K10D - ?% Image Quality Improvement after Firm Updates?

IMHO this camera would have been "Hall of Fame" material if it wasn't for certain IQ niggles. I truly love the design of the camera but I know the review here on DPReview is quite old and there have been "significant?" updates I'd just like to know if any at the current version the K10D can match the image quality of other cameras like the D40X, D80 etc etc... In RAW mode of course. Thanks.

It's been awhile since I've read the review here, but I don't remember anything in the review that berated the K10D's RAW performance. The IQ niggles highlighted in the DPreview article about the K10D were mostly related to JPEG's, and how they're sharpened in-camera. RAW is different, it's up to your raw processor, and any post processing you do after that to add sharpening.

There is the issue of VPN, but it's usually a non-issue, until you really start pushing your shadows, particularly with high-ISO shots.

In short, the K10D is a hall-of-famer, and its image quality is at least on par with its competition, in RAW mode.

The review does not berate the K10's RAW performance. It uses the good RAW performance to highlight how cr*ppy the in-camera's JPEG processing is. I actually like the camera more because of that, don't care about JPEG at all.

In the resolution charts, the K10D CLEARLY is not on par. Have the issues with moire etc aliasing been resolved?

Arkady Ribkin said:

I'd just like to know if any at the current
version the K10D can match the image quality of other cameras like
the D40X, D80 etc etc... In RAW mode of course.

Click to expand...

I must have totally missed the point.

I thought the K10D already matched if not exceeded "the image quality of other cameras like the D40X, D80 etc etc... " since conception.

Who said it didn't match the IQ of other cameras?

Why would anyone have to wait for any version?

-- SOldBear

Actually this topic has been debated on this forum, and the general answer is:

The Normal JPEG processing mode of the K10D is "Natural" mode. This applies, NO sharpening, contrast or saturation modifications to the JPEG file, and the photos can look a bit flat and lacking in vibrancy.

The other selectable mode is "Bright". This DOES change the sharpness, contrast and saturation, and increases the vibrancy or punch of a photo.

All other camera makers use the equivalent of "Bright" mode for in-camera processing of their JPEG files. So if you want to get your JPEG files looking like those from other cameras you should set "Bright" mode as the default.

Pentax set the Normal mode to "Natural" for the K10D so that JPEG files are unaltered, apart from compression effects, and the photographer can then get maximum quality from the photo by post-processing it themselves. Pentax did this because they are photographers and are interested in the highest image quality possible from a K10D, which was designed for serious photographers.

The K100D on the other had has a different target audience, so the Normal JPEG mode is "Bright".

Regards

Chris Stone

Arkady Ribkin said:

IMHO this camera would have been "Hall of Fame" material if it wasn't
for certain IQ niggles. I truly love the design of the camera but I
know the review here on DPReview is quite old and there have been
"significant?" updates I'd just like to know if any at the current
version the K10D can match the image quality of other cameras like
the D40X, D80 etc etc... In RAW mode of course. Thanks.

Click to expand...

Arkady Ribkin said:

In the resolution charts, the K10D CLEARLY is not on par. Have the
issues with moire etc aliasing been resolved?

Click to expand...

Are we talking about http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/PentaxK10D/page24.asp ?

If so, I believe these are comparison of jpegs from the cameras, "The chart is shot at a full range of apertures and the sharpest image selected. Studio light, cameras set to aperture priority (optimum aperture selected), image parameters default". The "image parameters default" seem to indicate jpeg doesn't it?

Thank you
Russell

Arkady Ribkin said:

In the resolution charts, the K10D CLEARLY is not on par. Have the
issues with moire etc aliasing been resolved?

Click to expand...

The K10 was not designed to shoot resolution charts, it was designed to take photographs - hopefully to be printed. They may have made decisions that pixel-peepers don't like, but fortunately many people have other uses for their work. Use a good lens, good technique, and you'll get great real-world results, as many on this forum can attest.

--
http://www.pixelstatic.com

Gary Martin said:

The K10 was not designed to shoot resolution charts, it was designed
to take photographs - hopefully to be printed. They may have made
decisions that pixel-peepers don't like, but fortunately many people
have other uses for their work. Use a good lens, good technique, and
you'll get great real-world results, as many on this forum can attest.

Click to expand...

I agree 100%, well said.

--
Pentax K100D Super
Pentax DA 18-55 and DA 50-200 ED
http://www.pbase.com/metalfab/

Arkady Ribkin said:

The review does not berate the K10's RAW performance. It uses the
good RAW performance to highlight how cr*ppy the in-camera's JPEG
processing is. I actually like the camera more because of that, don't
care about JPEG at all.

In the resolution charts, the K10D CLEARLY is not on par. Have the
issues with moire etc aliasing been resolved?

Click to expand...

Well, this is a change! We usually get beginners who don't understand about "default setting" jpegs.

As for the PS converted RAWs, there is more moire and jaggies than on the competion. This also gives a higher resolution. This is all due to the AA filter over the CCD. This physical filter cannot be altered by a new FW update. No reviewer has complained about it that I can think of.

Different converters give different results. I don't remember offhand which gives the least moire.

--
cheers!

Gunn

-- Get a big lens and get closer™.

http://www.dpreview.pentaxistDS.photoshare.co.nz
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FAQ: http://www.pentaxuser.org/tiki-index.php

Awards galore, reviewers praising the high quality RAW abilities, better than most others, but you've been out of touch with the world for the last year (Asylum?) and didn't know any of this .......right? So you come over to the Pentax forum and ask us why the 10D is lousy? You didn't learn much in your time away from reality, did you?

