My K20D rumour thread summary

James O'Neill · Nov 22, 2007

chris gunn said:
This is my understanding:

"dynamic range" seems to be a bit ambiguous. It should mean the
biggest range from dark to bright. Sometimes though people read it as
tonal range, which is the number of tones (gradations) in the dynamic
range.

For an analogy of a CCD sensor, think of a bucket (capacitor), rain
(light) and a funnel (micro lens).

Imagine a plastic bucket whose base isn't perfectly flat (noise) with a measuring scale down the side (A-D converter).

chris gunn said:
Dynamic range is proportional to Bucket / funnel.

Bucket volume over funnel area is inches/mm of rain before the bucket overflows.

But dynamic range is the a ratio - n Stops of DR [between "just above sensor noise/film fog" to "max exposure"].
So it is more like (bucket volume / funnel area) / imperfection height

chris gunn said:
Tonal range is proportional to the bucket size.

If you mean number of tones, it's dependant on the accuracy of the scale used for measuring. If you have a big bucket and a scale in cm, or a small one and a scale in mm that doesn't hold.

chris gunn said:
SR ratio is a increased with funnel size.

Signal to noise ratio ? Yes it increases with Funnel size, but that decreases range. Given that the imperfections in the bottom of the bucket don't increase in proportion to size you're better with a bigger bucket AND a bigger funnel.

chris gunn said:
Base ISO is proportional to Funnel/Bucket

The bigger the funnel and smaller the bucket, the sooner the bucket gets full.

Benedikt L · Nov 22, 2007

Hello Jim,

I guess you're right. It might be 14.1, 14.2 or 14.3 and so on. The only thing nagging my mind though is the possibility that "more" or "larger than" might relate not to the Mega-pixel count itself but to the sensor size , i.e. larger than APS-C size ("width"). I must confess I am a dreamer, so I dream of something larger than APS-C.

Take care!

tknterry · Nov 22, 2007

Roland Karlsson said:
I don´t like bulky cameras.
I will buy that one if it is small as a K100.
--
Roland

Smaller than the K10D? I think the K10D is small (and perfectly sized for me) compared to the Canon 40D that I also have

The K100D feels toy-like in comparison. I couldn't handle anything larger than the 40D without larger hands. So the upcoming Nikon 300D or whatever its called would feel like a tank, for example.

--
---Terry

http://photostuff.org/galapagos.html

ccs_hello · Nov 22, 2007

I don't bet any of my own possessions here, even for my own 2 pennies.

What I am betting is Pentax's future. They know that.
They have to play it safe.

ccs_hello

Roland Karlsson · Nov 22, 2007

tknterry said:
Smaller than the K10D? I think the K10D is small (and perfectly sized
for me) compared to the Canon 40D that I also have The K100D
feels toy-like in comparison. I couldn't handle anything larger than
the 40D without larger hands. So the upcoming Nikon 300D or whatever
its called would feel like a tank, for example.

Jepp - the K10D is 1 cm higher and 1 cm wider than the K100D.
And I find the K100D form factor being perfect.

I also have an old MX - but thats too small.

--
Roland

chris gunn · Nov 22, 2007

James O'Neill said:
chris gunn said:

This is my understanding:
"dynamic range" seems to be a bit ambiguous. It should mean the
biggest range from dark to bright. Sometimes though people read it as
tonal range, which is the number of tones (gradations) in the dynamic
range.

For an analogy of a CCD sensor, think of a bucket (capacitor), rain
(light) and a funnel (micro lens).

Click to expand...

Imagine a plastic bucket whose base isn't perfectly flat (noise) with
a measuring scale down the side (A-D converter).

Yay! More analogy detail

Imperfect bottom works somewhat considering the +ve effect of DFS (Dark Frame Subtraction). However Something less permanent would be better.

Perhaps rocks for that noise which is semi-permanent? and other debris, such as windblown leaves, sand for the more transient noise. Increases with exposure time.

James O'Neill said:
James O'Neill said:

Dynamic range is proportional to Bucket / funnel.

Click to expand...

Bucket volume over funnel area is inches/mm of rain before the bucket
overflows.

