16-50mm Is this a bad copy? or what I should expect

To be honest - I am not too impressed with it's performance - should
have just saved over $450 and bought the DA16-45 instead. Since that
lens is so good wide-open I expected better from the DA*. Of course
at f/4 this lens is just as good (probably better) than the 16-45 but
since SDM is nothing but silent focus (no speed advantage) it is
worth nothing to me, weather sealing is nice but not really worth
$450 is it. I guess I can still use it at f/2.8 in low-light but then
in low-light I'm hardly likely to be in a hurry so I could use my
primes anyways and get more speed/better quality. Oh well - that's
what you get for believing the hype and pre-ordering.
I too wonder if I would have been better off saving money. I have
used only primes up until now, FA35mm, 50mm, Sigma 105mm, and
zenitar. I love having fast lenses and ability to take shots at large
apertures with the short DOF in order to blur the background.
However, there are situations when it is a pain to carry three lenses
with me and swap them out several times. I may have to find out if
the store I bought it from takes returns. (should have asked before I
bought, but didn't foresee this happening)
If you can return it - try another one and see - otherwise pick up another lens - there are good alternaties available: DA16-45 f/4, Sigma 18-50 f/2.8 Macro, Sigma 17-70 f/2.8-4.5 Macro for example, all costing much less and much better value for your money IMO.
For your test shots - did you use a tripod? You should really manually focus for
such tests as-well. Using AF you are involving another variable that is not an
optical trait of the lens.
I did use a tripod with remote control shutter. I did shoot a second
set of images manually adjusting the focus front and back. These
images are here

http://zoltanc.zenfolio.com/p73487943/

The interesting thing is that the left side became sharper while the
center and right got worse. I confirmed as best as I could that I was
perpendicular to the wall by shooting the FA50mm wide open
(everything was sharp). Since I feel good about the setup, I wonder
if this is the decentering problem.
If at f/1.4 everything was good with the setup then you are probably correct - there is nothing wrong with your setup or DOF at f/2.8. It could be 2 things: decentering and also some field curvature maybe. I think it's probably likely a combination of both but mostly it just seems decentered to me when one side really looks "harsh" (due to poor sharpness which is a result of decentering) and not just a nice smooth OOF (hence not field curvature).

--
Sinan
http://sinantarlan.zenfolio.com/

 
Sinan Tarlan wrote:
(snip)
If you can return it - try another one and see - otherwise pick up
another lens - there are good alternaties available: DA16-45 f/4,
Sigma 18-50 f/2.8 Macro, Sigma 17-70 f/2.8-4.5 Macro for example, all
costing much less and much better value for your money IMO.
Good advice - if you don't really need f2.8 consider the DA16-45 (mine is sharp wide open, but of course build quality is not as good as the DA*), or if you must have f2.8 at some or all focal lengths look at one of the Sigmas - there have been many good reports of them here.

I'm one of the lucky ones - my DA*16-50 seems to be a good one for centering and focus. My "brick wall" tests do show soft corners wide open but it sharpens up well by f4. I really bought it mostly for the weather resistance and SDM focusing; otherwise I'm very happy with my DA16-45.
--
Jim King - Retired Colormonger - Suburban Detroit, Michigan, USA; GMT -5h (EST)
Pentax user for over 45 years. Photo gear and collection listed in my profile.



* * * * *
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
  • Sir Winston Churchill
* * * * *
The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits.
  • Albert Einstein
 
The MTF numbers are here:
http://www.photozone.de/8Reviews/lenses/tokina_1650_28_nikon/index.htm

"Well, partially. Despite a slight centering defect the resolution characteristic is pretty impressive with a generally excellent center performance and very good borders and extreme corners from f/4 onwards. At f/2.8 the border resolution is slightly reduced. "
Yours seems more than just "reduced".
--
360 minutes from the prime meridian. (-5375min, 3.55sec) 1093' above sea level.

'The exposure meter is calibrated to some clearly defined standards and the user needs to adjust his working method and his subject matter to these values. It does not help to suppose all kinds of assumptions that do not exist.'
Erwin Puts
 
Just wondering since you seem pleased with your copy how would you rate it's sharpness compared to the 2 full size shots I posted - more or less the same you think?

Agree about build quality though - the DA* does feel well built which is a plus of course but after using (and loving) the DA21,FA31,FA50 combo, probably would have been wiser for me to get the 16-45 and save some. Oh well - I'll be happy once my AF and exposure problems are hopefully fixed soon :)

Going to take more test shots tomorrow but my does get much better at f/4 too so I'm just wondering if your f/2.8 performance is more or less in line with the above - mine seems to have better edge sharpness at 50mm than at 16mm - which does seem in line with the Tokina tested at Photozone so I think mine is very close to that one optically.
If you can return it - try another one and see - otherwise pick up
another lens - there are good alternaties available: DA16-45 f/4,
Sigma 18-50 f/2.8 Macro, Sigma 17-70 f/2.8-4.5 Macro for example, all
costing much less and much better value for your money IMO.
Good advice - if you don't really need f2.8 consider the DA16-45
(mine is sharp wide open, but of course build quality is not as good
as the DA*), or if you must have f2.8 at some or all focal lengths
look at one of the Sigmas - there have been many good reports of them
here.

