PC or Mac ?

Unfortunately, Macs need to catch up with more basic things...

http://www.wired.com/news/mac/0,2125,51926,00.html
But thank goodness susceptibility to viruses and stability aren't among them!

There seems to be a lot of drag strip oriented fascination with sheer performance here. Yes, it can make editing go faster but I've never found that ten seconds here or there is such a big deal. Skill does make a real difference in using Photoshop though. And so does taking decent, well exposed and composed photographs in the first place. Macs have a decent, rational easy to understand interface. OS X is quite stable and will only keep improving. PCs work too. It's hard to say one is better than the other (and with respect to PCs there is so much variation the overall argumment is rather meaningless). If you are really into computers and like to tinker by all means buy a PC and tinker away. If you would rather get a computer and just use it and have more time to take pictures, get a Mac.

How about we end this thread--no one is going to "win"!
 
I owned a Mac system for many years but gave up due to expensive-but-'stylish' systems.

The PC is such a huge market that you can get basically anything anywhere at anytime and for a price going from cheap to expensive. Powerful reasons for the PC.

The graphics world uses Macs but that's more to do with computer history than which system is best. The Mac looks more stylish the PC more workmanlike. but you can turn any PC into a verey stylish system if you want. There are some very nice aluminium cases about.

Both systems are easy to use. Printing can be as good on each. You can get the same programs for each that will run as well on each. The 'best' system is the one that suits you.

My view is that if you tossed a coin and bought either you would, barring cost, be as happy.
 
Unfortunately, Macs need to catch up with more basic things...

http://www.wired.com/news/mac/0,2125,51926,00.html
But thank goodness susceptibility to viruses and stability aren't
among them!
LOL My Mac may be slower but, but, but it doesn't get as many viruses and, and, and it doesn't crash.

I apologize. It just seems that the emotional responses tend to come from the Mac people. I find it amussing that people who love Macs are much more emotional about their computers. The people who love PCs tend to be less emotional and repeat this fact or that fact to back up their postion.

I'm running win2k and it almost never has to be restarted. My wifes computer runs 24/7 with win98 and has to be restarted maybe about 2 times per month.
There seems to be a lot of drag strip oriented fascination with
sheer performance here. Yes, it can make editing go faster but I've
never found that ten seconds here or there is such a big deal.
Ten seconds is a long time when you are switching from page to page on the net. I've got a cable modem and most pages come up almost as quick as I can click on a link. I would never want to go back to dial-up speed of taking a break between pages.
Skill does make a real difference in using Photoshop though. And so
does taking decent, well exposed and composed photographs in the
first place. Macs have a decent, rational easy to understand
interface. OS X is quite stable and will only keep improving. PCs
work too. It's hard to say one is better than the other (and with
respect to PCs there is so much variation the overall argumment is
This right here answers my question. I have not used a Mac and so I have to ask for other peoples opinions. The general consenses is that neither is better as far as performance if price isn't a concern.
rather meaningless). If you are really into computers and like to
tinker by all means buy a PC and tinker away. If you would rather
get a computer and just use it and have more time to take pictures,
get a Mac.

How about we end this thread--no one is going to "win"!
 
Dan

the problem i see is that you made statements that sounded like you
made them from experience but now you state clearly that you dont
know but just simply restate what you may have heard somehwere else.
Mike: I think this has been a long thread at cross purposes. This is my last post to it. I am going out to take bad pictures with my excellent EOS D30. This is, after all, the Canon SLR forum.

