing Sony's habit of slapping a daft name
on every component is an all-new version of the Bionz image processor"
Re the viewfinder... "Note the 16:9 framing guide for those advanced
SLR users who prefer to view their pictures on the TV." [OK, now
maybe I'm being overly-sensitive with this one, but I don't see any
reason to specify 'advanced SLR users' in this specific statement]
Sure, it's nice to have some humour in a review, but some of these
(and other) statements could have been made in a more objective
manner. Then again, I haven't read recent Canon/Nikon reviews, so
maybe it's just the style here (in which case, I happily eat these
words). Glenn

--
Galleries: http://picasaweb.google.com.au/glennjude
Sony A700, SAL18-250mm, KM 11-18mm, 50mm F2.8 macro
Sony R1, F828, F717; Fuji F31fd; Minolta x-700

Nice Post...

Last week I am standing on narrow

The only thing that would have made my dual memory slots nice would have been auto switch.. but I was able to make a quick menu change and get my shots.

Any Pro-photographer that is not smart enough to at least keep a 2 GB back up MS in the A700 is stupid!!! And if Phil doesn't get that even in MS format that extra slot is a nice feature.. that is his problem not Sony's
------------
Ken - KM 5D (A700 Joy)
http://www.cascadephotoworks.com

Ken_5D · Dec 21, 2007

Barry Fitzgerald said:
Docno said:

Some people here have said that Phil and Simon have a Canikon bias.
Can't be sure of this, but there were a few statements in the review
that I found unnecessarily sarcastic and which hinted at Sony-bashing:

Click to expand...

Member said:

Re provision of MS slot... "(I'm sure there'll be a huge sigh of
relief from semi professional photographers that their SLR can now
accept the same slow, pricey memory cards as their PlayStation). "

Click to expand...

I am with phil on this one, I see no place for MS being honest, its
just slapped in there because its sony's own format. I would be
amazed if anyone went out and bought them over a CF card.

And that is because you an Phil are thinking from inside a llittle brand biggot box. If there was only MS that would be a realy issue and a deal breaker. But what the MS slot means is that I have dual memory slots and if you look a my other post on this section of the thread.. I am veyr glad that I always keep a 2GB MS in that slot at all times!!!

Wake up since it is added it is a feature.. not something to be sneared at. What other camera in this range has dual memory slots.?

Member said:
Member said:

Re Sony's explanation of on-chip NR... "Below is how Sony makes this
all seem very simple and friendly using evil spiky noise bugs getting
mixed in with lovely golden balls of analog signal"

Click to expand...

Well strange comment have to say...I think being critical of the NR
processing is enough.

Member said:

Re the processor... "Continuing Sony's habit of slapping a daft name
on every component is an all-new version of the Bionz image processor"

Click to expand...

I see no real point making a remark like that. Ok the name does
nothing for me, but then who cares?

What did Phil say that about the DigiC II processor etc. CLEAR unprofessional BIAS.

Member said:
Member said:

Re the viewfinder... "Note the 16:9 framing guide for those advanced
SLR users who prefer to view their pictures on the TV." [OK, now
maybe I'm being overly-sensitive with this one, but I don't see any
reason to specify 'advanced SLR users' in this specific statement]

Click to expand...

Well that one is not too bad. 16:9 is hardly a must have SLR
feature..but its ok I guess.

But it is not a take away it is his silly way to discount a feature that HIS beloved Canonikons don't have.. If you are shooting for 16:9 which is now a standard like 8x10 etc it is a nice feature that Sony brought in from thier high-end video cameras.

Member said:
Member said:

Sure, it's nice to have some humour in a review, but some of these
(and other) statements could have been made in a more objective
manner. Then again, I haven't read recent Canon/Nikon reviews, so
maybe it's just the style here (in which case, I happily eat these
words). Glenn

Click to expand...

Well some comments are out of line, I agree with you. There is a
sarcastic tone on some areas..which is not really called for. I was
more bothered by phil's refusal to accept that any camera other than
nikon has wireless flash, which is just misleading to the reader (its
listed in flash specs, but no mention elsewhere)

Is phil biased? Well if he isnt...he doesnt help convey that..

And I dont see the sarcastic comments on canikon reviews..so well,
you have a point.
--

We agree on this.. Phil is a guy with a camera passion that started a site that became a business. As often happens the transisiton from super enthusiast to professioanl business person is not always complete.