I'm one of the lucky ones - my DA*16-50 seems to be a good one for
centering and focus. My "brick wall" tests do show soft corners wide
open but it sharpens up well by f4. I really bought it mostly for
the weather resistance and SDM focusing; otherwise I'm very happy
with my DA16-45.
--
Jim King - Retired Colormonger - Suburban Detroit, Michigan, USA; GMT
-5h (EST)
Pentax user for over 45 years. Photo gear and collection listed in
my profile.



* * * * *
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
  • Sir Winston Churchill
* * * * *
The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its
limits.
  • Albert Einstein
--
Sinan
http://sinantarlan.zenfolio.com/

 
Just wondering since you seem pleased with your copy how would you
rate it's sharpness compared to the 2 full size shots I posted - more
or less the same you think?
More or less the same; see this image, DA*16-50 @ 16mm f2.8, resized to 800x533 and saved at about the same filesize as yours:
http://www.pbase.com/jamesk8752/image/89473836
Agree about build quality though - the DA* does feel well built which
is a plus of course but after using (and loving) the DA21,FA31,FA50
combo, probably would have been wiser for me to get the 16-45 and
save some. Oh well - I'll be happy once my AF and exposure problems
are hopefully fixed soon :)
Good luck; you have had quite a time with your copy of the DA*. I really think we tend to expect too much from it; after all, although it replaces a 24-75 on film, it is optically a much shorter lens and presents some real design challenges. That's certainly no excuse for poor QC though...
Going to take more test shots tomorrow but my does get much better at
f/4 too so I'm just wondering if your f/2.8 performance is more or
less in line with the above - mine seems to have better edge
sharpness at 50mm than at 16mm - which does seem in line with the
Tokina tested at Photozone so I think mine is very close to that one
optically.
Looking forward to your post!
--
Jim King - Retired Colormonger - Suburban Detroit, Michigan, USA; GMT -5h (EST)
Pentax user for over 45 years. Photo gear and collection listed in my profile.



* * * * *
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
  • Sir Winston Churchill
* * * * *
The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits.
  • Albert Einstein
 
You write that you took some photos at a wedding that generally you were happy about. Then you took some portraits, (some prefer the 50-135 for portrait work), and mention that the focus might need to be corrected. Then you go on with your homemade test set-up.

You’re comparing your DA* 16-50/2.8 lens wide open, to a 50 mm prime (much easier to make). You’re showing examples for a use, in which the DA* lens is not designed.

It is a lens, meant to be used for objects at intermediate and long ranges, not close-up copying work. The idea is, how a lens that is well corrected for infinity use is not necessarily corrected for use at close range, and vice versa.

A fast zoom lens that goes from 16 mm, is a fairly extreme design. It sounds like you would be happier with the Sigma 18-50 f2.8 MACRO instead, or continuing with primes.

Dedicated macro lenses are aberration-corrected for use at close range, including astigmatism, field curvature and distortion to enable copying work. Here the upcoming DA 35/2.8 Macro limited, will probably do the trick better for you.

http://www.vanwalree.com/optics/astigmatism.html
“Astigmatism in practice

Sure, when a lens is used at full aperture the corner definition is often noticeably worse than the center definition and the above aberrations can be (partly) responsible, but it's no trivial matter to tell them apart from other oblique aberrations.”

Lance had a discussion of the DA*16-50 f2.8 @ f2.8 :

“I am not too sure that we take photos of landscapes at f2.8, I know I never do. Generally I will be taking a landscape with apertures of f5.6 and greater. I am also not in the habit of taking flat plane photos of brick walls either. If I want a flat field type lens, I will use a prime that exhibits this advantage.

If you are using the lens at the longer end, then it is generally to pick out a subject or for portraiture and it is generally the central area that requires a sharp image quality.

All lenses are softer at the corners and maybe this is a little softer at the corners, but we are talking about f2.8, not f5.6 or f8 etc where it seems to be quite good.”
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1036&thread=24841259

And he said in another thread :

“At f2.8 this lens is generally not used at 16mm, but more likely to be used at 30mm or 50mm etc. Expecting flat field sharpness at 16mm and f2.8 is a bit of a tall order for a prime let alone a zoom and I think it not something that is critical.

I am almost tempted to say that if they require less distortion at the wide end that a zoom is not the answer. Having said that, even my FA20 exhibits quite significant distortion of 2.5% and thats on APS C! ;-)”

If you want more sharpness in the corners at extreme wide angle and wide open, you should go for the 14 mm prime. Here is James real world comparison :
http://www .

pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-slr-lens-discussion/14607-da-14mm-f2-8-vs-da-16-50mm-f2-8-wide-end.html
(Just put the URL together, to get access to the forum)

A great lens for architecture work, was the A 15/3.5. But from new that was a 1.600-2.000 Euro lens. It was later sold under Zeiss as well.

