Never mind the Camera, lets focus on the lens = FA?

In other threads in this forum, there is increasing speculation pertaining to the next Pentax Camera and the ultimate fate of Pentax. Most of this is has an underlying negative connotation of "If Pentax does not do something soon, they loose out in the SLR race". Based upon some of the information and analysis I see in these threads, if Pentax comes out with a camera that is substantially improves upon the 10D in January, I think all this speculation would be for naught as they would be on good upgrade timeline. I am sure the next camera will have improved high ISO performance, perhaps live view, more Pixels all with an APS-C sensor. However, I hope at some point they have a FF camera as it is a matter of time before this sensor becomes very affordable.

Enough on the camera. We all know that Pentax is having issues with lenses. They are late releasing the roadmap DA lenses and they have had production issues. Given the issues with DA design, why not re-issues the FA lenes, perhaps with additional coating or other modifications for digital? Since the FA series of lenses are fully designed, have some excellent if not stellar lenses, and can work on both FF and APS-C In fact, they will deliver excellent performance on APS-C cameras. In addition, there are some long lanes in this portfolio that will address the current void in the lens roadmap. And if Pentax goes FF, this portfolio of lenses will be perfectly positioned.

These lenses are going for quite a premium on e-Bay, I would venture for more than they sold for when new. Lets increase the supply with new ones.

yesman12 said:

Enough on the camera. We all know that Pentax is having issues with
lenses. They are late releasing the roadmap DA lenses and they have
had production issues. Given the issues with DA design, why not
re-issues the FA lenes, perhaps with additional coating or other
modifications for digital?

Click to expand...

Pentax has issues with their lens factories in Vietnam, they have no design issues with the DA-lenses. It is the factory, not the lens designs. Starting to build FA-lenses in this factory does not solve the problem with the factory.

--
Take care
R
http://www.flickr.com/photos/raphaelmabo

Yes there are factory issues, but that did not prevent them from quickly licensing the Tamron design and produce this lens in their factory (I assume) under the Pentax brand. This would imply that there is also a design bottleneck, since they licensed this design. Also, if you look at the roadmap there are many DA lenses that are coming out next year. Is this a design or factory limit? I would venture both.

The FA lens designs are available now…perhaps some updates to them is all that is needed.

they would have to re-design the FA lenses to take out lead as this is no longer allowed for the EU market at least. It is not worth the effort.

--
Steve

http://www.pbase.com/steephill

yesman12 said:

Yes there are factory issues, but that did not prevent them from
quickly licensing the Tamron design and produce this lens in their
factory (I assume) under the Pentax brand.

Click to expand...

We don't know yet whether Pentax is producing this lens, or Tamron is producing it for them. I hope early adopters will let us when whether it is assembled in Japan or Vietnam.

yesman12 said:

This would imply that
there is also a design bottleneck, since they licensed this design.
Also, if you look at the roadmap there are many DA lenses that are
coming out next year. Is this a design or factory limit?

Click to expand...

As discussed, there have been factory issues. I keep hearing that these have been fixed, but then I have been hearing that for a couple of years now.

I understand that good optical engineers are in short supply worldwide. Still, it is likely that the designs of the forthcoming DA lenses are complete, or nearly so. The problem continues to be in production.

Pentax was losing money on many of the FA* lenses. To counter this problem, they opened the plant in Vietnam and redesigned the lens bodies to be less expensive to manufacture. That means stamps, dies, moldings, etc., to say nothing of paint facilities, which the FA* lenses required. It would be expensive and time-consuming to set up such equipment in Vietnam.

Joe

steephill said:

they would have to re-design the FA lenses to take out lead as this
is no longer allowed for the EU market at least.

Click to expand...

Besides, all that lead needs to be saved for children's toys coming to the U.S. from China.

steephill said:

they would have to re-design the FA lenses to take out lead as this
is no longer allowed for the EU market at least. It is not worth the effort.