-Dan-
 
  1. 1 We have save approx $50,000 in hardware costs
  2. 2 We have saved approx $100,000 in salary costs (easier and
cheaper to find PC users then to train peopel to use Mac's)
  1. 3 Today's PC's are much faster then Mac's at most tasks
Mind
  1. 4 I still miss my Mac
Heart

I'm using a Dell laptop P-III 1 GHz with 512 Mb Ram - 20 Gb Hd,
Firewire, CDR-DVD combo, Zip 250, GeForce2Go 32 Mb graphic card on
15" LCD at 1400x1150 (but I connect my LaCie 19" CRT at home - much
better for Photo Editing). I'm running Win2000.
At my brother's (architect) workshop there are 4 Macs (from first
PowerPc models to G3 to G4 - not the newer) and sometimes I use
them to finish some of my photos they use as a background for
3D-rendering.
As someone stated in another thread, Macs aren't "better" but
surely are "cooler".
I can't blame my Dell for its performance (indeed it is a bit
faster than most of their Macs...) or its stability (it crashes
almost never...) but after using a Mac for a while, when I open my
PC I feel like I miss something... icons, text, color-management,
general appereance, all seems worse and less eye-friendly on PC.
Not to mention the supercool Mac OS-X...

Of course these aren't rational reasons (and this is why now I
don't jump to the Mac side, it costs me too much), but life'd be
too grey without emotions....

Marco
Is there a rational reason for preferring a Canon over a Nikon? No ofcourse not. Like buying a car . I have a G4 desktop and a buddy of mine has a home built PC with windows XP. He says he loves his machine but always complains about all sorts of things it does. The most annoying thing is how long his machine takes to shut down. With mine it's almost instant.
 
What are you used to using? Use the platform that you know already - that way you can get work done. I tell people I use a Mac so I can get stuff done. They take it the wrong way thinking I'm saying Mac is better - it is for me because I've been using it for so long. The Windows systems at work seem cumbersome and "broken" to me.

If you are a complete newbie to computers, they say that the Mac platform is easier but I don't know because when I was a newbie to computers, all I had available were Mac SE's and some strange IBM thingies with black screens and amber or green text (if I remember correctly).

All in all, it doesn't matter as long as you know your way around it. No matter what one you get, today's computers are fast - period. Either one you can juice up for more speed. Don't listen to the folks who will tell you there is no software available for the Mac. I ask them what do you want to do and I can point to a software app. for the Mac that will do it (with the exception of an obsecure task here and there). An exception would be availability of games - but we are serious workers involved in image editing, aren't we? :-)
Simple question with a lot of parts. Consider price, speed, ease
of use, available software, and final output.
 
I beg to differ. While I agree that you can not convince someone to change to a different platform, I did learn that my assumption was right. I wanted to make sure that I wasn't missing anything that I might think was important before I invested money building a dual processor PC. My assumption was that the Mac didn't offer any performance advantage as far as photo editing is concerned.

I have learned that if I choose to go into multi-media then I had better give Mac a very serious look and I will if I decide to get into that in the future.

Thank you all for giving a lot of opinions with almost no flaming. I know now that I will not be "missing" anything for what I use a computer for by staying with a PC. I can now just wait a few months for the price of the new dual processor motherboards and the current Althon MPs to come down in price. Then I can build my new PC for photo editing.

To be perfectly honest I really did not want to change but I would have if there was good reason to.
 
I recall the general rule is anything longer than 1 second is too long and people start becoming impatient. I bought cable so I wouldn't have to wait. I've heard people say you don't need a fast machine to surf the web, but I notice a huge difference between my old 1.1Ghz Celeron and my 1.6Ghz Athlon...HUGE. I suspect it is mostly due to the faster UDMA disks and possibly the memory access. Once you are used to the speed it is hard to go back.

I hope Apple gets this fixed because they do make interesting stuff and I'd hate to lose them.

Danny
There seems to be a lot of drag strip oriented fascination with
sheer performance here. Yes, it can make editing go faster but I've
never found that ten seconds here or there is such a big deal.
Ten seconds is a long time when you are switching from page to page
on the net. I've got a cable modem and most pages come up almost
as quick as I can click on a link. I would never want to go back
to dial-up speed of taking a break between pages.
 
I remember the old days, browsing the web from a modem on a Pentium. I would keep multiple windows open so that one could be loading while I was reading another one. It took an intricate dance to avoid waiting. There were even programs out there that did this automatically...but their lack of smarts could actually slow things down. Thank goodness those days are over.