'This is more serious than I thought.....but it is still fun!
http://www.pbase.com/rupertdog Take a look- It's Free!

with regards to the dpreview res. charts its my understanding that the test is done with jpegs for whatever reason... if you are looking for the best of the best detail resolution then you should consider investing in the best glass as each sensor (of similar design) is so similar in their resolutions that its the glass that will make the difference not the raw processing
--
Mike from Canada

'I like to think so far outside the box that it would require a telephoto lens just to see the box!' ~ 'My Quote '



http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?sort_order=views%20DESC&first_this_page=0&page_limit=121&&emailsearch=mighty_mike88%40hotmail.com&thumbnails=

I'm not here to start arguments with fanboys.

I like the camera and I just wante to know why those resolution charts look so bad. I don't understand if it's just 'default' settings or not...of course "in the field" none of this matters, what matters the most is being able to make timely adjustments and having easy access to settings. However, there is a reason for shooting resolution charts... It's not going to be the 'deciding factor' in most cases when a person choses a camera but it helps a potential buyer to understand certain things about the sensor and how technologies are implemented.

In order to take good photos I want to acquaint myself with whichever flaws the sensor has and stick to a type of photography that doesn't suit the hardware. Perhaps I'm being overly technical I can't help it - please don't stone me to death because of that. I drool over the K10D as a gadget - if the issue in question is caused by seriously conservative default settings and can be tweaked to perfection by a fellow who can find his way around, that's all you needed to say.

I can assure you Arkady the only limit to this camera is this adjustment of the nut behind the view finder!
--
Regards Dean - Capturing Creation

the sensor itself has flaws when seriously underexposing then bringing the values up in PP most camera brands have one issue or another during this process, there are also those who find VPN (Vertical pattern noise) at high ISOs however not everyone has seen this... otherwise the sensor is the same as the D80, and A100 and the big difference is the AA filters in front of them with the K10D having only a horizontal AA filter type appearently its vertical resolution is rather quite good despite what dpreview shows (check the res values of the lenses at photozone.de) but as a result of a weak AA filter you are more likely to get jaggies... jpegs, i use them mostly unlike many here, but i am a good post processor so whatever the camera gives me is always enough to work with to get great results... as for RAW well i could get equal or even better results... the jpeg processing does have a very weak amount of sharpening but that only means that the image will never be oversharpened, it also has weak NR allowing for more detail with more noise. not sure what else i can tell you unless you ask specific questions.
--
Mike from Canada

'I like to think so far outside the box that it would require a telephoto lens just to see the box!' ~ 'My Quote '



http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?sort_order=views%20DESC&first_this_page=0&page_limit=121&&emailsearch=mighty_mike88%40hotmail.com&thumbnails=

Getting somewhere at last! THANK YOU for the last two posts. You guys hit the nail on the head. I'm partially to blame for speaking in morse code. I'll be happy to do pp whenever necessary. Everything turned out as I expected and I appreciate your feedback. Nobody recommended the Pentax to me, I didn't even read a single review first, I just did a simple specs search and got a home run. This is indeed a remarkable piece of equipment and I congratulate you K10D owners for having the wit to see past the marketing of the bigger boys.

Arkady Ribkin said:

I'm not here to start arguments with fanboys.

Click to expand...

When not looking for an argument, try not using the word fanboy.

Arkady Ribkin said:

I like the camera and I just wante to know why those resolution
charts look so bad. I don't understand if it's just 'default'
settings or not...of course "in the field" none of this matters, what
matters the most is being able to make timely adjustments and having
easy access to settings. However, there is a reason for shooting
resolution charts... It's not going to be the 'deciding factor' in
most cases when a person choses a camera but it helps a potential
buyer to understand certain things about the sensor and how
technologies are implemented.

Click to expand...

Arkady, you stated in another post that you weren't really interested in JPEG performance but only in raw image output. As others have stated, the resolution charts as shown as in the final comparison page of the review on page 24 of the review on this website are JPEG outputs, and admittedly aren't as clear as from some other competing cameras, partly due to the lack of edge definition due to both the demosiacing algorithm and the sharpening algorithm used by the K10D. However, if you look at the raw image resolution chart from Adobe Photoshop ACR as shown on page 13 at:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/pentaxk10d/page13.asp

as per the following image:



I don't think there is anything to complain about as far as resolution goes, as this shows that extinction resolution is as high as possible for an image that is 2592 pixels high. As to colour shift moire due to not having an strong antialiasing filter, that is the cost of having this high resolution capability, and will only occur in a small percentage of images, even without post processing to reduce it.

Regards, GordonBGood

Thanks.

Rupert60 said:

Awards galore, reviewers praising the high quality RAW abilities,
better than most others, but you've been out of touch with the world
for the last year (Asylum?) and didn't know any of this .......right?
So you come over to the Pentax forum and ask us why the 10D is lousy?
You didn't learn much in your time away from reality, did you?

'This is more serious than I thought.....but it is still fun!
http://www.pbase.com/rupertdog Take a look- It's Free!

Click to expand...

Dammnitt I hate mine too!!!! ;-)

Arkady Ribkin said:

In the resolution charts, the K10D CLEARLY is not on par. Have the
issues with moire etc aliasing been resolved?

Click to expand...

The RAW has higher resolution than the competition, partly because of a weaker anti-alias filter which gives higher resolution. This has been confirmed in tests in swedish magazines - FOTO, Ljud & Bild, and others. Higher resolution in RAW than Nikon D200 and D80, Canon 400D, Sony A100 and others.

If you have a stronger anti-alias filter then the resolution of the camera would drop.
--
Take care
R
http://www.flickr.com/photos/raphaelmabo