For taking pictures at ceremonies, I might bring two bodies. One with a tele lens, and one with a WA/normal lens.

Hope things will work out for you. Whether you find it to be okay for the work you expect to do with it, take it back to have it adjusted; or trade it for a different lens more to your liking.

--
Kind regards
Sune



“The K10D not only proves that Pentax belongs in the big league, it’s an all-star player.” Popular Photography & Imaging and American Photo. Jan 07
 
I know this is a stupid thing for me to ask, but are you closer than .3m? Minimum focal length? I assume you are, but thought I would ask just in case.

Steve
 
You write that you took some photos at a wedding that generally you
were happy about. Then you took some portraits, (some prefer the
50-135 for portrait work), and mention that the focus might need to
be corrected. Then you go on with your homemade test set-up.

You’re comparing your DA* 16-50/2.8 lens wide open, to a 50 mm prime
(much easier to make). You’re showing examples for a use, in which
the DA* lens is not designed.
It is a lens, meant to be used for objects at intermediate and long
ranges, not close-up copying work. The idea is, how a lens that is
well corrected for infinity use is not necessarily corrected for use
at close range, and vice versa.
Hmmm, I think a lens should be usable at its minimum focusing distance. Especially for a DA*...
A fast zoom lens that goes from 16 mm, is a fairly extreme design. It
sounds like you would be happier with the Sigma 18-50 f2.8 MACRO
instead, or continuing with primes.
Dedicated macro lenses are aberration-corrected for use at close
range, including astigmatism, field curvature and distortion to
enable copying work. Here the upcoming DA 35/2.8 Macro limited, will
probably do the trick better for you.

http://www.vanwalree.com/optics/astigmatism.html
“Astigmatism in practice
Sure, when a lens is used at full aperture the corner definition is
often noticeably worse than the center definition and the above
aberrations can be (partly) responsible, but it's no trivial matter
to tell them apart from other oblique aberrations.”

Lance had a discussion of the DA*16-50 f2.8 @ f2.8 :
“I am not too sure that we take photos of landscapes at f2.8, I know
I never do. Generally I will be taking a landscape with apertures of
f5.6 and greater. I am also not in the habit of taking flat plane
photos of brick walls either. If I want a flat field type lens, I
will use a prime that exhibits this advantage.
If you are using the lens at the longer end, then it is generally to
pick out a subject or for portraiture and it is generally the central
area that requires a sharp image quality.
All lenses are softer at the corners and maybe this is a little
softer at the corners, but we are talking about f2.8, not f5.6 or f8
etc where it seems to be quite good.”
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1036&thread=24841259
And he said in another thread :
“At f2.8 this lens is generally not used at 16mm, but more likely to
be used at 30mm or 50mm etc. Expecting flat field sharpness at 16mm
and f2.8 is a bit of a tall order for a prime let alone a zoom and I
think it not something that is critical.
I am almost tempted to say that if they require less distortion at
the wide end that a zoom is not the answer. Having said that, even my
FA20 exhibits quite significant distortion of 2.5% and thats on APS
C! ;-)”
I think the op was testing his zoom at 50mm. I guess we should expect that the zoom should be as good (as bad?) in the corners at 2,8 than the FA50 at 1,4.
If you want more sharpness in the corners at extreme wide angle and
wide open, you should go for the 14 mm prime. Here is James real
world comparison :
http://www .

pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-slr-lens-discussion/14607-da-14mm-f2-8-vs-da-16-50mm-f2-8-wide-end.html
(Just put the URL together, to get access to the forum)

A great lens for architecture work, was the A 15/3.5. But from new
that was a 1.600-2.000 Euro lens. It was later sold under Zeiss as
well.

For taking pictures at ceremonies, I might bring two bodies. One with
a tele lens, and one with a WA/normal lens.

Hope things will work out for you. Whether you find it to be okay for
the work you expect to do with it, take it back to have it adjusted;
or trade it for a different lens more to your liking.

--
Kind regards
Sune



“The K10D not only proves that Pentax belongs in the big league, it’s
an all-star player.” Popular Photography & Imaging and American
Photo. Jan 07
--
Jocelyn

 
Hi Zoltan,

here are tips from Klaus from Photozone on how to test a lens for centering defects :
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1036&thread=24623648&page=3

He mentions that a distance to the chart needs to be -at least- 80x focal length (e.g. 4m (yards) for 50mm). I don’t know how close you were to yours ?

With a non-3D image, we cannot use minimum Focus Distance as benchmark. We need to for sure be more than 1 meter/yard away. (That is 3-4 times minimum focus distance).

Klaus also stated that : “technically there's no lens without a centering defect anyway - it is just a question of its severity.”

And Robert Chow wrote :

"Try looking at your images. If your images are markedly soft at the edges and stopping down does not help, you may have a problematic sample. You may then be justified in your disappointment."

