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Is K10D For Experienced Shooters Only?

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oba1

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Hi all you K10D lovers,

I'm trying to decide on which DSLR to go for. I own a Nikkormat, haven't used it for years, own three D-compacts.

I read reviews, get more and more confused, but somehow I have my focus on 10D, good price and solid, but here are some possible problems:

Some reviews say nice camera, but IQ is bad, you have to post process the pictures more or less always. I have also read that it is complicated to use, so my question is: Should I forget about K10D, and settle for something else that may be easier to grow with?

Thanks!

Oba
--
oba
CAN Sfourfive, Ssixzero, Pan FZone
 
The image quality is great. Read the reviews more carefully -- the complaint is about the sharpening algorithm, which makes edges seem less crisp when you view at a per-pixel level. You won't see this at all when printing to less than large-poster size or when viewing the whole picture on a screen.

But what's more, although it's not documented as such, the camera's Bright tone curve mode actually seems to alter the sharpening too -- making even that small complaint go away. (Since this isn't documented and since the "problem" is hard to notice in the first place.) And really, if you want to be using the images straight from the camera with minimal processing, you want to be using Bright mode anyway (because the Natural tone curve looks, actually, un*naturally flat).

As for ease of use -- don't mistake initial complexity for difficulty. The K10D is actually a joy to use because most of the things you might want to change while shooting are literally at your fingertips rather than buried in a menu (or not available at all).
 
The K10D is obviously far to advanced for some reviewers who can't change the image tone setting for JPEG's from Natural to Bright. It is actually not that complicated. First, you need to locate the Menu-button. It is at the left of the back LCD. Now, you need to press this and the menu screen appears. Now, you need to find the Natural/Image tone setting, this is actually on the first page in the menu - illustrated by two tone curves. A straight line = Natural, a bended line with colours = Bright. Now scroll down to this using the 4-way controll, press OK and now you can change the option from Natural to Bright, press OK to confirm the change.

As you can see, this is not complicated at all - but obviously far too complicated for the reviewers who believes that the K10D image quality is "bad". Shocking!

Now, the K10D comes with two image tones. Now, this is a very complicated concept - for reviewers that is.

Natural is the default setting. This is for JPEG's that should be post process.

Bright is the alternate setting. This is for great looking JPEG's straight-out-of-the box, JPEG's that you wish to print directly without doing any post processing.

Now, since rewiewers simply can't handle DSLR's and set options in the menu, they have totally missed this option.

If you know about photography, then the K10D is very easy to use.

It doesn't have scene modes or picture modes, but if you know what aperture does and what shutter does, then the K10D is an ideal camera. It has several working modes especially designed for photographers with knowledge of aperture and shutter. You don't have to spin through endless menues, you have program mode, aperture- and shutter-priority mode in one mode, the camera switches automatically dependant on if you set aperture or shutter or none.
If you don't know about aperture and shutter, the K10D may be too hard.

But if you know about aperture and shutter, then I find it much less confusing and much faster in operation and manouverability than those scene-mode DSLR's.
--
Take care
R
http://www.flickr.com/photos/raphaelmabo
 
Using the camera is no more complicated than using a film SLR. Being digital you must set options that don't exist with film cameras and options that didn't exist prior to digital. For example, in film, if you wanted to shoot at more than one ISO, or ASA if you're old, you carried two bodies. With your DSLR you set the parameters for the ISO in the menu. Ditto for color correction for light. You either picked a color corrected film and carried more than one body or you used colored filters. And, my film cameras didn't have built in light meters so the camera was more simple but the light meter that I carried wasn't. And, I'm afraid I'm so old that autofocus was new to me.

Read the manual, set the menus, and go to work.

You can go to PBase and see a plethora of pictures taken with every camera model and decide for yourself whether the image quality of any of them is bad. I did that some years ago when I wanted my first DSLR and came to the conclusion that while there were differences, as there was with film, none had poor image quality.

The difference in ease of use with DSLR cameras would probably revolve around "modes". Some cameras have modes for portrait, sports, night shooting, landscape, and so forth. If you want that, don't get a K10D. If you understand depth-of-field, shutter speed, and aperture, then why have modes.

--
Patrick T. Kelly
Oaxaca, Mexico
 
Even if you don't know about Aperture and Exposure this body should be easy to use. Just stick to the green and you'll be fine.

Then, after you've Wiki'd aperture and exposure you can start to explore. You can't beat this camera at this price, especially not with the $100 factory rebate. And if you're still not sure, go for the K100 Super. With the rebate the kit comes in at under $400!!! That's a steal.
 
I'm really still a newbie to photography, but find the 10D very easy to use. The shooting choices are amazing, and as far as IQ, just look around on this forum and you will find some really excellent IQ shots. Great camera in just about every way possible.
--
'This is more serious than I thought.....but it is still fun!
http://www.pbase.com/rupertdog Take a look- It's Free!
 