Danny
I hope Apple gets this fixed because they do make interesting stuff
and I'd hate to lose them.

Danny
There seems to be a lot of drag strip oriented fascination with
sheer performance here. Yes, it can make editing go faster but I've
never found that ten seconds here or there is such a big deal.
Ten seconds is a long time when you are switching from page to page
on the net. I've got a cable modem and most pages come up almost
as quick as I can click on a link. I would never want to go back
to dial-up speed of taking a break between pages.
 
Once again, so many problems with Windows stuff is because there are so many choices...so many bad and good ones and so many compatibility issues that arise because of this. But, reliable software (actually some of the same software that is available on the Mac) and hardware is available for PCs and if you buy the right stuff you should have no problems. Adaptec EasyCD creater (Roxio now) is child's play for burning CDs for example. Pinnacle and others make several firewire editing cards that work similar to iMovie. It is out there, but there are just a lot of holes to fall into. You can avoid the holes buy buying a Mac.

Danny
Moviemaking on iMac shows PCs need to catch up
By BOB LEVITUS
Copyright 2002 Houston Chronicle

I have had the new top-of-the-line iMac for almost a month. Of
course I loved it. I'm a Mac guy, and there's nothing about it not
to love.

Even the inconvenience of the ports being on the back of the
snow-globe base didn't bother me (other reviewers have complained
about it, but I think it's a nonissue). It's cool to look at,
blazingly fast, nearly silent in spite of its internal fan, and has
a 15-inch flat-panel display that's as sharp, bright and vivid as
any I've seen. And the stainless steel arm, which lets you adjust
the screen's height, depth and angle with one finger, is perhaps
the slickest piece of industrial design magic ever seen in a
personal computer.

There is no doubt in my mind this is the best (and best-looking),
fastest, most capable, iMac of all time, as well as the best iMac
value ever. This computer is so fine that even Windows users lust
for them.

Now allow me to reintroduce my neighbor, Dave (not his real name),
whom you first met in my Sept. 22, 2000, column.

When my neighbor saw my iMovies, he immediately ordered a board and
software that he said would let him do that on his PC. I told him
he should get a Mac. A month ago I asked him how his moviemaking
was coming. He looked properly chagrined as he said, "I haven't
figured out how to make it work yet."

I lent him the new iMac for a few days and issued a challenge.
Since he still, 18 months later, had not completed a single movie
project on his Dell, I told him to try making a movie, an audio CD
and a DVD on this iMac. And to make things interesting, I offered
him no assistance or support -- I told him to look in Mac Help if
he had questions.

Three days later I interviewed Dave.

On the first day, he unpacked the iMac, set it up in five minutes
and burned two audio CDs with iTunes. He said he never needed to
refer to Mac Help and that this whole project was "no problem
whatsoever."

On the second day, he used iDVD to create a pair of slide shows
using existing digital photos and burned his first DVD. I watched
it later, and it didn't stink. In fact, most people would no doubt
find it impressive. (I'm so jaded.)

On the third day, he borrowed my Canon ZR-25 camcorder and a tape
of my son's last basketball game. I handed him the camera, manual
and FireWire cable, and told him he was own his own.

By the end of the day he had imported raw footage into iMovie,
edited it, added music and titles, then burned it onto a DVD with
iDVD.

As I scribbled furiously, Dave's long-suffering wife added, "He
swore less at the Mac than he does at his Dell."

Dave then said he had created more multimedia in three days with
the iMac than he had in 18 months with his Dell. He only opened the
Help file a couple of times. He concluded, "The hardest part was
getting the iMac back in the box."

Before departing I asked if he'd consider a Mac next time. He
replied: "Absolutely. In fact, if we hadn't wasted so much money
trying to transform that Dell into a multimedia computer, I'd get
one today."

It was music to my ears.
 
Well, I think I'm as objective about this as anyone can be since for the last 10 years I've been using PC's with just about every iteneration of Windows, including XP Professional.

