Photoshop - on the cheap!

Richard C · Apr 25, 2002

nw said:
1. Someone in a well paid job enrols in an hour-a-week course to
get a cheap version of Photoshop, thus depriving Adobe of $500 of
revenue on their intellectual property.
2. Someone in a well paid job downloads a pirate copy of Photoshop
from the internet, thus depriving Adobe of $700 of revenue on their
intellectual property.

Now I know one is legal and one is illegal, but I would argue that
these are morally identical actions, and it is inconsistent to
endorse one and not the other. Does anyone agree/disagree?

Justme said:

In Canada, what some people do is enroll in a college or university
night course (Photoshop or any other course). They get a student
card. With the student card you get big discounts on software at
the schools bookstore. PS6 sells for around $1,000(?) Cdn. With
the student discount you can probably get it for $350-400? Not
sure.

Click to expand...

When I saw the title "The ethics of piracy" I thought it might be a reference to Adobe's pricing policy. For Adobe to charge more for a CD of Photoshop than Canon does for a complete G2 (Australian prices) is unconscionable and the result of Adobe's (and other software manufacturers, notably Micro$oft) lack of ethics is rampant piracy - they have only themselves to blame.

Richard C · Apr 25, 2002

mp,

Paul's response from Adobe seems to imply that buying & selling 2nd hand software is legal (I certainly thought it was). What Paul C did, and Simon the pilot was asking about, is legal use of Adobe's products and although I'm sure we all sympathise with you, they don't deserve to be blamed for your redundancy.

Certainly piracy deprives Adobe of income, but I suspect that there are many thousands, more maybe millions of consumers, like me, who recognise that PS is the best around but can't justify the shattering price so use a slightly less capable altenative at a small fraction of the price. If PS6 cost around $A400-500 I, and others, would probably buy & use it and Adobe would have our money.

Adobe's directors have made their decision - high prices, low volumes, pare down the workforce, use the justice system to protect their revenue (see http://www.cybercrime.gov/niemi_indict.htm ) instead of lower prices, higher volumes, less incentive to piracy, more workforce stability. They obviously think they can make more money the first way, they'd call it "business". I think it's unwise and probably unsustainable in the long term. But then, when the chickens DO come home to roost, the present Board will probably have retired.

mp said:
Thanks to folks like you---I was part of the reduction in force at
Adobe.

I love to visit these forums for tips on my canon, but this really
offends and upsets me to read this.

I'm even too angry to address this further...

PaulC said:

simon the pilot said:

Dear List,

I would like to get a copy of Photoshop for manipulating my gig.
pics. but money is very tight at the moment!

Can anyone recommend a place (UK) where I can maybe buy a previous
version of Photoshop at a discount?

Thanks

Simon

Click to expand...

I purchased an old Phtoshop version on Ebay for 50 $ - it was
version 2.5 for MacIntosh. I then called Adobe, and upgraded it to
version 6.0 for 150 $. I called them beforehand to make sure that
this is allowed.

Paul.

Click to expand...

Justme · Apr 25, 2002

Leezah said:
nw said:

This is just a bit an ethical question, and isn't meant to
criticise anyone in particular, but here we go. Which of the
following is morally acceptable:

1. Someone in a well paid job enrols in an hour-a-week course to
get a cheap version of Photoshop, thus depriving Adobe of $500 of
revenue on their intellectual property.

Click to expand...

It's legal. No one is doing anything wrong here. If you're entitled, then you are.

Leezah said:
Leezah said:

2. Someone in a well paid job downloads a pirate copy of Photoshop
from the internet, thus depriving Adobe of $700 of revenue on their
intellectual property.

Click to expand...

It is illegal to do this.

Leezah said:
Leezah said:

Now I know one is legal and one is illegal, but I would argue that
these are morally identical actions, and it is inconsistent to
endorse one and not the other. Does anyone agree/disagree?

Click to expand...

Is it morally wrong for a rich person to collect an old age pension which every eligible citizen is entitled to? Of course not.

