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Is inconsistent matrix metering the first D300 bug?

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Harry Behret said:
WhoMe said:
It even says that it will not produce desired results with exposure
compensation.
Click to expand...
You left out the part where EV "is recommended in most other
situations. I don't know about you but when I take a shot I'm
"reading" the light and I have no thoughts about alogorithms.
Click to expand...
I think you misinterpreted the manual. It does not say EV is recommended in most other situations. It says matrix metering is recommended in most other situations. In other works if you are going to used exposure compensation or autoexposure lock don't use matrix metering.

I like Raymond's response below: http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1039&message=25834078

If you think you really understand the metering well enough and have tested it in enough situations then you can probably get away with it. I personally don't feel like going through that trial and error phase for each new camera I pick up.
 
Harry Behret said:
TexasAg03 said:
What about Program mode? This one was shot on Thanksgiving Day (less
than 24 hours with the camera) in Program mode with factory settings.
I was just grabbing some family shots. There is clipping in the red
channel and the whole thing looks too bright to me. I think the
matrix metering should be able to handle this, but maybe I'm wrong.
Click to expand...
If you're gonna use Program mode you might as well be using a P&S.
The camera can not do it all, it ain't that smart. That's why there
are good photographers and medicore photographers (I'm president of
the club). The good photgraphers can read the light and give the
camera the info it needs to take a good shot.
Click to expand...
My point and shoot never would have gotten the shot because he stopped for just a moment. I was using program mode since I was just shooting casually. Don't start on the whole "just use a point and shoot" routine; it sounds elitist. I have been using a point and shoot digital for three years (and also my 35mm SLR that just broke) and I miss way too many shots like that one due to the slow reflexes of the point and shoot camera.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's a great camera. I just think that for $1800, it should get simple shots like that one right.
 
WhoMe said:
I guess I've never bothered trying to learn to predict an algorithm I
know nothing about. Call me old school in that I like to know the
inner workings of a machine before I try and second guess it.
Click to expand...
Well, do you drive a car? If you do, how much do you know about the inner workings of the car (including the in-board computer algorithms which regulates such essential functions as engine timing, abs, etc.)?

Nikon's matrix-metering is a very useful feature because it works unles you're dealing with an exceptional light situation which are easy to recognize (snow, speculars, etc.). I think it should be used for that reason, not because we know or we don't know the details of the algorithm.

--
Thierry
 
Harry Behret said:
The vast majority of D300 users on the boards I frequent have
reported no such problem.

The few folks I've seen who reported the problem were using matrix
metering and shooting in aperture or shutter priorit and not making
EV adjustments. If you are going to use matrix metering in those
modes you have to make EV adjustments.

Harry
--
http://behret.smugmug.com

'if you ain't having fun, you ain't doing it right'
Click to expand...
Forgive me if I'm being ignorant, but why not use matrix while shooting A or S as long as they are dialed in correctly? I don't understand.
--
Matthew Scott
 
jetstream said:
I'm a bit puzzled, I just looked at this thread:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1039&thread=25834569
I have a hunch that there's a slight overexposure in some of the
shots, but severly burned HL's in the 1st 4 and last pic (2 different
users...)
Click to expand...
IME, you would likely see the same thing with a d70 or d200 shot or any shot from any other camera that wasn't deliberately exposed (ie user controlled) for retention of the extreme highlights.

The hype on this issue is just like the d70/d200 "underexposure" complaints from new users. It is quite likely that nikon has adjusted the d300 response to metering, precisely to address those past "underexposure" complaints.

That's a futile endeavor, IMO, simply because there are enough people that would rather complain and not bother trying to learn how to operate the new metering/exposure adjustment.

--
my gallery of so-so photos
http://www.pbase.com/kerrypierce/root
 
Ray Ritchie said:
I'm not convinced any of the "problems" I've seen complaints about
reflect anything more than user's lack of experience with this
particular metering system. Every new meter will unique behaviors for
certain shots. No matter how sophisticated a matrix metering system
becomes, and no matter how many reference images are used to
construct the camera's internal database, the meter cannot know the
intent of the person taking the photo. Many of the examples posted
here which claim to show "overexposure" just seem to be examples of a
difficult exposure situation in which the photographer needs to make
a conscious decision about which portion of the photo to expose
correctly, and then use exposure compensation (or spot or
center-weighted metering) appropriately. That's why the camera has
all those features.

Ray
Click to expand...
--

 
Instead of going out and putting their imagination to work, they sit at home, mount their camera on a tripod, and dissect and over-analyze and over-test every mundane detail of their camera. They shoot graphs, color charts and test for every technicality known to man.

And once they discover even the tiniest discrepancy, they exaggerate and make the biggest deal of it here on the forums.

The D300 is great, and I've yet to encounter anything wrong with it.