--
------------
Ken - KM 5D (A700 Joy)
http://www.cascadephotoworks.com

Barry Fitzgerald · Dec 21, 2007

Ken_5D said:
Nice Post...

Last week I am standing on narrow
the Champs Elysées, when stupid me the CF card is full!!! I am
actually having to be careful not to get my head clipped by tour bus
mirrors and lane splitting motor cycle riders. I really am not in a
position change cards.. and I had just jockeyed to the front the
island after some other snapshot takers were done.

The only thing that would have made my dual memory slots nice would
have been auto switch.. but I was able to make a quick menu change
and get my shots.

Any Pro-photographer that is not smart enough to at least keep a 2 GB
back up MS in the A700 is stupid!!! And if Phil doesn't get that
even in MS format that extra slot is a nice feature.. that is his
problem not Sony's

Well on the plus side you dont "have" to use the MS slot. And I doubt many will either.

MS is just sony's own format, I dont care for it much. As far as popular goes its not. SD and CF are the top two formats..everything else is a waste of space.

The only thing I am happy about, is that sony didnt try to just use MS on their SLR's..if they could have, they would have. But they know it would have got wholescale rejection from buyers.

I rather find the inclusion of the MS slot as a bit of waste of time. I suspect most others feel the same.

I will celebrate the death of XD and MS with a passion..really some companies need to just get with the universal formats.

--

Clint is on holiday! Soon to return! ;-)

Tapani Tarvainen · Dec 21, 2007

Falcon75 said:
Try to change the apperture and the shutter speed on the 40D without
taking your eye out of the view finder!!! AH!!! That would be nice!

Huh? I do it all the time.

Falcon75 said:
On the Alpha 700 that's a quick and natural operation that most
photographers use on Manual mode!

Strange. Reading the review I got the impression it is
done exactly same way in the Alpha as in Canon,
only the positions of the dials a different.
Which arrangement is better is probably more
a matter of getting used to than anything else;
I am by now so used to Canon way that it feels
quite natural.

Barry Fitzgerald · Dec 21, 2007

Ken_5D said:
And that is because you an Phil are thinking from inside a llittle
brand biggot box. If there was only MS that would be a realy issue
and a deal breaker. But what the MS slot means is that I have dual
memory slots and if you look a my other post on this section of the
thread.. I am veyr glad that I always keep a 2GB MS in that slot at
all times!!!

Nothing to do with brand, everything to do with "proprietary" formats. Olympus do the same with their lousy XD cards. I loathe both with a passion, sure if sony put an SD slot in there, that is much more like it..ta very much

But I dont have time for either of these two crappy formats..even fuji had to put SD on their cameras, Oly and Sony are just stick in the muds on this one.

SD slot...yup..nice. MS , no thanks.
--

Clint is on holiday! Soon to return! ;-)

jamesdak · Dec 21, 2007

Ken_5D said:
Barry Fitzgerald said:

Docno said:

Some people here have said that Phil and Simon have a Canikon bias.
Can't be sure of this, but there were a few statements in the review
that I found unnecessarily sarcastic and which hinted at Sony-bashing:

Click to expand...

Ken_5D said:

Re provision of MS slot... "(I'm sure there'll be a huge sigh of
relief from semi professional photographers that their SLR can now
accept the same slow, pricey memory cards as their PlayStation). "

Click to expand...

I am with phil on this one, I see no place for MS being honest, its
just slapped in there because its sony's own format. I would be
amazed if anyone went out and bought them over a CF card.

Click to expand...

And that is because you an Phil are thinking from inside a llittle
brand biggot box. If there was only MS that would be a realy issue
and a deal breaker. But what the MS slot means is that I have dual
memory slots and if you look a my other post on this section of the
thread.. I am veyr glad that I always keep a 2GB MS in that slot at
all times!!!

Wake up since it is added it is a feature.. not something to be
sneared at. What other camera in this range has dual memory slots.?

Ken_5D said:

Ken_5D said:

Re Sony's explanation of on-chip NR... "Below is how Sony makes this
all seem very simple and friendly using evil spiky noise bugs getting
mixed in with lovely golden balls of analog signal"

Click to expand...

Well strange comment have to say...I think being critical of the NR
processing is enough.

Ken_5D said:

Re the processor... "Continuing Sony's habit of slapping a daft name
on every component is an all-new version of the Bionz image processor"

Click to expand...

I see no real point making a remark like that. Ok the name does
nothing for me, but then who cares?

Click to expand...

