Focal length of prime lenses in DSLR's

What you said makes perfect sense to me, apart from the bit above.
Sigma's 30mm 1.4 isn't a cheap lens, and it's also bigger (62mm
filter vs 49) and heavier (430g vs 235) than a Minolta 50mm 1.4.

I know for sure that it's designed for the APS sensor size, I've
looked through a Dynax 7 viewfinder and it cuts off the corners. So,
assuming it's not using wide-angle design, and is instead using the
cheaper 'normal' design as you said, why is it bigger, heavier and no
cheaper than a full frame 50mm 1.4?
The Sigma lens has the in-lens HSM.
Not in the Minolta/Sony mount, though.
which has to add some weight.
Not much more than removing all extra gearing.
Note also that it is still lighter and has less lens elements than
the Minolta AF 35/1.4 G.
The latter has extra elements for more correction. Note that Sigma has vignetting issues and a linear drop of vignetting, none of these in the 35G.
And as for price: pricing has nothing to do
with cost. The Sigma lens is expensive, since it is currently the
only fast normal prime lens available for APS-C sensor cameras. If
lower priced competitors should appear, its price would drop in a day.
Not really. The ground aspherical element, SLD and ELD glass do take their toll (none in the 50 mm lenses, apart from 50/1.2 L and 50/1 L by Canon), as does build quality.
 
There's no 'normal' perspective. I'll explain below.
The big problem is that last bit: the expected viewing distance. 4x6
prints tend to be viewed from farther away (relatively) than 8x10 or
larger prints are. Landscape photos tend to be viewed from a closer
distance than portraits are, and a shorter focal length is more
"normal" for landscapes than for portraits. Motion pictures are
viewed quite differently from still photos, and a considerably longer
focal length is "normal" in the motion picture industry than for
still photography.
I was appalled when I learned that typical focal lengths in camcorder zooms started at about 40-45 mm equivalents, 38 mm was very rare indeed. But filming is quite a different experience and indeed, 40 mm in motion pictures seems wider than 28 mm in still cameras -- a lot to do with optical illusion and the fact that the brain has more data to work on in a moving image than in a still one. Indeed, this can be seen in everyday lives -- hustling through a busy street and your field of view is limited -- you focus on a very narrow cone in front of you. Slow down, move when the street is less busy and you see more detail around you. Stop, look at night, and you have a wide vista.

Another proof of that: find a quiet place and look at the moon high in the sky. It's tiny, maybe the size of a pinball (viewed at a 'normal' distance). Stare at it long enough and it gets larger. Look at it when it's low, and it will immediately seem much larger -- up to the size of a football (soccer ball for Americans).

Our eyes' field of view widens and narrows dynamically. Amazingly, when there's a lot of detail, unless you have time, you will not be able to fully appreciate an amazing vista, you will subconsciously try to focus on the details your brainpower can handle (if there are too many details, field of vision will narrow). If there are few details (look up in the sky on a clear night) so the brain is comfortably able to process them into meaningful information, your eyes will (subconsciously) rifle for more details. If you do that consciously, you will suddenly feel your vision narrow to allow for a long stare at a detail in the scene.

If, therefore, we see things differently based different conditions, is there still a 'normal' 'standard' lens?
 
OK - so I got my physics book out now ... It still seems to me that, if I focus a 28mm lens on something in the foreground & take a pic, then crop that image so that the foreground item is exactly the same size as it appears in a pic taken from the same position with a 200mm lens (or a 50mm lens) - then the relative sizes of an object in the background in the 2 pics will be different: i.e the background object in the 200mm pic will be bigger than the same object in the cropped 28mm pic. Surely, this is what leads to the compressed perspective effect you see with a long lens? Background (more distant) items are relatively bigger - so you percieve them as nearer.

So therefore, the overall image (foreground, background & all points in between) will look different if one was taken with an APS-C based DSLR & a 33mm lens, compared with the same image taken with a 35mm SLR & a 50mm lens.

So if you want to take DSLR pics that have that same 50mm prime 'charm' that you used to get with your 35mm SLR - then you still need a 50mm lens. Except that 33% of the image will be missing!
 
I just tried that with a pair of images I took earlier today (at
either end of the zoom range of my little point&shoot!) & what you
said would appear to be not correct. If there was someway to attach
the image I would show you!
I'd be interested to see your examples. You might try posting your pictures on photobucket or pbase etc in order to share them here.
http://photobucket.com
http://www.pbase.com

regards,
Peter
 
There's no 'normal' perspective. I'll explain below.
You seem to be talking about angle of view, not perspective. Perspective has to do with how objects relate to each other: is one in front of the other, or beside it, partly to the left, partly to the right, etc. Of particular interest for conventional (2D) photography is relative size as an indicator of distance.

