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What is the best camera system for BIF photography?

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RickLT

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I’m also posting this on other forums to see if one system might stand above all others.

Let’s say that you do not have DSLR system and have a budget of $5000 for a camera, lenses and other accessories.

Giving an unbiased opinion based on your experience and knowledge, what is the best DSLR camera system for BIF photography? What capabilities should the camera and lenses have for this type of photography?

Rick
 
Best camera system for BIF photography is not Pentax. That doesn't mean you can't get great results with Pentax gear - you can - but you can bet your a** a camera like the Nikon D300 will make it easier. Of course skill is what matters and I am sure it may even be more rewarding getting good results with a Pentax - after all people were shooting birds before AF was even invented but you are not tied to any system and I am not a fanboy so I can honestly say a more sports/pro oriented camera will do better here - if the camera makes your life easier than why not?

So I would recommend the D300 - it has the same sophisticated (51 point) AF system and predictive focusing as the $5K Nikon D3. The camera costs less than $2K - so that way you can put the spare change on some quaility lenses. My 2 cents. but I really recommend you go out and try some cameras in a store and see how you like them and how it handles too - you just might like the K10D's handling above the others but it will not have the D300's sophisticated AF system.

--
Sinan
http://sinantarlan.zenfolio.com/

 
Sinan Tarlan said:
Best camera system for BIF photography is not Pentax.
Click to expand...
--

I would expand this line to say that for BIF & AF, Pentax just cannot make it at all and that is from a Pentaxian.

BIF happens to be the most gear-demanding among all type of photography. If I am correct Pentax does not even have any predictive algorithm of the AF system. That is within the viewfinder, a bird flying sideway will be tracked and lock-focused from one AF point to the next AF point.

Because of that I use the most primitive form of predictive focus tracking (manual) from my manual lens.

http://forums.steves-digicams.com/forums/view_topic.php?id=582081&forum_id=11&jump_to=825714#p825714

Sinan is right about splitting the $5000 you budgeted into $2000 for the body and $3000 for the lens.

Daniel, Toronto
http://www.pbase.com/danieltong
 
little feathered B*ggrs In Flight. Well Birds in Flight

Caught a few with K10 but have to rely on my mate with his D2x & 300mm f2.8 IS to capture them well and consistently. In the main due to the strength of the metering system.
--



Col™
 
While I don't have any experience with the other brands, if I were to get more serious with my BIF, or just bird/wildlife photography in general, I would probably, out of necessity, switch camera brands, unless, of course, Pentax comes out with something that can match the AF and speed capabilities of the N/C brands, not to mention lens availability. I occasionally get a great in-flight bird shot with my Bigma, but most of the time, it is of the tail and outspread wings, as the bird is flying off by the time I can find it in the viewfinder and get focused. One of the big problems that I've encountered, and I really don't see how N or C would make any difference, is in tracking the birds as they fly. When the mirror pops up the viewfinder goes black, no matter what brand you are using.

I haven't tried this solution, but I think I am going to, as it will be fairly inexpensive, and that is to place a red dot sight on the camera's hot shoe. Here are some links (in fact, one of the headers says that this cheap adapter can make pros out of amateurs--I'm all for that! :> )

http://www.prleap.com/pr/8584/
http://www.photosolve.com/main/product/xtendasight/index.html

I might add that a proper tripod with a gimbal mount would be an essential piece of equipment for photographing BIF's. Either that, or the Bushhawk or similar "gunstock" mount.

Just my 2 cents.
Ed
 
I also was wondering what BIF meant? With my devious mind, I was thinking all sort of meanings....none of them can be posted on a respectable forum... ;-)
 
D TONG said:
I would expand this line to say that for BIF & AF, Pentax just cannot
make it at all and that is from a Pentaxian.
BIF happens to be the most gear-demanding among all type of
photography. If I am correct Pentax does not even have any predictive
algorithm of the AF system.
Click to expand...
I agree that it is gear-demanding but with all respect I do not agree that Pentax cannot make it at all. I am not sure how predicitive algorithm works but it works. Few days ago I went with my dog for a walk and he was "aporting" as dogs like to do. Well I do not know how speedy is the dog when running at full throttle but I would say I have no chance to overtake him. Have a loook at these shots - I shot app. 80 pics, 6 of them are FF, 8 of them are BF the rest is as you can see at the bottom. I would say quite a good number of keepers. All of them shot with awkward K10 and slowish Tamron 70-300 DI in AFC / Auto FP selection with average frame rate 2,5 fps. I hardly managed framing and zooming how busy the situation was. Should I complain about the result? My Nikons F100 D100 and D70 were no better in such a situation - probably current Nikons are.