Click to expand...

The EU ban on lead does not apply to the optics, it applies to the electronics in the lens. It would be fairly trivial to update the manufacturing process for the electronic circuits to substitute non-lead materials, as this is being widely done throughout the industry.

Greetings

I think Pentax should stay with the FA lenses. This way when the FF comes out the lenses will work with all digitals and their film cameras, like Nikon.

Enjoy
Roger J.

I saw in an earlier post that the reason Pentax discontinued the FA lenes was because of Lead restrictions in Europe. These restrications are known as RoHS and would require a redesign of Lenes. However, another post indicates that it only applies to electronics and not glass. I can verify this as my firm manufactures electronics in Europe and is subject to RoHS.

If lenes are not subject to RoHS, then I would submit that Pentax should revisit production of these lenes.

yesman12 said:

If lenes are not subject to RoHS, then I would submit that Pentax
should revisit production of these lenes.

Click to expand...

It is possible that one or two of the forthcoming telephoto lenses may descend from FA* optical designs, just as the two D FA macro lenses descended from FA macros. But Pentax can't just start up production of FA lens bodies again. Everything in the Vietnam plant is geared toward DA lens bodies, which are designed to be less expensive to produce.

There wouldn't be much point in bringing back the optical designs of the FA wide angle lenses. Pentax has already designed substitutes for those (although we could use more). If Pentax ever does produce a camera with a 24 x 36 mm sensor, new designs would be needed for wide angle lenses.

Joe

Roger said:

Greetings

I think Pentax should stay with the FA lenses. This way when the FF
comes out the lenses will work with all digitals and their film
cameras, like Nikon.

Enjoy
Roger J.

Click to expand...

I believe FA lens is not compatible with FF DSLR body, if one really come out. Pentax SR technology is different from N# or C#. Pentax SR need larger image circle which will need a larger lens for FF. The best they can do is 1.3 or 1.2x factor, ofwhich I think it is good enough.
--
Yongkiat
http://www.pbase.com/yongkiat
GMT+7

I am not sure ifthat a FA lens would not be compatible with a full frame sensor.

There are two types of montion that the SR system compensats for: Rotational and Translational.

Rotational shifts are small angular turns about the "z" axis (extends as a perpendicular out of the sensor plane) or a anglular shift of the "z" axis with respect the camera body. Neither of these would require a larger image circle since the senor would be moving entirely within the image circle.

Translational shifts are motion of the sensor up and down and left and right but the senor orientation within the camera remains the same. In other words the "z" axis keeps its orientation wrt the camera body. This type of motion has the potential of pushing the sensor outside the image circle. However, the amount of compensation that occurs in what is at most 1/4 second exposure would be small and I would find it hard to believe that the sensor would extend outside the range of the image circle. One way to answer this question is to determine if the image circle of the current DA lenes is larger than those that have been designed for cameras that do not have in camera stabilization (ie Nikon). Since companies like Sigma have APS-c only lenes that work on all cameras (ie 7-70mm F2.8-4.5 DC works on Pentax) I am inclined to believe that the image circle is adaquate for bodies with in camera stablization.

Based on that logic, then wouldn't the FA lenses work fine on a Pentax full frame without SR?

So why not build a full frame pentax that uses exsiting KA mount FA lenses for full frame (just reproduce them with new coatings as DFA's) and then also allow the sensor to crop down to the current DA lenses and offer SR on those lenses.

Just a thought.

ahblur said:

Pentax SR
need larger image circle which will need a larger lens for FF.

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Bear in miind that the "image circle" produced by a lens isn't a 100% cutoff at some arbitrary diameter. It's the area beyond which vignetting and sharpness degrade beyond the design parameters, and it's a gradual falloff. It's true that in-body SR could result potentially result in poorer corner rendition, but this would be only be an issue with longer exposures (with the most body movement) and it wouldn't be anywhere near as blatant as, for example, a fisheye lens image with black corners.