What did Phil say that about the DigiC II processor etc. CLEAR
unprofessional BIAS.

Ken_5D said:

Ken_5D said:

Re the viewfinder... "Note the 16:9 framing guide for those advanced
SLR users who prefer to view their pictures on the TV." [OK, now
maybe I'm being overly-sensitive with this one, but I don't see any
reason to specify 'advanced SLR users' in this specific statement]

Click to expand...

Well that one is not too bad. 16:9 is hardly a must have SLR
feature..but its ok I guess.

Click to expand...

But it is not a take away it is his silly way to discount a feature
that HIS beloved Canonikons don't have.. If you are shooting for
16:9 which is now a standard like 8x10 etc it is a nice feature that
Sony brought in from thier high-end video cameras.

Ken_5D said:

Ken_5D said:

Sure, it's nice to have some humour in a review, but some of these
(and other) statements could have been made in a more objective
manner. Then again, I haven't read recent Canon/Nikon reviews, so
maybe it's just the style here (in which case, I happily eat these
words). Glenn

Click to expand...

Well some comments are out of line, I agree with you. There is a
sarcastic tone on some areas..which is not really called for. I was
more bothered by phil's refusal to accept that any camera other than
nikon has wireless flash, which is just misleading to the reader (its
listed in flash specs, but no mention elsewhere)

Is phil biased? Well if he isnt...he doesnt help convey that..

And I dont see the sarcastic comments on canikon reviews..so well,
you have a point.
--

Click to expand...

We agree on this.. Phil is a guy with a camera passion that started a
site that became a business. As often happens the transisiton from
super enthusiast to professioanl business person is not always
complete.

LOL, very few at this site are "professional" in my opinion. This (not just this forum but the whole site) is the biggest group of brand loyal closeminded folks that I have seen on the internet, is it not? Why are we surprised that Phil comes off that way??!!

Ken_5D said:
--
------------
Ken - KM 5D (A700 Joy)
http://www.cascadephotoworks.com

--
Long live the HMS Beagle

jamesdak · Dec 21, 2007

Ken_5D said:
Docno said:

Some people here have said that Phil and Simon have a Canikon bias.
Can't be sure of this, but there were a few statements in the review
that I found unnecessarily sarcastic and which hinted at Sony-bashing:
Re provision of MS slot... "(I'm sure there'll be a huge sigh of
relief from semi professional photographers that their SLR can now
accept the same slow, pricey memory cards as their PlayStation). "
Re Sony's explanation of on-chip NR... "Below is how Sony makes this
all seem very simple and friendly using evil spiky noise bugs getting
mixed in with lovely golden balls of analog signal"
Re the processor... "Continuing Sony's habit of slapping a daft name
on every component is an all-new version of the Bionz image processor"
Re the viewfinder... "Note the 16:9 framing guide for those advanced
SLR users who prefer to view their pictures on the TV." [OK, now
maybe I'm being overly-sensitive with this one, but I don't see any
reason to specify 'advanced SLR users' in this specific statement]
Sure, it's nice to have some humour in a review, but some of these
(and other) statements could have been made in a more objective
manner. Then again, I haven't read recent Canon/Nikon reviews, so
maybe it's just the style here (in which case, I happily eat these
words). Glenn

--
Galleries: http://picasaweb.google.com.au/glennjude
Sony A700, SAL18-250mm, KM 11-18mm, 50mm F2.8 macro
Sony R1, F828, F717; Fuji F31fd; Minolta x-700

Click to expand...

Nice Post...

Last week I am standing on narrow
the Champs Elysées, when stupid me the CF card is full!!! I am
actually having to be careful not to get my head clipped by tour bus
mirrors and lane splitting motor cycle riders. I really am not in a
position change cards.. and I had just jockeyed to the front the
island after some other snapshot takers were done.

Ok, but what would you have done back in the film days?? At least now we can shoot more than 36 exposures.

Ken_5D said:
The only thing that would have made my dual memory slots nice would
have been auto switch.. but I was able to make a quick menu change
and get my shots.

Hmm, totally right, if giving you the feature seems like they would have automated or at least allowed a one time menu setup to enable auto swithing when one is full.

Ken_5D said:
Any Pro-photographer that is not smart enough to at least keep a 2 GB
back up MS in the A700 is stupid!!! And if Phil doesn't get that
even in MS format that extra slot is a nice feature.. that is his
problem not Sony's

Nice feature I quess but since I've never had it...... But for that matter why not two CF's instead? I'd rather not carry different types of memory cards. But, I will admit this is a positive feature of the camera not negative. I would not mind having such a feature available to me, but just with the same type cards.