The FA 50/1.4 is a FF lens., so you’re not really testing it at its borders with a crop digital sensor. Or did you test this one on film camera and scan the slides ?

For a good lens like the 50/1.4, I don’t know if I’m that surprised that with both lenses wide open; the 50 might still come out on top.

Another thing would be with the FA* 24mm f/2 AL [IF], the consensus seem to be regarding this lens that it is almost unusable wide open, and not even recommended at 2.8 either. This would have nothing to do with sample variation, but simply the characteristics of the lens. On the other hand, it has a high degree of contrast. Some like, some don’t.

Regarding sharpness, the 16-45 was already plenty sharp, so it is not on this parameter that the 16-50 should be bought.

Best of luck with your further testing. Hope things work out for you.

--
Kind regards
Sune



“The K10D not only proves that Pentax belongs in the big league, it’s an all-star player.” Popular Photography & Imaging and American Photo. Jan 07
 
Hi Zoltan,
here are tips from Klaus from Photozone on how to test a lens for
centering defects :
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1036&thread=24623648&page=3

He mentions that a distance to the chart needs to be -at least- 80x
focal length (e.g. 4m (yards) for 50mm). I don’t know how close you
were to yours ?
With a non-3D image, we cannot use minimum Focus Distance as
benchmark. We need to for sure be more than 1 meter/yard away. (That
is 3-4 times minimum focus distance).
Very good advice for lens testing. I had problems with the test that the original posting did. At near its minimum focus distance and at f2.8 the lens is being tested at its worst conditions and there are way too many things that could effect the test. The methods you posted makes a little more sense.
Klaus also stated that : “technically there's no lens without a
centering defect anyway - it is just a question of its severity.”

And Robert Chow wrote :
"Try looking at your images. If your images are markedly soft at the
edges and stopping down does not help, you may have a problematic
sample. You may then be justified in your disappointment."
Another good point.
The FA 50/1.4 is a FF lens., so you’re not really testing it at its
borders with a crop digital sensor. Or did you test this one on film
camera and scan the slides ?
Very good point. All that might be tested is that alignment of the camera with the chart. The reson I went with the FA limited over the DA limited. You are getting the best part of the image circle.
For a good lens like the 50/1.4, I don’t know if I’m that surprised
that with both lenses wide open; the 50 might still come out on top.
High quality prime lenses should still be able to beat out high quality zooms.
Another thing would be with the FA* 24mm f/2 AL [IF], the consensus
seem to be regarding this lens that it is almost unusable wide open,
and not even recommended at 2.8 either. This would have nothing to do
with sample variation, but simply the characteristics of the lens. On
the other hand, it has a high degree of contrast. Some like, some
don’t.

Regarding sharpness, the 16-45 was already plenty sharp, so it is not
on this parameter that the 16-50 should be bought.

Best of luck with your further testing. Hope things work out for you.
Dave
 
Thanks to all of you for your input, much appreciated.
Hi Zoltan,
here are tips from Klaus from Photozone on how to test a lens for
centering defects :
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1036&thread=24623648&page=3
Klaus also stated that : “technically there's no lens without a
centering defect anyway - it is just a question of its severity.”
Also at http://www.photozone.de/8Reviews/lensFAQ.htm it states that "...it is absolutely unrealistic to have a perfectly centered lens - it just does not exist...If I was a normal user I would run this procedure only if there´s reason to be suspicious. Otherwise you just risk loosing your SANITY....." I agree!
He mentions that a distance to the chart needs to be -at least- 80x
focal length (e.g. 4m (yards) for 50mm). I don’t know how close you
were to yours ?
With a non-3D image, we cannot use minimum Focus Distance as
benchmark. We need to for sure be more than 1 meter/yard away. (That
is 3-4 times minimum focus distance).
Distance was 54" or 137cm. As I first mentioned, I took some portrait shots of 3 people at f2.8. I was trying to throw the visible background out of focus. I could not back up far enough to use my fa50mm because of my setup ie 3 ft flash cord on a lightbox (another story). I noticed the person on the left was frequently out of focus and was not sure if it was due to the shallow dof or something with the lens. A quick vertically oriented show of a newspaper on the ground was oof on the left, and thus my test. The test was a little closer than the portrait distance I used, mostly so I could see the full paper.
And Robert Chow wrote :
"Try looking at your images. If your images are markedly soft at the
edges and stopping down does not help, you may have a problematic
sample. You may then be justified in your disappointment."
Stopping down to about f8 did help. Don't know how significant this is.
The FA 50/1.4 is a FF lens., so you’re not really testing it at its
borders with a crop digital sensor. Or did you test this one on film
camera and scan the slides ?
I used the same camera and setup.
For a good lens like the 50/1.4, I don’t know if I’m that surprised
that with both lenses wide open; the 50 might still come out on top.
Agreed...but I have nothing else to compare to. So, I don't know if I should be satisfied.
Another thing would be with the FA* 24mm f/2 AL [IF], the consensus
seem to be regarding this lens that it is almost unusable wide open,
and not even recommended at 2.8 either. This would have nothing to do
with sample variation, but simply the characteristics of the lens. On
the other hand, it has a high degree of contrast. Some like, some
don’t.