But dynamic range is the a ratio - n Stops of DR [between "just above
sensor noise/film fog" to "max exposure"].
So it is more like (bucket volume / funnel area) / imperfection height

What kind of analogy is "imperfection height"? How about you shove your yardstick into the bucket, and it's held up by the rocks 8-}

James O'Neill said:
James O'Neill said:

Tonal range is proportional to the bucket size.

Click to expand...

If you mean number of tones, it's dependant on the accuracy of the

Yeah, that's what I said up top.

James O'Neill said:
scale used for measuring. If you have a big bucket and a scale in cm,
or a small one and a scale in mm that doesn't hold.

More support for the yard stick.

James O'Neill said:
James O'Neill said:

SR ratio is a increased with funnel size.

Click to expand...

Signal to noise ratio ? Yes it increases with Funnel size, but that
decreases range. Given that the imperfections in the bottom of the
bucket don't increase in proportion to size you're better with a
bigger bucket AND a bigger funnel.

To be more comprehensive then, it improves with Funnel area, bucket size, yardstick resolution (to reduce quantum? noise).

James O'Neill said:
James O'Neill said:

Base ISO is proportional to Funnel/Bucket

Click to expand...

The bigger the funnel and smaller the bucket, the sooner the bucket
gets full.

I hope this has been of value to someone.

--
cheers!

Gunn

-- Get a big lens and get closer™.

http://www.dpreview.pentaxistDS.photoshare.co.nz
http://www.y3m.net/penwik/pmwiki.php/Main/PentaxLensWiki
FAQ: http://www.pentaxuser.org/tiki-index.php

chris gunn · Nov 22, 2007

Roland Mabo said:
14Mp APS-C CMOS processor.

Shutter redesigned to be faster and even more durable, and also

less noisy.

That would be good! My K10d scares small birds at 30ft as it is.

Roland Mabo said:
Mirror redesigned to be more damped, less noisy, more smooth in

operation, and faster.

Sweet!

Roland Mabo said:
Prism may be redesigned to offer bigger viewfinder, but I have

heard to little in the rumour-mill for this one so don't take it as a
fact (but I do see 95% viewfinder as a true possibility).

That couldn't hurt.

--
cheers!

Gunn

-- Get a big lens and get closer™.

http://www.dpreview.pentaxistDS.photoshare.co.nz
http://www.y3m.net/penwik/pmwiki.php/Main/PentaxLensWiki
FAQ: http://www.pentaxuser.org/tiki-index.php

John Mc Dermott · Nov 22, 2007

Roland Karlsson said:
tknterry said:

Smaller than the K10D? I think the K10D is small (and perfectly sized
for me) compared to the Canon 40D that I also have The K100D
feels toy-like in comparison. I couldn't handle anything larger than
the 40D without larger hands. So the upcoming Nikon 300D or whatever
its called would feel like a tank, for example.

Click to expand...

Jepp - the K10D is 1 cm higher and 1 cm wider than the K100D.
And I find the K100D form factor being perfect.

I also have an old MX - but thats too small.

Not too small (MX) if you keep the bottom half of the case on, just like the MZ5. I have the DS and tried the K10D and did find it a bit too big for my liking too.

Roland Karlsson said:
--
Roland

matander · Nov 22, 2007

ccs_hello said:
OK, it's impossible to be that old/obsolete Cypress
14Mpxl FF CMOS sensor which is based on 3T Active Pixel technology.

For better dynamic range and noise control, it has to be a 4T based
Active Pixel Sensor for proper CDS operation for noise-control.

So CMOS sensor (IBIS4-14000) guessing is wrong.

They started the story wrong, so people responded based on the wrong
assumption.

Who´s "they"? and where did you get the cypress FF 14 Mp sensor from?

No one here is guessing on the cypress sensor so your statement is absolutely correct, it wont be the cypress sensor. But that was obvious from post #1

Happy hybernating

Mats

John Mc Dermott · Nov 22, 2007

Roland Mabo said:
14Mp APS-C CMOS processor.

Shutter redesigned to be faster and even more durable, and also

less noisy.

Mirror redesigned to be more damped, less noisy, more smooth in

operation, and faster.

Prism may be redesigned to offer bigger viewfinder, but I have

heard to little in the rumour-mill for this one so don't take it as a
fact (but I do see 95% viewfinder as a true possibility).