Ken_5D said:
------------
Ken - KM 5D (A700 Joy)
http://www.cascadephotoworks.com

--
Long live the HMS Beagle

liquid stereo · Dec 21, 2007

Its frickin extra! I.e. you don't have to use it.

Barry Fitzgerald said:
Ken_5D said:

And that is because you an Phil are thinking from inside a llittle
brand biggot box. If there was only MS that would be a realy issue
and a deal breaker. But what the MS slot means is that I have dual
memory slots and if you look a my other post on this section of the
thread.. I am veyr glad that I always keep a 2GB MS in that slot at
all times!!!

Click to expand...

Nothing to do with brand, everything to do with "proprietary"
formats. Olympus do the same with their lousy XD cards. I loathe both
with a passion, sure if sony put an SD slot in there, that is much
more like it..ta very much

But I dont have time for either of these two crappy formats..even
fuji had to put SD on their cameras, Oly and Sony are just stick in
the muds on this one.

SD slot...yup..nice. MS , no thanks.
--

Clint is on holiday! Soon to return! ;-)

--
Direct your eye right inward, and you'll find a thousand
regions in your mind Yet undiscovered. Travel them, and
be Expert in home-cosmography.
-H.D. Thoreau

jamesdak · Dec 21, 2007

??? meaning what???
--
Long live the HMS Beagle

Barry Fitzgerald · Dec 21, 2007

I am with phil on this one...

MS is more expensive than CF and SD..

Yeah I was soooo happy that my Mrs got me a sony phone, so I could spend twice as much on an M2 card, than a micro SD...yup twice the price, same capacity

Cheers! Wow..lets all jump on the dead format card bandwagon...

So maybe you lot can list all the companies that are using MS cards? Oh...lets see

1 SONY

Thats it..

Secure digital

Panasonic
Fuji
Samsung
Canon
Nikon
Kodak
Ricoh
Pentax
And every other minor brand as well

I find that list rather telling dont you? closed mind? Or closed format..you decide! ;-)

--

Clint is on holiday! Soon to return! ;-)

ed209 · Dec 21, 2007

Ken_5D said:
Putting some of the UK pricing asside which doesn't alway make sense
unless they just right now don't have many units for the UK to sell
so are more interested in making top dollar than creating demand for
units the UK was not allocated.

Sorry, but I really don't understand the point you are making there.

Ken_5D said:
Sony is not interested in being the "discount" brand. This kind of
thinking would have said Lexus if it wanted to increase market share
quickly they should have started by selling thier cars less than
ford. Problem is that was not thier goal to be known as the car that
is cheaper than Ford.

I didn't say Sony is interested in being a discount brand. You are comparing Lexus to Ford when Lexus should be compared to BMW or Mercedes for example.

Ken_5D said:
This is a long-term strategy not a smash and grab.

Where do you get smash and grab from? You really seem to be taking extremes here which makes it difficult to argue from a balanced view point.

Ken_5D said:
If you read this forum I have been amazed by the number of people who
had Nikon or Canon equipment that have started looking at Sony as an
alterative with the A700. So your idea that Sony who already sold
more A100s than KM did previous DSLRs is somehow only selling upgrade
cameras to fussy A-mount owners it totally off also.

Do you have quantifiable evidence for the number of people of who are actually buying the Sony system rather than just looking at it? Also, how you deduce that my comment was "totally off" escapes me because it is stating the obvious that Sony will be selling the majority of their cameras to existing A mount users. I did not state this was at the exclusion of new customers, I just said they were limiting it. Again, you jump to absurd conclusions.

Ken_5D said:
Pricing is only one way that one builds market share and it is often
the most costly to long-term success.

Which means? You need to explain what you mean here because I don't understand it.

Ken_5D said:
You got a 5D for the price you did because it is OLD and soon to be
dropped technology. Not a bad camera at all, but the build quality
and features you will see in the replacement will make it clear why
Canon has been discounting them.

No one knows what the Canon 5D replacement is yet, nor what the specs are. They might be better but Canon might pitch the replacement lower down. We just don't know. I also agreed that the Canon 5D is an old camera so you are not gaining anything in your argument by repeating that fact. What is fact is that it is still an extremely competent camera that will continue to produce excellent photographs for many years.