Regarding sharpness, the 16-45 was already plenty sharp, so it is not
on this parameter that the 16-50 should be bought.
There seems to be many people in agreement on the 16-45. I wanted the 16-50 because of the ability to take shots in lower light and shorter dof. Most of the pictures I have taken so far have been at a further distance, have been satisfactory. I need to learn the limitations of this lens so as to make better use of it.

As in the review of the Tokina version at photozone, although there was a drop in edge sharpness, it was still good. Perhaps there is a critical distance beyond which I should take pictures if I want to use a large aperture and get decent edge sharpness. I just don't know what that is right now. If after figuring out these limitations and maybe confirming them with another 16-50mm, I am not satisfied, perhaps the 16-45 would suit me better. Then I could get some other accessories!

Thanks again for your input.
 
To be honest - I am not too impressed with it's performance
I was initially concerned about the performance of my DA* 16-50. As I reported here back in August, I did a test against the DA 16-45, using a fence as the subject (filling the frame). My copy of the DA 16-45 has proved itself to be very, very good. In this test, though, the DA* 16-50 outperformed the DA 16-45 up to about 35 mm or so (if I recall correctly). This was especially noticeable in the corners wide open (where the DA 16-45 has never given me reason to complain). Above 35 mm or so, the DA 16-45 was just slightly sharper--so slight a difference that you would not notice it.

Conclusions: (1) My DA* 16-50 is just fine. (2) The DA* 16-50 has a good optical design. Reported issues most likely come from Pentax's manufacturing problems.

Incidentally, Hoya has implemented organizational changes to address the manufacturing problems. I'm not free to say what these are. But they are a step in the right direction.

Joe
 
Conclusions: (1) My DA* 16-50 is just fine. (2) The DA* 16-50 has a
good optical design. Reported issues most likely come from Pentax's
manufacturing problems.
Hi Joe,

Yeah mine is fine optically too I feel - my problems are from QC indeed. Otherwise I can't complain much either - I'm more dissapointed because of all the problems the lens has given me because of QC - not really because of it's optical traits but these problems have really tarnished my enjoyment of the lens unfortunately.

It could be better still though - the Tamron 17-50 is a more impressive performer IMO and that's quite a range at f/2.8 too - of course it is 1mm shorter but I am sure at 17mm the DA* is not as good as the Tamron at f/2.8. But hey - no need to get into all this.
Incidentally, Hoya has implemented organizational changes to address
the manufacturing problems. I'm not free to say what these are. But
they are a step in the right direction.
Everyone seems to know something about Hoya, the upcoming products, etc. etc. and not at liberty to talk about them :)

--
Sinan
http://sinantarlan.zenfolio.com/

 
DLBlack wrote:
Hi Dave,
I follow your thoughts earlier in this thread.

I had been thinking about getting the 16-45. Maybe buying it used, when people might be selling after getting the 16-50 instead. But after seeing a lot of great shots from the new DA*, my thoughts changed. The weathersealing is of big importance to me, the Sonic ability is fine too. The extra full stop of speed is of major value as well. Indoor and in low light conditions, I need to be able to have the ability to do f/2.8. For nature work, it is not that important, but for a table full of people, I would use maybe 18 mm at f/2.8. At 2.8, I could live with the knowledge that I primarily had center sharpness, and softer edges. If corner sharpness was needed, I would go for a prime. I think James’ real world comparison of the 16-50 vs. 14 mm, is very fine. At regular size image both are good, also when they are stopped down. At wide f/2.8 the 14 is the better lens, as could be expected. If the 16-50 was twice the price, I would expect it to equal the then similarly priced (from new) FA* 28-70/2.8 AL.

The 16-45 was a great package that could easily hold its own against even more expensive zooms from bigger brands. IQ wise, not much more could be squeezed out, but I need the 16-50 for the extra stop of speed, sealing and the tighter build quality.

If I was to test the sample that I had bought, I think that I would hold it up against the DA 14, DA 21, DA 40; knowing that all of these primes should top it off in comparison, and be a little better at the wider aperture settings. I would also, at comparable values, test it against the 16-45 and see that it should be able to offer equivalent performance. I’m often in a hurry indoors when shooting ceremonies, and f/2.8 is really the slowest I can accept as widest setting. There is a limit as to how slow shutterspeed I can live with, and I can’t really go higher than Iso 1250 with my K10. From the real world images that I’ve seen from people, I’ve liked the IQ of the DA*. A zoom is more versatile, but if I want best IQ, I’ll go with a prime.

To zoltanc : I really follow your thoughts on this. We need as consumers a way to go about testing our gear, so that it lives up to what should be expected. It is after all a STAR edition, so acceptable leeway is smaller. At 50 mm in your set-up, I think you’re still too close, Klaus mentions -at least- 4 meters/yards.