I purchased a new iMac a few weeks ago as I needed a computer to put into a small space and I did think it looks cool, since then I am a converted Mac user!

First, the Mac is just plain more enjoyable to use, yes you can do anything on a PC that you can do on a Mac but on the Mac it's just more fun.

The OS X operating system is teriffic as far as stability (so far) and beauty, I much prefer it to Windows XP, I'm quite surprised than Microsoft was not able to make an operating system as elegant as OS X, considering their funds and talent.

So now I have the iMac and a PowerMac at home & I'm getting one for work next week.

Certainly you can accomplish anything you want on a PC, you will have to get used to not playing the Processor spped game of Intel/AMD, the fastest Mac now is the dual 1gig which believe me is plenty fast.

Oh, I also had to replace some expensive software, my Mac version of Photoshop 7 arrives this week.

In the end I'm having loads more fun with the Mac, after all isn't that whats' it all about?
 
Greg,

I have been a PC user for about 15 years. My first PC was an 8086 processsor running at 4Mhz with 512k (that's right 512k not 512M) of ram. It had dual 5.25" floppies and no hard drive. (I tried to install a hand crank to speed it up but it didn't help!!)

I now use a P3 1000 with 768Mb ram, dual 40g PC100 hd, ATI 64M video card, with USB, Firewire and SCSI (the SCSI is for my 2 scanners). I calibrate my 17" trinitron monitor with Optical and have a second (15") monitor on an ATI 16M card for photoshop's pallettes. I use Canon S800 and BJW8500 and Epson 1280 printers.

I had to reload my old OS (win 98) so many times I lost count! Since loading Windows Me I have had far fewer crashes. The computer also boots in about half the time!

Three years ago I was issued a G3 Powerbook (300Mhz) with 192Mb ram. I liked it so much I bought a used G3 266 (beige). I have put in an ATI 64M video card, 768Mb ram, USB and Firewire cards. The newer Macs come with the high end innards but my old beige tower didn't.

I have an Apple Colorsync 20" monitor (trinitron tube) also calibrated with Optical and an Apple 17" for photoshop palettes.

I was always of the school that a computer is a computer. That Macs were simply overpriced idiot-proofed machines with a simplified front end.

That opinion has changed since working with the Mac. Although my PC has a MUCH faster clock speed and is much newer, the old beige G3 blows it away when it comes to photoshop. Color management is also MUCH better (more reliable and controlable) with the Mac. Prints are more consistant. And networking is easier as well.

The PC boots substantally faster and there are more games available for it. As fas as working software I run MS Office, Photoshop 6 (soon to be 7), Lotus Notes and Internet Explorer on both machines.

I have 3 PCs (P3 1000, AMD duron 900 and pentium 266) and two Macs (G3 power pc and a G4 titanium notebook) networked using ethernet for the desktops and wireless (Airport) for the Laptop. The Macs and PCs talk to eachother with Dave networking software.

People here have said that Macs are not upgradealble? Nonsense!!!! I upgraded my G3 PowerPC with a modern ATI video card, installed USB and Firewire and will next upgrade the processor to a G4 500.

For digital imaging the Mac definately wins. The reason? Colorsync. Although I calibrate both systems regularly (and use the same printers for both PC and Mac) the Mac provides the best and most reliable color. This reason alone outweighs any other benifit.

For business applications and games I would reccomend a PC as they are cheaper. But if you're doing print work you really should consider the new Macs...they're fantastic.

Two cents from a guy who uses both systems.

Oh...I forgot..this is a digital photo website...I shoot the D60 and EOS1d and started in Digital in 1991 with a tethered three shot back on my Toyo 45G.

Isn't technology great!!!

David
 
I use a dual 1GHz PPC using OS X and have to say I seldom wait for it on single processes and batch processes rip. The OS X kernel is completely multi-threaded and does a great job of balancing the loads.