Ken_5D said:
So for $500 / 250 pounds more you got a camera with fewer features
than that the A700 but with FF..

It doesn't matter whether it has fewer features or more features, it is a question of the features I want in a camera.

Ken_5D said:
This is what you didn't get with the CN5D that you would get with an
A700:
Built in Flash

Not too bothered on this but I agree it would be nice to have on rare occasions. Generally though, for my photography a built in flash is not essential.

Ken_5D said:
Built in Wireless flash

Useful. I don't actually know how the Canon system works on this side.

Ken_5D said:
ISO 6400 option

Would never use it except in dire emergencies.

Ken_5D said:
SSS

This opens up the SSS v Lens IS debate. I prefer Lens IS because you can see how it is working and as my main lens is IS and the others are very short focal lengths, the lack of SSS is not an issue.

Ken_5D said:
2 extra focus points

And? How does that help? The Canon AF system works really well on the 5D and I use MF for most shots anyway.

Ken_5D said:
one stop wider + - exposure compensation

Agreed but this doesn't prevent me taking photos at all so no real loss.

Ken_5D said:
5 FPS vs only 3 FPS with unlimited JPGS on UDMA cards

If I wanted high FPS, I wouldn't have bought the EOS 5D so 5FPS or 3FPS is totally irrelevant.

Ken_5D said:
Dual memory slots (which saved me in Paris last week)

So I have a spare CF card in the bag. Am I losing out?

Ken_5D said:
3 inch LCD with about higher resolution

I only use the screen for checking composition and histograms. The 2.5 inch screen is perfectly OK for me. The 3 inch screen with higher resolution is hardly a deal breaker.

Ken_5D said:
Weather Seals

Of questionable value. Are the Sony lenses sealed too? Do Sony seal any of their lenses? Do I shot in bad weather conditions? No. Zero value to me.

Ken_5D said:
HDMI Out

Complete waste for me. No need of it.

If you really wanted to get a point over here, you should have mentioned dust removal system. The EOS 5D hasn't got one - that is a matter of concern for me and that is really the only plus point of the A700.

Ken_5D said:
IE if all that + $500 less in cost was worth FF.. great.. for me that
doesn't really sound like a great bargain...

Let's consider what else I get by buying the 5D instead of the A700:

All the benefits of FF which for me, are of high value.
Keying into the Canon system which offers lenses not provided by Sony and lenses that are of direct value to my type of photography.
The undisputed high IQ provided by the 5D.
Much more affordable and more widely available Canon system lenses and accessories.

You have taken my points about pricing and turned it into a comparison between the EOS 5D and the A700 specifications without pausing for breath and considering what I might actually want from a camera.

Let's focus back on the pricing matter which is where this started.

Ken_5D said:
But it would be bad management for Sony to price new models to
attract a late cycle discount buyer.

You refer to me as a late cycle buyer which is incorrect. I did not buy because it was late cycle, I bought because it was the camera I wanted and was affordable. However, leave that to one side. Please explain precisely what you mean by "bad management" because I am curious here.

Ed

narayana · Dec 21, 2007

What did you not notice? I'll tell you. The most uninspiring set of sample photographs, that's what. Nothing there to catch the eye or interest the viewer, boring, boring, boring. Much worse than usual, and the usual is not very good. That said, I am sure that some sets of Dpreview shots have sold thousands of machines, so the damning with faint praise, will, I hope, not refrain from really showing up publicly the faults of other cameras equally.

The A700 is 2x the size it needs to be. They can and should all be Oly 410 size. I think the "size matters" has got to manufacturers, dont you!. Its not even a full-frame sensor.

THese are huge bloatware buggy (D300) computers with lenses on them that have also got HUGE!. And HYPER-CHER, mes amis.

Perhaps psychologists in-house everywhere are working on our little grey cells a leetle tooo much, dont you think?

I am sure that when Pentax do Full-frame, they will remember how it was that they as Olympus, established their reputations, by making handy, comfortable and reliable machines.

The A700 has a higher resolution than any 12MP machine on the market, as does the A100 in its bracket, and because they understand how horrid the noise their sensor produces is, they have done what they think is necessary to get rid of its worst features.

But there IS as the review says, no advantage over the A100 effectively, and these days you are paying three times the price body-wise.

Its also as pug-ugly as a big Nikon or Canon. Like the E3 Olympus-embarassing!!!!

These are supposed to be miniature cameras you know. The A100 has proven no need to increase the size!!