Hi folks, thanks a lot for your good and fast answers!

I do know about aperture and shutter values, I so old that I remember the days of manual light measuring, turning the aperture ring and setting the shutter, changing film in a robe in a dark closet to "change" the ASA value. In those days when we were young and poor, we dreamt about F5's, Leicas and Rolleiflexes.
Now the cameras are different, but the fundamentals are the same.

The new thing now is "live view", I'm aware that the K10D does not have that feature, but say, does the "digital preview" more or less give the same functionality? By the way, how important is live view? When I shoot with my compact digital camera, I more often than not use the viewfinder, why? Don't know.
Thanks again for participating in this thread.

oba
--
oba
CAN Sfourfive, Ssixzero, Pan FZone
 
I just have to add my two cents worth:

I am along time shooter of film SLR's and couldn't wait for DSLR's to come within my financial reach. I had my eye on the Nikon D80 when I came across a review of the K10. I was immediately impressed with its feature set. I agonized over this decision beyond description (waiting for my financial advisor to tire of it and tell me to just get something so she wouldn't have to keep listening to me talk about SR, seals, build quality etc.). I finally got to actually hold the K10 and a D80 at the same time. After that moment there was no question and I ordered my K10 (thank you B&H!).

The other day a friend of mine had her D80 and I asked to look at it, looking for confirmation of my decision. The very first thing that I noticed was the mode dial, and my reaction was 'how amaturish'. As an earlier poster said ... when you have f-stop, shutter speed, ISO etc. all at your finger tips, why bother with portait etc. modes? Those are just clutter to me. However ... make that HOWEVER, you may find it a comfort to not have to worry about f-stop, shutter speed etc. If you want an expensive high quality P&S, then get something like the D40. If you want a camera that even a professional will stop and look at, then go for the 10D ... or wait for the next generation. My advice is that if you want good Christmas pictures, now is the time to buy. I also have to add that the camera is only part of the purchase. Consider the lens very carefully (some say save money on the camera and spend it on the glass). Also, don't forget the lesser things ... at least one extra battery and several 2GB cards (maybe 4GB if you plan on shooting RAW), and a card reader.

Hope this helps.
--

Two places I'd rather be ... on the road with my kit and my lady, or in my favorite store trying to satisfy my LBA.
 
The K10 is the most user friendly camera I have experienced. Yes, it has many dials and lots of customization options which you can ignore if they confuse you at first - after customizing however you can expereince a camera optimized foru your preferences and very easy to use.

It does not have scene modes but gives you very good tools to make and experiement with your own decisions.
 
oba1 said:
The new thing now is "live view", I'm aware that the K10D does not
have that feature, but say, does the "digital preview" more or less
give the same functionality? By the way, how important is live view?
When I shoot with my compact digital camera, I more often than not
use the viewfinder, why? Don't know.
Click to expand...
Digital preview is just a way to take the picture and review it without recording it. To me, one of the most trivial features ever. Live view of course, allows you to compose your picture on the back LCD, and that is not supported by the K10D. If you're used to using the viewfinder, the live view is (mostly) a gimmick. There are times you might want to compose your shot while holding the camera over your head or when the camera is so close to the ground it's hard to get your eye to the viewfinder, but I wouldn't buy a camera based on that one criterion. All other things being equal though, I'd take it.

Happy camera hunting and good luck! :-)

Tim
 
Really simple to use if you already use a film reflex camera. You can select Aperture priority mode or full manual mode, select an iso speed and use it exactly as your film camera. Later on you can discover that there are many interesting features, common to all digital cameras, like automatic bracketing, priority on aperture and speed (iso adjustment), many flash modes, white balance adjustement (which was made with filters in the age of film cameras...) but you can ignore them at the beginning.

I have read also many discussions about the in-body conversion to Jpeg, which is sometimes said to be weaker than on other camera. I didn't see that with the default settings it was that bad. Anyway, everybody who want to get the most out of his camera, shoot in raw mode and use a computer to post process in order to have specific settings for white balance, sharpening and noise reduction; This is true for all camera makes, Pentax or Nikon or Canon.
--
jpgoube
 
The Nikkormat side of your brain will like all of the manual features, though you may find a few of them weird for a little while (like being able to change ISO between shots...) And despite all the criticism about high ISO results, they will absolutely destroy anything you could have shot at ISO 1600 with your Nikkormat 40 years ago :-)

The "I don't want to deal with this" side of your brain will like the green mode and full program. This also makes it handy to hand to other people and have them not ruin the shot – something hard to do with the Nikkormat... Oddly, I find the green mode simpler than dealing with eight or nine mode choices, since I don't have to pick the best one...

The "I want to take good pictures" side of your brain (the little-mentioned third half...) will just really like the results.