I would definitely test it against a 16-45; see if you can borrow one. If the 16-50 is noticeably worse, you should take it back to the place of sale. If it is a good place that you’ve bought from several times, I’m sure they’ll understand your situation.

I’ve given a lot of thought to it myself, and was leaning towards the 16-45. But have settled for the DA* instead. Best of luck, I hope things will come through for you.

I do agree that those of us buying later, can draw from the experience of the users who have bought the lens. And we can see if the characteristics of the lens is something we can live with. Many hated the 16-45 for its CA.

I can follow that you’ve been used to primes and wanna make sure that the difference you see, is not due to a faulty lens. I don’t see you as some pixelpeeper with unfair expectations and no sense of reality. Actually, we as consumers ought to have our own place like PhotoZone shop. It is a big thing even for Klaus to test these things. Even harder for us consumers not really knowing what to look for, or what we’re seeing. See if you can borrow a 16-45, do some testing; the DA* should hold its own against it. If you see a clear difference; off to the shop. I’m sure you can find some reasonable people to talk to.

It is pretty much the uncertainty that it the most annoying. If one had bought a lens that wasn’t really the better of the bunch, but still not enough to take it in; at least one would know, and take precautions when shooting. Now when we can’t really figure out to make a high enough scientific level of testing, it is troublesome not to know if we can trust the lens or not.

I will primarily use it as a travel lens, and avoid placing important things close to the borders, at wide open shooting.

--
Kind regards
Sune



“The K10D not only proves that Pentax belongs in the big league, it’s an all-star player.” Popular Photography & Imaging and American Photo. Jan 07
 
I have tested 3 or 4 copies of this lens and have been disappointed in all of them. I have seen photos taken by others on this forum that are fantastic so I am pretty sure there is a quality control issue.

A friend of mine was about to pick one up. He works at a camera store and has access to the lens on a daily basis. He loved the construction, speed and quietness. Without saying anything negative I asked if he had taken a close look at the photos from it. We both took shots of a sign on the shelf and inspected the shots. All were out of focus (focus was on the back of the shelf, not on the sign). Shutter speeds were adequate for hand holding and the light in the camera indicated that it was focusing on the sign, but had missed.

I have not had this problem with any of my other lenses. I have seen this on several brand new bodies with this lens. As I said, I have seen stellar results for others so I know that there are superb versions of this lens out there. Wish I could get my hand on one that worked.
--
David

Remember, the light at the end of the tunnel could be another train.
 
Sinan, I tried the 16-50 back to back with the 16-45 and all I can say is the 16-45 is sharper from 16-20mm in the corners and about the same at the centre and at smaller apertures. After that the 16-50 dumps all over it to the point where at 31mm its resolving as much as the 31LTD in the centre (though with slightly less contrast).

However I did keep getting odd and unpredictable focus misses with the SDM that I didnt get with the screw drive. Still some bugs in the algorithm I guess.

Still havnt bought the 16-50. I was a lot more impressed with the 50-135 which I will get in time. I am leaving one body on firmware 1.2 where both DA* lenses work flawlessly. I may downgrade the other body if I can find out how.
--
Steve
Pixel peepers miss the big picture.
http://www.pbase.com/steve_jacob
 
Jonson PL wrote:

I do agree with you and your observations. I am pleased with my copy of the DA816-50. Still I would think the DA Limited Primes should be better, especially at F2.8 to F4.0 The FA lenses should easily be better than the DA* zooms since you are getting the best part of the image circle (should be light or resolution fall-off at the edges. Still just from looking at the photos my DA*16-50 produces I am pleased with it enough to start carrying it instead of my Limiteds.

...

Zotlan has done a nice test of the DA*16-50 and comared it with the FA50. It does appear that there is resolution fall-off at the edges and the left side is worst than the right side. It still might be testing or alignment problems or it could be the lens. The test itself is testing the DA*16-50 near its extremes in focal length, f-stop and focusing distance. Anyhow, if the test photo is correct then there is resolution fall-off in the edges and the left side is worst than the right side. With DA lenses the edges are really at the extreme since the best image will be in the middle of the image circle and not at the edges. I would have hoped that the edges would have been sharp F4.0. In your case it was more like F5.6 on the right and F8.0 on the left. So it could be an centering defect. Now is it enough to get replace or repaired is another question.

Still your tests showed that using Full-Frame (FA) lenses with a crop sensor really does good things for the image. My guess is that if or when Pentax has a full-frame camera we will see a lot of people complaining about both resolution and light fall-off in the edges of their photos. Back in the old film days people didn't pixel-peep much so these defects didn't show up. Now with digital and the easae of pixel-peeping people are noticing these types of defects. I do hope Pentax gets a full-frame sensor to the market so that they will have to get more full-frame lenses out to market. This will give me more full-frame lenses to use with my crop sensor.