The pixels get smaller but the bodies get bigger. Presumably they are all such sheep, such cowards design-wise that by the time they all get back to 35mm format sensors, we'll be expected to stagger around with D2X/D3/E3/1Ds size and weight machines.

Be my guest!

narayana

Ken_5D · Dec 21, 2007

ed209 said:
Ken_5D said:

Putting some of the UK pricing asside which doesn't alway make sense
unless they just right now don't have many units for the UK to sell
so are more interested in making top dollar than creating demand for
units the UK was not allocated.

Click to expand...

Word is Sony is building 20K units a month. Some of those are the EU no grip sensor version. Of that some get allocated to the UK. What is smarter?

Sell out at a lower price leaving profit on the table. Or sell for a higher price that just meets your goals for the region?

The typical consumer view on price is lower is always better and the competition prices is the key factor. Pricing is way more complex than that.

ed209 said:
ed209 said:

Sony is not interested in being the "discount" brand. This kind of
thinking would have said Lexus if it wanted to increase market share
quickly they should have started by selling thier cars less than
ford. Problem is that was not thier goal to be known as the car that
is cheaper than Ford.

Click to expand...

I didn't say Sony is interested in being a discount brand. You are
comparing Lexus to Ford when Lexus should be compared to BMW or
Mercedes for example.

I love my Ford.. and for years Ford was a leader in sales. Even though Toyota is usually more expensive they have continued to take share by means of product design and good marketing.. not discounting..

ed209 said:
ed209 said:

This is a long-term strategy not a smash and grab.

Click to expand...

Where do you get smash and grab from? You really seem to be taking
extremes here which makes it difficult to argue from a balanced view
point.

I keep hearing the A700 price is wrong from some people. Yet it keeps getting value scores that are in line with the 40D etc. Discounts to gain early market share are not a good long term strategy. mostly because the people who buy cheap will never upgrade at the price range you really want to be at so you create years of market confusion.

ed209 said:
ed209 said:

If you read this forum I have been amazed by the number of people who
had Nikon or Canon equipment that have started looking at Sony as an
alterative with the A700. So your idea that Sony who already sold
more A100s than KM did previous DSLRs is somehow only selling upgrade
cameras to fussy A-mount owners it totally off also.

Click to expand...

Do you have quantifiable evidence for the number of people of who are
actually buying the Sony system rather than just looking at it? Also,
how you deduce that my comment was "totally off" escapes me because
it is stating the obvious that Sony will be selling the majority of
their cameras to existing A mount users. I did not state this was at
the exclusion of new customers, I just said they were limiting it.
Again, you jump to absurd conclusions.

do you have any numbers to say that Sony's only market is current A-mount users?

All I can go buy is more "I sold my Canikon for the Sony or even I am thinking about selling my Canikon.." posts than we have seen in the KM/Sony forums since I joined.

ed209 said:
ed209 said:

Pricing is only one way that one builds market share and it is often
the most costly to long-term success.

Click to expand...

Which means? You need to explain what you mean here because I don't
understand it.

If you get people to buy with lower price then the market base you created is a price concious base that will always insist that future offerings be priced lower. If you take your time and attract people who will pay more for your feature set then you build a market base and brand impression that will let you make more over long-term. Early market share by agressive pricing if you don't need capital to survive is not a good way to build share.

ed209 said:
ed209 said:

You got a 5D for the price you did because it is OLD and soon to be
dropped technology. Not a bad camera at all, but the build quality
and features you will see in the replacement will make it clear why
Canon has been discounting them.

Click to expand...

No one knows what the Canon 5D replacement is yet, nor what the specs
are. They might be better but Canon might pitch the replacement lower
down. We just don't know. I also agreed that the Canon 5D is an old
camera so you are not gaining anything in your argument by repeating
that fact. What is fact is that it is still an extremely competent
camera that will continue to produce excellent photographs for many
years.

ed209 said:

So for $500 / 250 pounds more you got a camera with fewer features
than that the A700 but with FF..

Click to expand...

It doesn't matter whether it has fewer features or more features, it
is a question of the features I want in a camera.

ed209 said:

This is what you didn't get with the CN5D that you would get with an
A700:
Built in Flash

Click to expand...

Not too bothered on this but I agree it would be nice to have on rare
occasions. Generally though, for my photography a built in flash is
not essential.