Leezah said:
Leezah said:

Justme said:

In Canada, what some people do is enroll in a college or university
night course (Photoshop or any other course). They get a student
card. With the student card you get big discounts on software at
the schools bookstore. PS6 sells for around $1,000(?) Cdn. With
the student discount you can probably get it for $350-400? Not
sure.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

David G · Apr 25, 2002

Richard C said:
When I saw the title "The ethics of piracy" I thought it might be a
reference to Adobe's pricing policy. For Adobe to charge more for
a CD of Photoshop than Canon does for a complete G2 (Australian
prices) is unconscionable and the result of Adobe's (and other
software manufacturers, notably Micro$oft) lack of ethics is
rampant piracy - they have only themselves to blame.

Very well said

nw · Apr 26, 2002

I think peoples divergence of views on issues like this is the reason that the industry hasn't done more to protect its intellectual property (via program activation etc). So in the end we have different types of people:

1. People who pay the price asked by adobe because they think it is worth it (can't complain).

2. People who use pirate software because they think the software isn't worth the full price (can't complain)

3. Adobe stockholders who have seen a 30% return on equity in the past five years (can't complain)

4. People who find piracy unethical, but can't justify paying the price charged by Adobe (probably the victims in all of this).

Hope not to many of you are 4's.

Regards,
Neil.

RSStockdale · Apr 26, 2002

DigiGuy said:
What are the differences between PhotoShop and PhotoElement?

Go to the Adobe site. They've got a good comparison between the 2. That's what I did before deciding to get PS Elements.

Kimbly · Apr 26, 2002

nw said:
This is just a bit an ethical question, and isn't meant to
criticise anyone in particular, but here we go. Which of the
following is morally acceptable:

1. Someone in a well paid job enrols in an hour-a-week course to
get a cheap version of Photoshop, thus depriving Adobe of $500 of
revenue on their intellectual property.

Um, is it more morally acceptable for someone with a job that pays very little and really can't afford the $600 program to do the same?

jamieo · Apr 26, 2002

DigiGuy said:
Is that capable with Windows XP Pro?

I should think so.

Jamie

nw · Apr 26, 2002

Hi Kimbly

It all depends on how you look at the world.

To me it would be OK. This is because the policy (known in economics textbooks as price discrimination) is directed at selling products at a lower price to people who can't afford the full price. The student criteria is just a screening mechanism that acts as a proxy for people who can't afford the full price.

My point about getting the student card when you are highly paid is that it is done with the intent of fraudulently misprepresenting financial status.

There are no rights in ethics though, just shades of wrong.

Regards,
Neil

Kimbly said:
Um, is it more morally acceptable for someone with a job that pays
very little and really can't afford the $600 program to do the same?

GANKS · Apr 26, 2002

I'm sorry you lost your job but please, while you were an Adobe employee you could buy the full version of PS 6 for $40 so quit your whining! I'm sure the reason all these software companies are having layoffs have nothing to do with the economy, 9/11, slowdown in tech spending, .com bust and are soley related to software piracy.

So now I am curious in seeing the difference between 6.01 and 7. Is it unethical to download 7 (from limewire, etc) to try it out before buying if you have a legit version of 6? I know there is a discount to upgrade if you have previous versions. But would like to try it first.

mp said:
Lovely.

Thanks to folks like you---I was part of the reduction in force at
Adobe.

I love to visit these forums for tips on my canon, but this really
offends and upsets me to read this.

I'm even too angry to address this further...

Kimbly · Apr 26, 2002

What about a highly paid college professor type, who would qualify for the education discounted price by Adobe's own rules? He/she really COULD afford the software, but if Adobe is offering it to them at a discounted rate, it seems it would be silly to pay more!?

I am not currently a student, though I will be in the fall. I might buy the software then for ~$300 US, though I could buy it now since everyone in my immediate family could qualify for the education discount. The difference between $600 and $300 definitely makes a humongous difference in the software being "pricey, but worth a splurge" and "way out of my reach" for me.

nw said:
It all depends on how you look at the world.