Steven
I'm a PC user, and within the last two years have been using
nothing but dual CPUs system. I have had my dual p3 1GHz + 1G RAM
for about a year and a half now and it should serve me well for
another 8-12 months. I can't see myself going back to single CPU
unless I want to upgrade my system every 12 months.

I don't know what the cost/performance of a Dual CPU MAC system
compared to PC, but I imagine PC has the advatage in this arena.

Do we need Dual CPU systems? If you work with 16bits linear TIF
files at are 18MB each or encode lots of AVI to Mpeg2 or dVix then
you never have enough computing power.

This is a Digital Camera forum, so you understand the logic that
everyone wants more megapixels, but most don't realize the
computing power that you will need to satisfy that pixel hunger.

Ask yourself this question, will the computer you bought today be
able to process images sufficiently with the digicam you want to
have 1-2 years from now? You don't want to have to upgrade your
computer to keep up with your new camera.

Dual CPU systems are not for everyone, but if you can afford it or
build your own at reasonable cost, its the way to go.
 
I've decided to go Mac next time around. Working at a college, I get an educator discount, so here's what I found:

First, while a Mac IS more expensive, when you go to a mainstream manufacturer, and configure units similarly, it's not much more expensive. When I compared a PowerMac 733 to a Dell P4 1.8 (Dell has slightly faster processor) the Mac was $1252, the Dell was $1263. Also, the Mac comes standard with 2 firewire ports that the Dell doesn't and has built-in dual monitor support. I deliberately configured them both with 256 meg ram, 40 gig hard drives, etc. You can bounce back and forth with options, but the new Macs simply are not much (if at all) more expensive than similarly equipped PC's from mainstream manufacturers.

Yes, I understand that I can build my own box for less than I can purchase a Mac, but I don't want to build my own box. This comes back to the issue of do you want to be a PC tech or do you want to use the computer?

There is an inherent sneer in some of the responses that indicates, "well, if you're a moron who can't master PC's, then yes, you should get a Mac." I disagree with this. I owned old pickups and worked on them myself for years, and yeah, it cost me less than the new pickup with the extended warranty and the service agreement plan that means I don't have to lift the hood. It saves me money in the long run, though, because my time is more valuable than the cost of the agreement. Yeah, it's great to be able to work on your car, but, do you want to be a mechanic, or do you want to get from one place to another? I still remember t-shirts that were very popular among the PC crowd in the early eighties that said "Real men don't use mice."

Ease of use is also a key component in relation to speed. If I take four more steps to do a task, does the greater inherent speed of the system really make any difference?

Although you didn't mention it, I really have a problem with the new XP licensing agreement, which gives Microsoft the right to search your hard drive. XP also shuts itself down if you make too many system changes. I've avoided XP, and intend to continue avoiding it. Microsoft has started doing things that disturb me. For example, they pulled a "feature" out of the last release of Internet Explorer called "smart tags", due to serious protests. It turned text in any browser into a link to a manufacturer who would pay Microsoft advertising money. For example, if Kodak payed a fee to Microsoft, it could turn every instance of the word "photograph" at any site into a hotlink to Kodak's web site. I just found out that Microsoft network has been attaching hotmail advertisements to the bottom of my email messages (I'm talking about my paid MSN account, not a free hotmail account). Microsoft has just done too much of this junk lately. I don't trust them.

As to software availability: I use Office (would use something else if I didn't have to deal with the compatibility issue), Photoshop, a web browser and file management utilities. Yeah, there is more software for the PC, but is there software you need that isn't available for the Mac?

All the mainstream stuff is available for Mac, except some games. Gaming isn't a big deal to me, so I don't worry about that.

Your final output will be more printer than system dependent, although if you're going to a service bureau (I don't) I have been told that Macs are more consistent.

What you purchase is, of course, your business. I've used PC's ever since there was such a thing as a PC (first was an 8086 IBM in DOS mode), but I've decided to go Mac next time around. Actually, I started with an Atari 800, but that's getting way back there.
Here is my original question and it asked for much more then ease
of use. Ease of use is only 20% of the question. It seems obvious
that the Mac is still easier to use overall but that is actually
the least important to me out of the 5 parts of my question.