--
------------
Ken - KM 5D (A700 Joy)
http://www.cascadephotoworks.com

Ken_5D · Dec 21, 2007

ed209 said:
ed209 said:

Built in Wireless flash

Click to expand...

Useful. I don't actually know how the Canon system works on this side.

ed209 said:

ISO 6400 option

Click to expand...

Would never use it except in dire emergencies.

ed209 said:

SSS

Click to expand...

This opens up the SSS v Lens IS debate. I prefer Lens IS because you
can see how it is working and as my main lens is IS and the others
are very short focal lengths, the lack of SSS is not an issue.

ed209 said:

2 extra focus points

Click to expand...

And? How does that help? The Canon AF system works really well on the
5D and I use MF for most shots anyway.

ed209 said:

one stop wider + - exposure compensation

Click to expand...

Agreed but this doesn't prevent me taking photos at all so no real loss.

ed209 said:

5 FPS vs only 3 FPS with unlimited JPGS on UDMA cards

Click to expand...

If I wanted high FPS, I wouldn't have bought the EOS 5D so 5FPS or
3FPS is totally irrelevant.

ed209 said:

Dual memory slots (which saved me in Paris last week)

Click to expand...

So I have a spare CF card in the bag. Am I losing out?

If you are in a place where opening the bag and changing cards is not good like.. I was last week or maybe in a dusty or damp place where opening the door will breal the seal around the memory slots. then yest.. but since the 5D isn't seald it is in the bad when it gets a little dusty or damp

ed209 said:
ed209 said:

3 inch LCD with about higher resolution

Click to expand...

I only use the screen for checking composition and histograms. The
2.5 inch screen is perfectly OK for me. The 3 inch screen with higher
resolution is hardly a deal breaker.

ed209 said:

Weather Seals

Click to expand...

Of questionable value. Are the Sony lenses sealed too? Do Sony seal
any of their lenses? Do I shot in bad weather conditions? No. Zero
value to me.

ed209 said:

HDMI Out

Click to expand...

Complete waste for me. No need of it.

If you really wanted to get a point over here, you should have
mentioned dust removal system. The EOS 5D hasn't got one - that is a
matter of concern for me and that is really the only plus point of
the A700.

ed209 said:

IE if all that + $500 less in cost was worth FF.. great.. for me that
doesn't really sound like a great bargain...

Click to expand...

Let's consider what else I get by buying the 5D instead of the A700:

All the benefits of FF which for me, are of high value.

Keying into the Canon system which offers lenses not provided by

Sony and lenses that are of direct value to my type of photography.

The undisputed high IQ provided by the 5D.

Some might dispute it compared to newer offerings...

ed209 said:
Much more affordable and more widely available Canon system lenses

and accessories.

REALLY how much is an IS 50mm 1.7, or and IS 70-300 APO lens? Mine cost a total of $300 for the pair

ed209 said:
You have taken my points about pricing and turned it into a
comparison between the EOS 5D and the A700 specifications without
pausing for breath and considering what I might actually want from a
camera.

You didn't read.. I said if all the missing features and more cash is worth the value of FF which then great.. and lots of what you just wrote after talking about price seems to be more about system preference you like Canon and Sony is not going to start making IS lenses etc. so have fun and stop pretending price would have changed your mind.. unless all your pro Canon points are just for debate.

ed209 said:
Let's focus back on the pricing matter which is where this started.

ed209 said:

But it would be bad management for Sony to price new models to
attract a late cycle discount buyer.

Click to expand...

You refer to me as a late cycle buyer which is incorrect. I did not
buy because it was late cycle, I bought because it was the camera I
wanted and was affordable. However, leave that to one side. Please
explain precisely what you mean by "bad management" because I am
curious here.

But it became the camera you wanted and considerd affordable because it was in an end of life pricing model. Lots of people thought it was affordable when it was $3200 USD. Why didn't you buy then.. it was the same camera.. I would guess because you are a late cycle price buyer. nothing wrong with that.. but for the same money you could have had a D300 and In my mind it is a way better deal than an aging CN5D and has the large systema and VR lenses etc.

------------
Ken - KM 5D (A700 Joy)
http://www.cascadephotoworks.com

ed209 · Dec 21, 2007

Ken_5D said:
The typical consumer view on price is lower is always better and the
competition prices is the key factor. Pricing is way more complex
than that.

Of course it is but if your marketing people are putting the base price too high, people will be put off too early in the evaluation stage and look at the alternatives.