regards

Vlad

 
[U] vlad said:
I agree that it is gear-demanding but with all respect I do not agree
that Pentax cannot make it at all. I am not sure how predicitive
algorithm works but it works. Few days ago I went with my dog for a
Click to expand...
Very nice looking pup, Vlad, and great shots of it. However, your shots are with the dog running straight toward you, so, as far as predictive focus goes, that doesn't really seem to be a fair comparison to shooting a flying bird. How often does a bird fly directly toward you? And even if it is flying directly toward you, most likely is it going over your head, which means you will have to track the bird in your viewfinder and move your camera up in the process. This is fine as long as you can keep the focus point on the bird, which means you must track it very closely. What I'm trying to say is that with your dog running directly toward you, you really didn't have too much trouble keeping it centered in the viewfinder, thus it was not that much of a test of the k10d's predictive focusing ability. Now, if your dog was running an agility course, or jumping, or chasing a rabbit, do you think your K10d (or you, for that matter) would have been able to predictively track his movements nearly so well? I'm not saying that the K0d couldn't do it, or couldn't do it as well as N or C brand, just that your comparison to the dog running toward you isn't quite the same as trying to capture a bird in flight. There are way more variables in trying to capture B'sIF.

All that said, capturing B'sIF with the K10 is not impossible, but it places a lot more responsibility on the photographer's ability to predict the flght pattern of the birds well enough to keep them in focus while shooting. The photos below were taken in good light, using a k10d, Sigma 50-500, tripod and gimbal-type head (not $5000 worth, but around $2000.) Even with the avocets a good distance away, flying fairly predictably, I had still had quite a challenge in keeping them in focus, and tracking them--these are a couple of my better shots! Had the K10d been capable of a faster frame rate, I would have increased my chances of getting more shots in focus. Had the birds been closer to me, the challenge would have been even greater. (IMHO)
(these are not cropped, only contrast adjusted and a little sharpening applied)





Again, IMHO, the high ISO performance, lens availability, and FPS of the K10d would prohibit me from recommending Pentax specifically for BIF shooing, though good shots are certainly obtainable as demonstrated by many on this forum. The truth of the matter is that you are going to be frustrated most of the time by all the "should have been" and "wish it was" shots of B'sIF.

Ed, the ridge runner[/U]
 
For every decent BIF shot I've taken, I must have at least 2 dozen more "if only" shots, and a fair percentage of them have to do with focus issues, whether my fault, or the camera's, or both...surely everyone who tries to shoot BsIF has their fare share of "if only's" no matter what brand they wear.

Ed
 
the hotel said:
K10D with my Bigma mounted on a BushHawk
Click to expand...
Roger--I've seen and admired many of your BIF photos, you sure have a knack for it. My question is not meant to be a put-down of the K10d by any means (I love mine.) However, objectively speaking, do you find that you get quite a number of "non-keepers" compared to the keepers? And, if so, roughly what percentage do you think were due to any of the K10d's "limitations?"

And, moreover, do you think the number of missed shots would be increased if you owned a N or C brand camera equivalent to the k10d?

Do you think that it is less a matter of what camera/lens, and more a matter of mastering the technique (timing, tracking, etc.) once you have acquired equipment that will allow for better BIF shots? (speaking of the Bushhawk and long lens, primarily)

Thanks,
Ed
 
RickLT said:
I’m also posting this on other forums to see if one system might
stand above all others.

Let’s say that you do not have DSLR system and have a budget of $5000
for a camera, lenses and other accessories.

Giving an unbiased opinion based on your experience and knowledge,
what is the best DSLR camera system for BIF photography? What
capabilities should the camera and lenses have for this type of
photography?

Rick
Click to expand...
Unlimited budget

(last week) Canon pro camera and whatever L lenses you need...400 2.8, 300 2.8 500 f4 600 f4 70-200 2.8 IS...maybe a Sigmonster etc

Unlimited budget

(This week) Nikon D300...over a D3 because of the "extra reach of the crop" and the long glass of your choice...please include a 300 f2 (thats right f2 not 2.8..only a few made...Pentax was gunna make one as well...or so I read in another thread)

Your Budget of 5000....Canon mid range camera and at least a 300 2.8 with convertors plus a L grade zoom of your choice.

No budget...pretty much any make.