Perspective doesn't depend on perception. It's a geometric effect of the positions of the viewer and the various objects involved.
 
I think you are right if you are standing at the same distance. The equivalent would be to frame an object with a 200mm lens, put on a 20mm lens and walk up to the subject until it is framed the the same then it would look the same. The physics is that different focal lengths is equivalent to different distances from the subject. A 200mm lens at 100ft is the same as a 20mm lens at 10ft. Try it.
--
Tom

http://www.flickr.com/photos/25301400@N00/
 
No. Perspective is determined by shooting distance only. Simplifying,
if you took a picture from the same location with a 20 mm lens and
with a 200 mm lens, and cropped the picture from the 20 mm lens to
1/10th of the linear resolution, you'd get the same perspective
(assuming the same position in regard to exit pupil in the lens).
You're right but your example is wrong. A 200mm lens at 100 ft is the same as a 20mm lens at 10 feet. You're cropping example won't work since perspective changes with the distance from the subject.
--
Tom

http://www.flickr.com/photos/25301400@N00/
 
OK - so I got my physics book out now ... It still seems to me that,
if I focus a 28mm lens on something in the foreground & take a pic,
then crop that image so that the foreground item is exactly the same
size as it appears in a pic taken from the same position with a 200mm
lens (or a 50mm lens) - then the relative sizes of an object in the
background in the 2 pics will be different: i.e the background object
in the 200mm pic will be bigger than the same object in the cropped
28mm pic.
No. I'm not sure what theory leads you to think this way. It is not supported by a practical test. Try it and see.

What we are talking about is this. The camera does not move. A picture is taken with a telephoto lens, and another with a wideangle lens. The relative sizes of near and far objects are identical in both pictures. How could it be otherwise? Are you suggesting that the telephoto lens magnifies distant object but does not equally magnify close objects?
Surely, this is what leads to the compressed perspective
effect you see with a long lens? Background (more distant) items are
relatively bigger - so you percieve them as nearer.
Compressed perspective arises from viewing all of the subject from further away.

Say for example there are two people in your picture. One is 5 feet away and the other is 15 feet away. The nearer person will look a lot bigger, about three times the size of the further person. Now walk away and view the two people so that the nearest is 100 feet away, and the furthest is 110 feet away. They look very nearly the same size now - because the viewing position has moved.
Hope this helps,
Peter
 
I did a test today - & I think the last post is correct (which in hindsight seems obvious) - however the outcome of the test was not what I expected! So I suspect the test was flawed.

I'll do it again tomorrow when it's light (long lens, short lens+same camera position+cropped, short lens+changed camera position) & try to post the results somewhere we can all see.
 
No. Perspective is determined by shooting distance only. Simplifying,
if you took a picture from the same location with a 20 mm lens and
with a 200 mm lens, and cropped the picture from the 20 mm lens to
1/10th of the linear resolution, you'd get the same perspective
(assuming the same position in regard to exit pupil in the lens).
You're right but your example is wrong. A 200mm lens at 100 ft is the
same as a 20mm lens at 10 feet. You're cropping example won't work
since perspective changes with the distance from the subject.
That makes no sense at all, I'm sorry. "From the same location". Cropping has NOTHING to do with changing the camera position.

In this example, the only difference between the lenses is the angle of view. Perspective is the same because the camera is not moved.

If you crop images from the wider lens down, to cover the same angle of view as the narrower lens, then the difference has been eliminated and they become the "same".

RP
 
There is a simple example here at dpreview that illustrates the concept:

http://www.dpreview.com/learn/?/key=perspective

Here is a page that gets it wrong. The writer insists that it is the focal length change that causes the perspective change, but then admits that he moved between shots in order to keep the lamp the same size in the frame with each focal length:

http://www.photozone.de/3Technology/demos/focalCompress.htm

Of course, the example at the top demonstrates that perspective is a function of viewer to subject distance and position, not focal length, which only determines field of view.
 
Here is a page that gets it wrong. The writer insists that it is the
focal length change that causes the perspective change, but then
admits that he moved between shots in order to keep the lamp the same
size in the frame with each focal length:

http://www.photozone.de/3Technology/demos/focalCompress.htm

Of course, the example at the top demonstrates that perspective is a
function of viewer to subject distance and position, not focal
length, which only determines field of view.
They are interesting examples, as long as it is clear that the camera has moved. The author states:

"The 50mm setting represents the perspective as you can see it with your naked eye".