-Eric
 
Roland Mabo said:
The K10D is obviously far to advanced for some reviewers who can't
change the image tone setting for JPEG's from Natural to Bright. It
is actually not that complicated. First, you need to locate the
Menu-button. It is at the left of the back LCD. Now, you need to?
[...]
Click to expand...
Cute. But you'll note that neither the manual or the camera menus themselves mention that the tone curve option will affect sharpness.
 
Matthew Miller said:
Roland Mabo said:
The K10D is obviously far to advanced for some reviewers who can't
change the image tone setting for JPEG's from Natural to Bright. It
is actually not that complicated. First, you need to locate the
Menu-button. It is at the left of the back LCD. Now, you need to?
[...]
Click to expand...
Cute. But you'll note that neither the manual or the camera menus
themselves mention that the tone curve option will affect sharpness.
Click to expand...
page 120 of K10d manual:

Setting the Image Tone

Set the basic color tone of pictures. The default setting is (Natural).

Natural: Images are finished naturally and suitable for retouching.
Bright: Images are finished brightly, with high contrast and sharpness.

[end quote]

Of course reviewers might not even get to see the manual - or if they do, they certainly don't have time to study every word. But camera owners tend to make the time, if they are wise :)

RP
Click to expand...
 
richardplondon said:
page 120 of K10d manual:
Setting the Image Tone

Set the basic color tone of pictures. The default setting is (Natural).

Natural: Images are finished naturally and suitable for retouching.
Bright: Images are finished brightly, with high contrast and sharpness.

[end quote]
Click to expand...
Okay, so I'm slightly wrong because it does mention it. But, not in the the topic heading nor the first sentence -- which supposedly gives an overview of the option. And when it does mention it, it really doesn't at all make clear that this "high contrast and sharpness" affects something other than the default levels of the separate contrast and sharpness options.
richardplondon said:
Of course reviewers might not even get to see the manual - or if they
do, they certainly don't have time to study every word. But camera
owners tend to make the time, if they are wise :)
Click to expand...
I definitely read that section, and I wouldn't have guessed at its actual effect if I hadn't learned the details from people here. And honestly, I don't think people here would even have looked as hard if the review hadn't called attention to it as a problem.
Click to expand...
 
Sorry, I didn't mean to be snide or glib (love those words - so hard to define, so easy to recognise!)

I have always felt that the basic idea, that Normal is for an "un-enhanced" shot and that Bright is to a degree "output-ready", was pretty clear and well publicised.

Maybe I am influenced by the rumpus on this forum at the time the K10d review came out here (also known as "the Just war", from the Highly Recommended (just) rating, which many thought was due to assessing Normal rather than Bright JPGs).

One other aspect is that a contrastier tone curve can affect the perception of sharpness, distinct from sharpening algorithms. "Bright" images would have looked more crisp-edged just from that, sharpening aside.

RP
 
I think live view is mostly a battery waster (except for those conditions mentioned above).
 
After reading all the reviews, the very first thing I did was go into the menus and turn sharpening up full. I've never regretted it (though now I'm shooting only in RAW). Even with the 18-55 kit lens they're plenty sharp at normal sizes (e.g., 8x10).
 
Tjänare Oba,

Just wanted to give you my 2 cents on this as I went throught the same thought process cause I had C*non A-1 before going digital.

I am pretty much a beginner in photography and I decided on the K10D. Many people on this forum gave me great advice and the best advice I got was to buy the camera that I felt the best with, whether it's C*anon, N*kon, Oly, etc... If you buy the "best camera" but that you actually don't really like the feel of it, it's not going to take pictures!

After trying out most of the other cameras I felt that the K10D was the best fit for me even if it's not an entry level DSLR and I'm a beginner.

Finally, the buttons, menus, etc, you'll get use to after using it twice max. It's pretty intuitive so if you've used anything electronic in the past few years, there should be no issues learning the configuration.

Worse case, you can log on to this forum and ask as people here usually don't get mad at recurring questions from noobs!

Good luck on your choice,

Hey da,
--
Mart
 
The IQ is not bad. It is excelent in Raw, and good (but not excelent, according to some people taste) in Jpeg. Unless you routinely print larger than A3 in jpeg without post processing, there is no issue. Even if you do, whether there is an issue or not is controversial.

As far as begin a complex camera, it certainly has tons of buttons. These are extremely well designed, and easy to use, as long as you know what you are trying to achieve. That said, you do not have to use these buttons, in automatic mode, the camera works just as well as the K100D, if not better.

I wouldn't say you have to be an expert to use this camera. Not right from the start. It is a great camera to learn, as long as you are willing to learn. But if you are not intrested in controlling the details of the picture taking process by yourself, and would rather let the camera make decisions for you, you should probably look elsewhere, because a lot of what makes the K10D a good camera would be useless to you. The K100D (super), or on the nikon side, the D40(x) or D80 would be better suited.

If you are interested in detailed control, though, no matter how little you know at the beginning, I think the K10D is a great camera, In large part precisely because it is easy to use.
 
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