Anynow, back to you and your lens. Maybe repeating the test but using it outdoors with maybe a building or fence as a subject might be a better test. Using a mid-length (20-45) portion of the lens. If you want to compare it with another lens then maybe a DA lens like the DA40 or a zoom like the DA16-45.

Comparing the DA*16-50 F2.8 with a FA50 F1.4 at near minium focusing distance is not a fair comparison.

Good luck with your lens and/or lens testing.

Dave
 
Hi Steve,
Sinan, I tried the 16-50 back to back with the 16-45 and all I can
say is the 16-45 is sharper from 16-20mm in the corners and about the
same at the centre and at smaller apertures. After that the 16-50
dumps all over it to the point where at 31mm its resolving as much as
the 31LTD in the centre (though with slightly less contrast).
Interesting - I have both the 31 Ltd and DA*16-50. Edge to edge sharpness gets close at f/4 - but at f/2.8 the 31 Ltd wins hands down - it also has better micro contrast and general contrast. (not to mention bokeh). But it's not really fair comparing the DA* to the best Limited Pentax makes IMO. Interestingly the DA* seems to have more DOF at the same aperture than the others at f/2.8 (not scientifically tested mind you) - I believe this could be due to the fact that the DA* is actually shorter when focusing at close distances than the others - my FA50 at say 1.5ft focus distance seems to get significantly closer than the DA* at the same setting and same focus distance so I think that maybe affects DOF.
However I did keep getting odd and unpredictable focus misses with
the SDM that I didnt get with the screw drive. Still some bugs in the
algorithm I guess.
Could be, but it seems the 50-135 is basically free from this AF problem that is very prevalent with the 16-50.
Still havnt bought the 16-50. I was a lot more impressed with the
50-135 which I will get in time. I am leaving one body on firmware
1.2 where both DA* lenses work flawlessly. I may downgrade the other
body if I can find out how.
No doubt the 50-135 is a much safer buy IMO (and a cracking lens) - the 16-50 still doesn't seem to be free from problems - I am now wondering what Pentax are doing? You'd think they would fix these problems by now.

I am wondering if the short focus throw has any relation to the AF problems with this lens? I would think it shouldn't but I am no expert.

--
Sinan
http://sinantarlan.zenfolio.com/

 
Sinan, I tried the 16-50 back to back with the 16-45 and all I can
say is the 16-45 is sharper from 16-20mm in the corners and about the
same at the centre and at smaller apertures. After that the 16-50
dumps all over it to the point where at 31mm its resolving as much as
the 31LTD in the centre (though with slightly less contrast).
Interesting - I have both the 31 Ltd and DA*16-50. Edge to edge
sharpness gets close at f/4 - but at f/2.8 the 31 Ltd wins hands down
Hang on - the FA31 is a stop below max aperture the zoom is at max aperture - this is not surprising. At F5.6 I cannot tell them apart in resolution terms.
  • it also has better micro contrast and general contrast. (not to
mention bokeh). But it's not really fair comparing the DA* to the
best Limited Pentax makes IMO.
No but DA* lenses would naturally have higher resolution than their FA counterparts for similar build and design. A DA* 31mm would probably have higher resolution than a FA 31.
Interestingly the DA* seems to have
more DOF at the same aperture than the others at f/2.8 (not
scientifically tested mind you) - I believe this could be due to the
fact that the DA* is actually shorter when focusing at close
distances than the others - my FA50 at say 1.5ft focus distance seems
to get significantly closer than the DA* at the same setting and same
focus distance so I think that maybe affects DOF.
Most zooms do not perform that well at close focus unless they are specifically rates as macro zooms.
However I did keep getting odd and unpredictable focus misses with
the SDM that I didnt get with the screw drive. Still some bugs in the
algorithm I guess.
Could be, but it seems the 50-135 is basically free from this AF
problem that is very prevalent with the 16-50.
Not the one I used. Same issues.
Still havnt bought the 16-50. I was a lot more impressed with the
50-135 which I will get in time. I am leaving one body on firmware
1.2 where both DA* lenses work flawlessly. I may downgrade the other
body if I can find out how.
No doubt the 50-135 is a much safer buy IMO (and a cracking lens) -
the 16-50 still doesn't seem to be free from problems - I am now
wondering what Pentax are doing? You'd think they would fix these
problems by now.
I think too many people are testing the lens at the edges of its envelope not in the sweet spot. At 20-50mm and F4 upwards its a pretty decent lens and better than any FA* zoom lens. It also has very good contrast for a zoom. Possibly the only comparable lens which actually beats it is the Canon EF-S 17-55 F2.8 IS which has somewhat lower build quality and is not sealed. The Nikon DX 17-55 F2.8 is also comparable but much more expensive.

I will get one as soon as Pentax ship a focus firmware upgrade or I find out how to downgrade the camera to FW1.2.
I am wondering if the short focus throw has any relation to the AF
problems with this lens? I would think it shouldn't but I am no
expert.
No I think not - I think there is just a tuning issue in the AF control system. Its a generation 1 system - bound to be some bugs.