I would say ALL of them represent what you can see with your naked eye. (Though there may be some judgement as to which makes the best picture).
Regards,
Peter
 
OK - so I did search the forums first - but couldn't find an answer!

Received wisdom is that on a 35mm SLR, a 50mm prime lens gives the
same viewpoint as the human eye - in terms of the way close-in &
far-away objects look relative to each other. - Yes?
No. It's called the "50mm myth". It's basically bogus. Do a search on that term.

However, you can make it true under a specific, and pretty common situation - shoot with a 50mm lens (or 35mm-equivalent) and then print the resulting image at 8x10. Now hold the 8x10 at 18" (roughly normal viewing distance). The print occupies the same portion of your vision as did the original scene captured by the camera + 50mm lens.

Shoot with a circular fisheye and project the image onto the inside of a hemisphere. That's also a natural situation. The IMAX domes use this approach quite often.
So on a DSLR with a magnification factor of 1.5x (a Nikon D80 to be
precise!), does a 50mm prime lens give that same perspective view,
just cropped by 67%?
Perspective is solely a function of location, not focal length. This has been mentioned in the thread before. Look at this site's glossary on perspective.
Or have digital-only lenses been engineered such that (in the Nikon
case for example) the 35mm lens, which should capture the same amount
of visual field as a 52mm lens on a 35mm SLR I suppose, give the same
perspective as a 52mm lens would on a 35mm SLR?
I hope the answer to this is now known.
I suspect I know the answer - but would welcome some more learned
opinions!
Go read the glossary article.

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)
 
Almost. A lens of around 43 to 50mm is considered to give the same
field of view as the human eye.
Look through a camera with a 50mm-equivalent lens mounted. Note the field of view you can see. Now move the camera away and look at the same spot. Note your field of vision.

They are not even close to the same.

Your eyes are more like fisheye lenses, seeing a near 180° angle-of-view.

Your brain can do a very effective equivalent of digital zoom on those images.

Read this:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1018&message=17075832

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)
 
In this example, the only difference between the lenses is the angle
of view. Perspective is the same because the camera is not moved.

If you crop images from the wider lens down, to cover the same angle
of view as the narrower lens, then the difference has been eliminated
and they become the "same".
No they dont. Cropping doesn't change the angle of view. It only restricts what you see with the same angle of view. Cropping is like looking through a 6" square hole cut in cardboard held at arms length. It doesn't change the angle of view. The 200mm at 100ft has the same angle of view as the 20mm lens does at 10 ft. Increasing focal length increases the angle of view which has the effect of visually bringing you closer to your subject.
--
Tom

http://www.flickr.com/photos/25301400@N00/
 
In this example, the only difference between the lenses is the angle
of view. Perspective is the same because the camera is not moved.

If you crop images from the wider lens down, to cover the same angle
of view as the narrower lens, then the difference has been eliminated
and they become the "same".
No they dont. Cropping doesn't change the angle of view. It only
restricts what you see with the same angle of view. Cropping is like
looking through a 6" square hole cut in cardboard held at arms
length. It doesn't change the angle of view. The 200mm at 100ft has
the same angle of view as the 20mm lens does at 10 ft. Increasing
focal length increases the angle of view which has the effect of
visually bringing you closer to your subject.
If we are thinking in terms of the 35mm film format, the 200mm lens has an angle of view of about 12 degrees. A 20mm lens has an angle of view of about 94 degrees.
Changing the subject distance has no effect on these angles.

As the focal length increases, the angle of view decreases, not increases.

Regards,
Peter
 
No they dont. Cropping doesn't change the angle of view.
Cropping changes the angle-of-view by definition. The angle of view is the angle between the left and right (or top and bottom, or corners) of the image. Cropping moves the borders and therefore definitely changes the angle of view.
The 200mm at 100ft has
the same angle of view as the 20mm lens does at 10 ft.
That's field of view, not angle of view. The field of view is the actual size of the focus plane, and indeed it is the same as you described above.

Cropping also changes field of view.
Increasing
focal length increases the angle of view which has the effect of
visually bringing you closer to your subject.
Increasing focal length decreases angle of view.

Angles of view:

Fisheye: 4*arcsin(sensor size/(focal length*4))
Rectilinear: 2*arctan(sensor size/(focal length*2))

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)
 
I would say ALL of them represent what you can see with your naked
eye.
Yes, they do. That is often the best argument against "focal length compression". Ask people if they notice that the perspective relationship between two objects (lamp, tree, two people, whatever) changes as they move closer or farther away while looking at them without a camera. Then ask them if they thought that the focal length of their eye had changed.
 

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