To me it would be OK. This is because the policy (known in
economics textbooks as price discrimination) is directed at selling
products at a lower price to people who can't afford the full
price. The student criteria is just a screening mechanism that acts
as a proxy for people who can't afford the full price.

My point about getting the student card when you are highly paid is
that it is done with the intent of fraudulently misprepresenting
financial status.

There are no rights in ethics though, just shades of wrong.

Regards,
Neil

Kimbly said:

Um, is it more morally acceptable for someone with a job that pays
very little and really can't afford the $600 program to do the same?

Click to expand...

Erik Stiegler · Apr 26, 2002

The ethical thing to do would be to wait for Adobe to post the test drive version of 7 for download, and preview it.

GANKS said:
So now I am curious in seeing the difference between 6.01 and 7.
Is it unethical to download 7 (from limewire, etc) to try it out
before buying if you have a legit version of 6? I know there is a
discount to upgrade if you have previous versions. But would like
to try it first.

HuNan · Apr 26, 2002

mp said:
Thanks to folks like you---I was part of the reduction in force at
Adobe.

I love to visit these forums for tips on my canon, but this really
offends and upsets me to read this.

I'm even too angry to address this further...

I just read that Adobe's earnings are way up! I guess they just did not wish to share the good fortune with all their workers, and thus you are let go.

mp · Apr 26, 2002

pse doesn't support cmyk , which unless you're going to do print production work you won't miss.

the curves feature was removed, however, the target user base didn't even know how to use curves.

you also don't have access to the channel operations.

a few features were added: red eye removal, custom stamps, color cast removal (which is now in ps7), recipies (these are guides that walk you through a process), the ability to stich photos together to create a montage as well as a panorama.

pse is not a paired down version of ps. a lot of time was spent gathering data on what features the target user wanted as well as what features they had no idea how to use in ps. it is a great alternative to the more expensive ps with nearly all of the features that most users will need or want. it has an intended user base. most prosumers will appreciate that pse does what they need, while ps is targeted more toward the professional user.

RSStockdale said:
RSStockdale said:

What are the differences between PhotoShop and PhotoElement?

Click to expand...

Go to the Adobe site. They've got a good comparison between the 2.
That's what I did before deciding to get PS Elements.

--
-------------
mp

colsmith · Apr 28, 2002

simon the pilot said:
Thanks to all who replied.

I will get a copy of Photoshop Elements (legitimately!) and see how
I do with that.

Excellent choice - form both the technical and the ethical viewpoints!

I have been evaluating the trial versions of Elements and PSP, its a close call but I think I'll go with elements.

Now for my little rave, not addressed to you Simon, but it was brought up in this thread -

My my ethics regarding software are a little lose, I have no objection to extensively evaluating software AS LONG AS IT REMAINS AN EXCERCISE IN EVALUATION! The moment you decide to use that piece of software you MUST purchase it.

I've scanned these forums for quite some time and can not believe that all the people posting info about PS actually own it. It is scum bag pirates that force software companies to sell at inflated prices. If every user of Adobe PhotoShop had purchased a legitamte copy the price would be substantially lower.

End Rave (sorry , but this subject makes me really angry. I see good friends pirating software, movies, music all the time and they seem blind to th ethics involved!)
--
colsmith

paulc · Apr 28, 2002

mp said:
Lovely.

Thanks to folks like you---I was part of the reduction in force at
Adobe.

I love to visit these forums for tips on my canon, but this really
offends and upsets me to read this.

I'm even too angry to address this further...

I am sorry you were laid off, but your suggestion that I did something unethical or even illegal is ridiculous.

Before I did this purchase/upgrade, I did call Adobe. I told the customer support people exactly what I was going to do. They said it was OK. They told me how to transfer the license from the old Photoshop owner to me.