Hi Rollei, any idea if there's going to be a K2 some time soon ? Or maybe K3 in a years time ?

Roland Mabo said:
--
Take care
R
http://www.flickr.com/photos/raphaelmabo

ccs_hello · Nov 22, 2007

Mats

Reading through the entire discussion (and the previous one here: closed due to max. number of posts reached) thread, it has a reference to the original source of the rumor. Over there, the original post started from discussion a full frame 14 Mpxl CMOS sensor made by Cypress with the part number given.

That's the one triggerred the discussions.

ccs_hello

rennie12 · Nov 22, 2007

up to 20 lenses - on their Top of Line model.

So everybody who wants to be a "contendah" is gonna have to follow suit.

Good on Pentax if they do it. We know it CAN be done because somebody figured out how to hack it about a year ago, but of course this was not really practical without storage by lens.
--
bill wilson

matander · Nov 23, 2007

ccs_hello said:
Mats

Reading through the entire discussion (and the previous one here:
closed due to max. number of posts reached) thread, it has a
reference to the original source of the rumor. Over there, the
original post started from discussion a full frame 14 Mpxl CMOS
sensor made by Cypress with the part number given.

That's the one triggerred the discussions.

ccs_hello

Yes, I know that the FF cypress has been up to discussions before but that FF sensor has never been commented or seen as a possible alternative by anyone with Pentax insight. Guys like Richardday, LanceB and probably RolandMabo has consistently said it would be an APS-C sensor, at other forums guys like benjikan, codiac2600 etc also witholds APS-C as the sensor format. They also more or less confirms 14 MP, look at Richarddays reply to my first post in this thread, he is vague on a lot of points, but he is not vague on sensorsize and resolution (he was also pretty certain of the display size not being 3 feet....).

My intent when starting this thread was to summarize the data that was directly or indirectly confirmed by people that are bound to an NDA, since we can assume that the data provided by them are approved to leak by Pentax.

Regards
Mats

ccs_hello · Nov 23, 2007

Mats,

IMHO, finding the right sensor is a key (almost want to say THE key) for a success DSLR design. The latest 12M pxl APS-C sized CMOS sensor performance really raised the bar. I don't think Pentax is willing to gamble anything that they have no control over.

Regards,
ccs_hello

Thibouille · Nov 23, 2007

Mmm having no control over a technology they developed themselves would be indeed weird, no?

There's only one way of having full control and it is developping the sensor yourself.

Roland Mabo · Nov 23, 2007

There is a camera above the K10D replacement, "K1D" or whatever it will be called.
But it will probably not be part of the January announcement.
Wait for Photokina in September 2008 for this one.
--
Take care
R
http://www.flickr.com/photos/raphaelmabo

DLBlack · Nov 23, 2007

Roland Mabo said:
There is a camera above the K10D replacement, "K1D" or whatever it
will be called.
But it will probably not be part of the January announcement.
Wait for Photokina in September 2008 for this one.
--
Take care
R
http://www.flickr.com/photos/raphaelmabo

I might have to save for two camera next year.

Dave

Roland Mabo · Nov 23, 2007

It is a 14Mp APS-C CMOS designed by Pentax, probably manufactured by Samsung.

When the rumours about 14Mp started to came, there was some posters who believed in the Cypress 14Mp CMOS 24x36, because that is the only 14Mp on the market. They simply couldn't believe in another - unknown - 14Mp sensor.

But there has been another, not official, 14Mp in the works and it is now time to release it.
You are free to believe what you want, but the sensor is real.
--
Take care
R
http://www.flickr.com/photos/raphaelmabo

nosnoop · Nov 23, 2007

ccs_hello said:
The latest 12M pxl APS-C sized CMOS
sensor performance really raised the bar. I don't think Pentax is
willing to gamble anything that they have no control over.

Huh?
What more control do you want than developing your own sensor?

And we'll see if this gamble would pay off. If it is as good as those "in the know" have led us to believe, this could very well pay off handsomely.

nosnoop · Nov 23, 2007

ccs_hello said:
it has a
reference to the original source of the rumor. Over there, the
original post started from discussion a full frame 14 Mpxl CMOS
sensor made by Cypress with the part number given.

Not really, I read through the whole thread of the original "source"; and no they did not think it was Cypress.

My K20D rumour thread summary

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