Sean Nelson said:

steephill said:

they would have to re-design the FA lenses to take out lead as this
is no longer allowed for the EU market at least. It is not worth the effort.

Click to expand...

The EU ban on lead does not apply to the optics, it applies to the
electronics in the lens. It would be fairly trivial to update the
manufacturing process for the electronic circuits to substitute
non-lead materials, as this is being widely done throughout the
industry.

Click to expand...

No, not trivial. You only have to look as far as apple to see issues with the switch.
http://www.forbrug.dk/presse/nyheder/pressekit/ibookg4/ibook-g4-english/

Thank you
Russell

yesman12 said:

Yes there are factory issues, but that did not prevent them from
quickly licensing the Tamron design and produce this lens in their
factory (I assume) under the Pentax brand.

Click to expand...

The latest info is that the lens is made in Tamron factories, not Pentax.
So your theory is false.

yesman12 said:

Also, if you look at the roadmap there are many DA lenses that are
coming out next year. Is this a design or factory limit? I would
venture both.

Click to expand...

The 17-70, 50-300, 35 Macro, DA Star 200 f/2.8, DA Star 60-250 f/4 and DA Star 300 f/4 were all meant to be released this fall before Christmas. Due to problems with the factories those lenses has been delayed and the release re-scheduled to next year.

yesman12 said:

The FA lens designs are available now…perhaps some updates to them is
all that is needed.

Click to expand...

Again, the FA lenses does not solve the issues with the factory in Vietnam.

--
Take care
R
http://www.flickr.com/photos/raphaelmabo

Sean Nelson said:

The EU ban on lead does not apply to the optics, it applies to the
electronics in the lens. It would be fairly trivial to update the
manufacturing process for the electronic circuits to substitute
non-lead materials, as this is being widely done throughout the
industry.

Click to expand...

Not true. The lens is seen as a total package, and this package is not allowed to contain lead. If you sold the lenses as IKEA sells the furniture - having separate boxes for the lens elements and the barrels with electronics so the user could assemble the lens themselves, then the optics could contain lead. But since lenses are sold as one unit that contains lead, they are not allowed for sale in the EU.
--
Take care
R
http://www.flickr.com/photos/raphaelmabo

yesman12 said:

I saw in an earlier post that the reason Pentax discontinued the FA
lenes was because of Lead restrictions in Europe. These restrications
are known as RoHS and would require a redesign of Lenes. However,
another post indicates that it only applies to electronics and not
glass. I can verify this as my firm manufactures electronics in
Europe and is subject to RoHS.
If lenes are not subject to RoHS, then I would submit that Pentax
should revisit production of these lenes.

Click to expand...

The lenses contains both glass and electronics and are sold as a complete package. Since the lenses contains electronics, they are seen as electronic products and not glassware. Because of this, the lens is not allowed to contain lead neither in the lens elements nor in the electronics.

--
Take care
R
http://www.flickr.com/photos/raphaelmabo

The DA lenses has an image circle that is larger than the APS-C sensor, this allows room for the sensor to move. The longer the lens, the more distance needs the sensor travels to compensate for shake. This is why the DA telephotos has larger image circle than the DA wide angles. DA wide angles will give heavy vignetting on 24x36 bodies, but from DA short telephoto the image circle works on 24x36.
With 24x36 telephoto lens, there wouldn't be enough room for the sensor to move.
For 24x36, Pentax needs to move to in lens SR instead of in body SR.
--
Take care
R
http://www.flickr.com/photos/raphaelmabo

Roland Mabo said:

The lenses contains both glass and electronics and are sold as a
complete package. Since the lenses contains electronics, they are
seen as electronic products and not glassware. Because of this, the
lens is not allowed to contain lead neither in the lens elements nor
in the electronics.

Click to expand...

The RoHS directive applies to electronics (which complete lenses are), but lead in optical glass is expressly exempt from the directive. Which means lenses may contain lead glass.