I have paid Adobe 150 $ for this, and now another 150 $ to upgrade to version 7.0. I would not have paid the full 600 $ simply because the tool is not worth this much to me, I would have kept using PaintShopPro, or purchased Photoshop Elements.

Can you, please, point out to me speciffically what I did wrong, according to you ?

Member said:
PaulC said:

simon the pilot said:

Dear List,

I would like to get a copy of Photoshop for manipulating my gig.
pics. but money is very tight at the moment!

Can anyone recommend a place (UK) where I can maybe buy a previous
version of Photoshop at a discount?

Thanks

Simon

Click to expand...

I purchased an old Phtoshop version on Ebay for 50 $ - it was
version 2.5 for MacIntosh. I then called Adobe, and upgraded it to
version 6.0 for 150 $. I called them beforehand to make sure that
this is allowed.

Paul.

Click to expand...

Earl32928 · Apr 28, 2002

colsmith, I take issue with your comments: Just what is your basis for determining the number of posters who do not "own" PS? Also, what in the world makes you think that Adobe would sell issues of PS for a lot less dollars if it were not for "scumbag pirates"? On the contrary, software companies fight piracy so that they can INCREASE their profit; not to give the "little guys" a better price.

colsmith said:
simon the pilot said:

Thanks to all who replied.

I will get a copy of Photoshop Elements (legitimately!) and see how
I do with that.

Click to expand...

Excellent choice - form both the technical and the ethical viewpoints!

I have been evaluating the trial versions of Elements and PSP, its
a close call but I think I'll go with elements.

Now for my little rave, not addressed to you Simon, but it was
brought up in this thread -

My my ethics regarding software are a little lose, I have no
objection to extensively evaluating software AS LONG AS IT REMAINS
AN EXCERCISE IN EVALUATION! The moment you decide to use that piece
of software you MUST purchase it.

I've scanned these forums for quite some time and can not believe
that all the people posting info about PS actually own it. It is
scum bag pirates that force software companies to sell at inflated
prices. If every user of Adobe PhotoShop had purchased a legitamte
copy the price would be substantially lower.

End Rave (sorry , but this subject makes me really angry. I see
good friends pirating software, movies, music all the time and they
seem blind to th ethics involved!)
--
colsmith

--
Earl

colsmith · Apr 28, 2002

Earl said:
colsmith, I take issue with your comments: Just what is your basis
for determining the number of posters who do not "own" PS?

Hi Earl, my basis for this comment is the number of posts I've seen advocating the "cheap way out". One specifically mentioned getting PS for $5 at a swap meet. I did not mean to infer that you are part of that group, so if that's your issue I appoligise.

I do not however appologise for my description of pirates as "scum bags"! There can be no justification for stealing.

GTF · Apr 28, 2002

Adobe set the price for the original PS before they had any idea as to how many copies would be pirated. So the fact that it is so expensive is not very much related to how much it may be illegally copied.

Prior to digital photography being so popular, Adobe's target audience was people that needed such a product professionally. They were not expecting individual consumers to shell out such big dollars. Adobe's response to the digital explosion has been more affordable versions like Elements.

IMHO while this is a good effort on their part, they have the wrong idea. Instead of PS "Light" (PS "dumb"?) they should release a PS that is completely oriented to photo editing (none of the other stuff PS can do) and completely compatible with PS curves, actions etc. Many of us "unprofessional" consumers need more than PS Elements but can't afford regular PhotoShop. Sell it for $200 if necessary but not $600+!!

GTF

Alistair60736 · Apr 29, 2002

Dont forget to have a look at the linux not sure about MAC.

If your not totally familiar with photoshop there is nothing to lose in startin g on the GIMP

I like the idea of free software.

http://www.gimp.org/

simon the pilot said:
Thanks to all who replied.

I will get a copy of Photoshop Elements (legitimately!) and see how
I do with that.

Can I upgrade to full Photoshop at a later date if I want to?

Simon

Photoshop - on the cheap!

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