--
Steve
Pixel peepers miss the big picture.
http://www.pbase.com/steve_jacob
 
Sinan, I tried the 16-50 back to back with the 16-45 and all I can
say is the 16-45 is sharper from 16-20mm in the corners and about the
same at the centre and at smaller apertures. After that the 16-50
dumps all over it to the point where at 31mm its resolving as much as
the 31LTD in the centre (though with slightly less contrast).
Interesting - I have both the 31 Ltd and DA*16-50. Edge to edge
sharpness gets close at f/4 - but at f/2.8 the 31 Ltd wins hands down
Hang on - the FA31 is a stop below max aperture the zoom is at max
aperture - this is not surprising. At F5.6 I cannot tell them apart
in resolution terms.
Of course - yes at f/5.6 - for resolution they should be very close. Of course the Ltd has an advantage at f/2.8 - but the 31 is d*mn good even at f/1.8, the DA* is I think d*mn good for a zoom at the centers wide-open too - the edges seem worst at the widest setting and get better as you zoom to 50mm.
  • it also has better micro contrast and general contrast. (not to
mention bokeh). But it's not really fair comparing the DA* to the
best Limited Pentax makes IMO.
No but DA* lenses would naturally have higher resolution than their
FA counterparts for similar build and design. A DA* 31mm would
probably have higher resolution than a FA 31.
Hmm, this is interesting - how so, can you elaborate a little? The 31 Ltd seems to have lots of resolution especially from f/2.8 to f/8. I'd say f/4.5-f/5.6 is the real sweet spot more or less.
Interestingly the DA* seems to have
more DOF at the same aperture than the others at f/2.8 (not
scientifically tested mind you) - I believe this could be due to the
fact that the DA* is actually shorter when focusing at close
distances than the others - my FA50 at say 1.5ft focus distance seems
to get significantly closer than the DA* at the same setting and same
focus distance so I think that maybe affects DOF.
Most zooms do not perform that well at close focus unless they are
specifically rates as macro zooms.
I don't mean optical quality but yes you are correct - I am just simply talking about the magnification the FA50 has at 1.5ft compared to the magnification the DA* has at 50mm. But yes, most zooms are indeed like this.
However I did keep getting odd and unpredictable focus misses with
the SDM that I didnt get with the screw drive. Still some bugs in the
algorithm I guess.
Could be, but it seems the 50-135 is basically free from this AF
problem that is very prevalent with the 16-50.
Not the one I used. Same issues.
Hmm, shame. Though to be fair I've only read a handful of comments like that for that lens - the DA*16-50 seems to have significantly more units with problems.
Still havnt bought the 16-50. I was a lot more impressed with the
50-135 which I will get in time. I am leaving one body on firmware
1.2 where both DA* lenses work flawlessly. I may downgrade the other
body if I can find out how.
No doubt the 50-135 is a much safer buy IMO (and a cracking lens) -
the 16-50 still doesn't seem to be free from problems - I am now
wondering what Pentax are doing? You'd think they would fix these
problems by now.
I think too many people are testing the lens at the edges of its
envelope not in the sweet spot. At 20-50mm and F4 upwards its a
pretty decent lens and better than any FA* zoom lens. It also has
very good contrast for a zoom. Possibly the only comparable lens
which actually beats it is the Canon EF-S 17-55 F2.8 IS which has
somewhat lower build quality and is not sealed. The Nikon DX 17-55
F2.8 is also comparable but much more expensive.
I think you misunderstood what I meant - I don't mean fix it optically - I think it is just about as good as it can get optically - I mean fix the QC issues like the AF problems, decentered bad samples, etc.. This is a premium lens - we hardly ever read any problems with the DA Ltd's when they were released about AF issues or decentered bad samples, etc. - these are * lenses after all and should also be subject to higher QC like the Ltd's, if they aren't already.
I will get one as soon as Pentax ship a focus firmware upgrade or I
find out how to downgrade the camera to FW1.2.
I am wondering if the short focus throw has any relation to the AF
problems with this lens? I would think it shouldn't but I am no
expert.
No I think not - I think there is just a tuning issue in the AF
control system. Its a generation 1 system - bound to be some bugs.
Not sure what you mean by bugs.

So are you saying it is my camera's tuning that needs fixing for this lens and/or SDM or the lens itself that needs to be fixed? When I take my camera and lens to the technician either tomorrow or the day after I will first call and ask to make sure he has a functioning K10D with the latest firmware so that I can test the lens out on another unit and if he doesn't have one I will contact amati (a poster on here) and meet up with him so I that I can try the lens on his K10 before any drastic things are done to the lens.

EDIT: one thing - I noticed that infinity focus at 50mm is smack in the middle of the infinity sign on the focusing ring, whereas infinity at 16mm seems right at the beginning edge of the infinity sign. I checked my other zooms and they are not like this - infinity is always infinity when it is smack in the middle of the infinity sign.

--
Sinan
http://sinantarlan.zenfolio.com/

 

Keyboard shortcuts

Back
Top