Ken_5D said:
I love my Ford.. and for years Ford was a leader in sales. Even
though Toyota is usually more expensive they have continued to take
share by means of product design and good marketing.. not
discounting..

Which means in summary that Toyota make better cars. If your product is demonstratively superior, you can afford to charge the price premium. However, I cannot think of any key aspect of the A700 or the entire Sony system that is demonstratively superior to the competition that justifies the high prices.

Ken_5D said:
I keep hearing the A700 price is wrong from some people. Yet it
keeps getting value scores that are in line with the 40D etc.

The only scores that really count are the number of purchases made. Forget review scores, it is people putting down their money that counts. I don't know the accurate figures for market share. If they are made public, I'd like to know them.

Ken_5D said:
do you have any numbers to say that Sony's only market is current
A-mount users?
All I can go buy is more "I sold my Canikon for the Sony or even I am
thinking about selling my Canikon.." posts than we have seen in the
KM/Sony forums since I joined.

And whilst doing that, don't forget to consider the number of people switching from KM/Sony to the other brands as well. That is happening.

Ken_5D said:
If you get people to buy with lower price then the market base you
created is a price concious base that will always insist that future
offerings be priced lower. If you take your time and attract people
who will pay more for your feature set then you build a market base
and brand impression that will let you make more over long-term.
Early market share by agressive pricing if you don't need capital to
survive is not a good way to build share.

If Sony were allowing dealers to price competitively, we would have seen a major street-price reduction on the A700. One dealer tried but got forced to step back in line. This is all that is needed to get the price down. Sony can keep the RRP at the same level but the dealers can fight it out. This wont conflict with your point above.

Ed

ed209 · Dec 21, 2007

Ken_5D said:
If you are in a place where opening the bag and changing cards is not
good like.. I was last week or maybe in a dusty or damp place where
opening the door will breal the seal around the memory slots. then
yest.. but since the 5D isn't seald it is in the bad when it gets a
little dusty or damp

This is still a very minor point. At some stage you are going to have to open the door on the A700 as well. It is just a question of when that happens.

Ken_5D said:
Some might dispute it compared to newer offerings...

I would be very interested in knowing whcih these are. From the reviews and comments I've read on DPR and elsewhere, the EOS 5D is still the one to beat.

Ken_5D said:
REALLY how much is an IS 50mm 1.7, or and IS 70-300 APO lens? Mine
cost a total of $300 for the pair

Have a look at the 70-200 f2.8 zooms for a shock. The Sony is nearly 50% more expensive.

Ken_5D said:
so have fun and stop pretending price would have changed
your mind.. unless all your pro Canon points are just for debate.

"Stop pretending"? I really don't know how you can sit there and much such an insulting statement. I would never presume to make such comments, especially for someone I have never met. The high price of the A700 and the low price of the EOS 5D were both critical factors in my decision. Don't tell me how I buy cameras in future please.

I used my example of buying the 5D insteed of the A700 as an example of a sale Sony lost because they have priced the A700 too high. My "pro-canon" points were in direct response to the comparison you started, not because I was praising Canon or anything like that (I actually have little concern over the brand, it is what the camera does that matters to me).

Had the A700 been about £150 cheaper, I would have gone for it but given its high price and the extremely high price of some Sony lenses, my instinct was to diversify so I am not trapped by Sony's pricing regime in the future. Sony have sent out signals for the long term by their current pricing. Those signals are alarm bells to me that warn of perpetual high prices and yet, despite the A700 being a really good camera, there is still nothing in the Sony system that justifies those high prices.

It isn't just about the prices now, it is also about the prices in the future and how they will be positioned. If Sony establish themselves on a price premium, will that change? Will they become more directly competitive with their prices? My instinct says "no", hence my decision to put my eggs in two baskets, not one.

Ed

AgentWD40 · Dec 21, 2007

WaltKnapp said:
Go read his tiny sentence in the 40D review where he reports that
Canon has noise reduction in the raw and no off switch for it. It's
not just slight changes in words, it's major changes in emphasis.

Can you point me at this?

I've had a look but cannot find it. It must be small!

EDIT : OK, I think I found it on the second time through.

This page - http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos40d/page19.asp

--QUOTE--

It's clear that even when the EOS 40D has its 'High ISO noise reduction' option disabled (as it is by default) there is still some noise reduction being applied by the camera.
--UNQUOTE--

Is that the one you're referring to?

Tepid "Overall Conclusion" for the a700 from Phil Askey & Simon Joinson

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