Simple question with a lot of parts. Consider price, speed, ease of
use, available software, and final output.
 
I can't for the life of me see why this would be so .. the software for both platforms ia absolutely identical. At one time Macs were better for graphics because all the best software was written only for Macs but today that is not true. in fact graphics programs are releasef first for Windows then later for Mac
I have used both and find no difference
I've used Macs for 11 years and pc's for 7 years. The Mac is
definately much more enjoyable to use. You asked about price, etc.
When all is said and done, it's the experience you have on a tool
that you probably use almost as much as your camera if not more. I
spend a lot of time tweaking my photos on the mac and I love it.
It's so intuitive. It's a joy to work on and on the other hand the
PC's are more work to me. One thing I can say, everytime I show PC
users what the Mac can do, they always get an envious look on their
face and start asking about the details of getting into one.

Once you've had Mac, you won't go back.

James
 
wow it's even more fun to watch Mac addicts scramle to bring up arguments that havent been valid in 10 years . It is NO HARDER to set up a PC than it is a Mac no matter what YOU claim You are just plain wrong
It's always fun to see the PC-brethen defend their choice of
platform by claiming they're "independent" and "wanting to learn
about computers." True, on a Mac one didn't have to learn about a
GUI, SCSI, PostScript, RISC, USB, FireWire, Ethernet, ... just to
get things to work. In a surprising feat of "think about the user
first" Apple decided to build these novel solutions straight into
the box, no BIOS Set-up or IRQs to mess with, thank you very much.

By "learn about computers", did you mean learning about the OS?
Well, the core of Mac OS X is in the open source (the Darwin
kernel), what about Windows XP? Oh, Linux, you say? Ever heard of
Linux/PPC?

What exactly about computing you weren't able to learn on a Power Mac?
 
Simple question with a lot of parts. Consider price, speed, ease
of use, available software, and final output.
Ok Greg,

Coming into this late.... Here's my 2, or maybe 3 Cents:

1) For anyone who has come up on a Mac, Or a PC it's going to be very difficult for them to change, or admit the other is more capable...

2) That being said, It's A PC WORLD.. Go into any major comptuer store and there are 30 asiles of sofware, and accessories for the PC, and 1 for the Mac

3) Mac was what the early designers all used, so the stigma that it is better for creative design sticks with it to this day... Albiet no longer true.

4) Performance wise... Again there is, NO CONTEST... the PC wins. Any P4 or Athlon XP will destroy a Mac interms of speed. Your workflow will always be faster on a PC..

4b) My Custom built, Overclocked Athlon XP Runs @ 1980MHz. (A 250MHz Overclock), with 1 Gig of DDR333 running close to a 400MHz FSB. It has 4 hardrives running Raid 0, With A Over 200 gig capacity.

It will open Photoshop 6, in 2 seconds, and change.... Any Mac users like to compare..... I thought not...

5) Versatility, and Customization. Again absolutlely no contest. You can get a PC with any software, in ANY Hardware configuratioin you could imagine... From a Gazillion companies..... You can get a Mac from Apple period with what they say......

5a) The Infamous Cinema display... I have a Sony GDMF-520 21" .22 pitch Flat screen (gorgeous), display. That is rated the best monitor in the world... I'll take it over the Cinema anytime.

5b) And to boot, Like I do you can build your own custom PC with more horsepower that you could ever dream of with a case, and hardware, and peripherals, and software that you choose. Try doing that with a Mac...

6) Price PC wins easily, there are So many companies offering loaded PC's at bargin prices...

7) Final Output.... A Draw... Each is Capable.... This is more up to the person at the controls.

Bottom line, If you have a Mac now, and like it stick with it.. It certainly will do the job.

But if you are starting out, go with a PC, it's advantages are too numerous to ignore..

Hope this helps.

Tony B.
 

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