This place really needs more photographers rather than techno-philes with nothing better to do.
--
http://www.michaelkormos.com
 
In those images, the wingtip highlights may be much smaller than one of the meter's 1005 pixels, so it may be in no position to keep them from overexposing.
 
It really sounds like people who use EV compensation with matrix metering would be even happier if the camera offered true averaging reading. Then there'd be no surprises.
 
I agree with others. Saying you have to use EV with Aperture priority and Matrix metering doesn't make sense.

Greg
 
But what's wierd is that I find myself getting all caught up with this nonsense. That will definitely change though when my camera actually gets here tomorrow :)
--
Matthew Scott
 
If you are going to PP every image (which I in fact do), then it sounds like the D300 meter is doing exactly the right thing: exposing everything as far right as possible without losing the highlights. That would give you the most information and the least noise.

On the other hand, if you want to be able to use the images right out of the camera, more "normal" D200-style metering would be preferable. Too bad there isn't a setup parameter.
 
TOF guy said:
Well, do you drive a car? If you do, how much do you know about the
inner workings of the car (including the in-board computer algorithms
which regulates such essential functions as engine timing, abs, etc.)?
Click to expand...
If the car gave me the option of adjusting the decisions it makes concerning those things you better believe I wouldn't be making them unless I fully understood how it works.
TOF guy said:
Nikon's matrix-metering is a very useful feature because it works
unles you're dealing with an exceptional light situation which are
easy to recognize (snow, speculars, etc.). I think it should be used
for that reason, not because we know or we don't know the details of
the algorithm.
Click to expand...
I'm in no way saying that matrix metering is a bad thing. I'm saying you shouldn't be adjusting it unless you fully understand how it works which is nearly impossible with todays complex matrix metering.
 
dmb34 said:
Forgive me if I'm being ignorant, but why not use matrix while
shooting A or S as long as they are dialed in correctly? I don't
understand.
--
Matthew Scott
Click to expand...
Hey Matthew,

You're not being ignorant at all. When you shoot in aperture or shutter piority with matrix metering you have to help the camera out by making ev adjustments. If I'm shooting a white subject against a darker backgrpund I'll will make a negative adjustment to the camera's metering, with a darker subject against a lighter background I make a positive ev adjustment.

The D300 is not a P&S camera. For the best results you have to give the camera a little bit of help.

Harry

--
http://behret.smugmug.com

'if you ain't having fun, you ain't doing it right'
 
WhoMe said:
If you think you really understand the metering well enough and have
tested it in enough situations then you can probably get away with
it. I personally don't feel like going through that trial and error
phase for each new camera I pick up.
Click to expand...
I'm sorry but with every new camera there is a trial and error period as you get acquainted with the camera. I shoot that way because that was the way pros who I respect said was most effective. After using it for years I've found that they were right.

Harry
--
http://behret.smugmug.com

'if you ain't having fun, you ain't doing it right'
 
Hi All,
I am the one who posted the second batch of pictures on that thread.

(Swans and the King Fisher) First let me say that I never use matrix metering. These were shot with center weighted and set to 8mm. (I normally shoot at 6mm with my D200) When shooting white birds I often switch to spot and/or lower exp. by .7 The King Fish was so small in real life that it almost fitted inside the red focus square! (Yup I was way too far away!) Plus it caught me off guard. So what I think happened was my meter was fooled by the darker water surrounding this bird and caused an over exposure. With that said, I have never got a good king fisher shot so I was excited and posted it...blown HL's and all. Plus I was impressed that the camera would focus on something that small,

Brian
jetstream said:
I'm a bit puzzled, I just looked at this thread:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1039&thread=25834569
I have a hunch that there's a slight overexposure in some of the
shots, but severly burned HL's in the 1st 4 and last pic (2 different
users...)
Click to expand...
--
Brian

Nikon D300 & D200, 200-400 f4 VR, 70-200 2.8 VR, 105 VR macro, SB800, Tamron 17-50 2.8 Sigma 10-20. Panasonic DMC-fx01
My picture page:
http://www.pbase.com/cleanmaxx_brian/

My 91 Nissan Sentra SE-R
http://www.jbl.com/car/featured/installs/sentra.aspx
 
The A and S theory does not make sense at all. Dialing in would be required for any setting. Program mode would still need it and if you go in manual mode you are not letting the camera make the choice anyway (unless you look at the exposure indicator and adjust). Exposure is basically exposure. Now you will obviously get different looks by using different shutter or app selections, but you still will have to get the same overall exposure. Using A, P or S the camera still adjusts to get that exposure and you have to make ev adjustments accordingly. Just because it is in P mode does not mean that it will handle a black or white object in the center and better than it would in A&S.
Greg Matty said:
I agree with others. Saying you have to use EV with Aperture
priority and Matrix metering doesn't make sense.

Greg
Click to expand...
 
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