I would NOT reccomend Pentax as the camera to buy...IF this is what you mainly want it for...but its fine as a sideshow of photography.

There IS however a couple of major things in favour of Pentax for birds (or anything requiring long glass on a BUDGET).....The backwards compatability of all the old glass made in K and m42 mounts and with particular note the useability of all those old Tamron adaptall lenses....And also the 1.7x autofocus adapter...a Tamron 300 2.8 with a 1.7x afa gives the cheapest autofocus option faster than f5.6 for ANY brand...actually 510 mm f4.8.

I have actually just got back from an hour or so of trying for birds (in flight or otherwise)....I went this morning with a 135 1.8 with the 1.7x afa and it was just too short....this afternoon the Tamron 300 and afa was just to long grrrr.

I have only tried BIF a couple of times and there was not enough clear space where I was today...oh well.... couple from today up soon.

neil
 
Ridge Runner said:
the hotel said:
K10D with my Bigma mounted on a BushHawk
Click to expand...
Roger--I've seen and admired many of your BIF photos, you sure have a
knack for it. My question is not meant to be a put-down of the K10d
by any means (I love mine.) However, objectively speaking, do you
find that you get quite a number of "non-keepers" compared to the
keepers? And, if so, roughly what percentage do you think were due
to any of the K10d's "limitations?"

And, moreover, do you think the number of missed shots would be
increased if you owned a N or C brand camera equivalent to the k10d?

Do you think that it is less a matter of what camera/lens, and more a
matter of mastering the technique (timing, tracking, etc.) once you
have acquired equipment that will allow for better BIF shots?
(speaking of the Bushhawk and long lens, primarily)

Thanks,
Ed
Click to expand...
Ed I do get a lot of not keepers, I open up the photos as thumbnails and keep the ones that look good in another folder then I delete the originals.

I think that understanding the animals or birds is a big plus on getting yourself in position so you have an opportunity to get some keepers. I spent a lot of time watching which way the Osprey came and went and payed attention to the wind and if the wind was the right way I got between them and where they were going as an example. Same thing for deer and elk. I find that spending time doing homework pays for itself big time.

My BushHawk has increased my keepers a bunch, in fact since I bought it, it has never not been attached to my Bigma.

I am ordering a second wildlife set up and I do expect I will get more keepers especially in bad or low light conditions. I will have my K10D with my BIGMA and the new set up in my camera wagon so conditions will tell me what one I will use. I am waiting until I am satisfied the focus problem has been fixed then my order goes in for:

Canon 1D Mark 3 with 3 lenses & some accessories.

Canon EF 500mm f/4L IS

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS

Canon EF 16 - 35mm f/2.8L II

Canon Extender EF 1.4x II

A new BushHawk for the above

Lots of other misc. toys for it.

Since I have never turned off my BURST mode on my K10D I just don't pay attention to how many I delete. I just pick the thumbnails I think are going to be good and save them then delete the others. IMHO using burst mode is the BEST way to get keepers. More often that not one out of 10 or 12 is just much bettr than the others in that burst.

--

 
A couple from today with the K100d and 1.7x autofocus adapter and Tamron 300 2.8 adaptall lens.

The K10d would be better for this because of the greater pixel density and cropping seems to be necessary with many bird shots. On that note if the new K20d or whatever it is in a couple of months really is a 14mp camera with a 1.5 crop and it focuses well it may become THE camera for BIF....oh well we will know in two months or so.

neil











link back to flickr
http://www.flickr.com/photos/26884588@N00/
 
I would say that we have some excellent BIF photographers on the forum, check out some of the work by Dominic Cantin :







And the AF system does have predictive performance. But it is not in the league of C&N, so I would suggest like Leya, the 1D Mar III and 100-400 mm lens. Or the Nikon D200/D300 with e.g.80-400 VR lens.

Else, a top line K1 camera with higher FPS, is likely to be announced next year from Pentax. But I don’t expect it to have the high Iso ability like the 1DMIII.

Else in my book, BIF stands for Brøndby Idræts Forening; and is the European Football club that I follow ;-)
A derby is coming up today, I keep my fingers crossed.

Sorry to hear if we're loosing you to Canon, Roger. You've shown some great work, always a pleasure to follow. But I do understand why you would like a top performance camera like the 1DMIII with its large buffer ability and FPS, high Iso performance, outstanding AF, and those great lenses too.

--
Kind regards
Sune



“The K10D not only proves that Pentax belongs in the big league, it’s an all-star player.” Popular Photography & Imaging and American Photo. Jan 07
 
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