SB-800 Diffuser vs. Lightsphere II

nrg_alpha · Nov 10, 2007

I just picked up and started playing with my SB-800 flash.

While the Nikon diffuser cap does soften shadows somewhat, it leaves me wishing the cap diffused light even more.. (I even followed the manual's suggestion of using the built-in wide angle adapter in conjunction with the Diffuser cap to maximize light diffusion.

Since the beloved search functionality is down, I was wondering from those of you who have played with SB-800 with the diffuser cap and compared it with the Lightsphere II. While bouncing flash off the ceiling yields less harsh results than a direct aim, I am more interested in the comparison of the Nikon Diffuser cap vs the lightsphere II when 'aimed directly at the subject' as opposed to bouncing off a ceiling (as not all shooting possibilities will allow ceiling bouncing..).

If there is anyone who has conducted tests of directly aimed Diffusion cap shots vs Lightsphere II shots (no ceiling bounce shots), I would be interested in seeing them. I'm just curious as to how effective the lightsphere II is in real world sample shots (and not images from Gary Phong's website).

I'm posting this in both the D3/D2/D1 and D300/D200/D100 forums, just in case.

Thanks in advance.

Cheers,

NRG
--
F/8 and be there.
http://www.pbase.com/nrg_alpha/

davhol · Nov 10, 2007

The search function seems to be down a lot on dpreview. However, you can always go to google and type " site:dpreview.com" and it'll give you all you want!

If you want to spend only a couple of dollars and about 30 minutes of time, you can make a VERY GOOD diffuser that, arguably, is better than either the SB-800 diffuser or the GF brands. Check out Chuck Gardner's tutorials at:
http://super.nova.org/DPR/DIY01/

Chuck used to post to the Lighting forum but has, I guess, decided to "move on" because there was so much arguing about whether was better than (just like we see here on this forum)... sad. Nevertheless, his tutorial on diffusers is GREAT (IMO)! I make these up and give them away to other photogs. who are "jealous" and who then love the way they work.
--
Dave

Arkayem · Nov 10, 2007

When you point a flash at a subject using a diffuser (any diffuser), it will only soften the light if you are very close to the subject. Same thing as a soft box in studio work. As you move farther and farther from a diffuser, it looks more and more like a point source of light, which creates very harsh shadows. Beyond about five feet, the LS II begins to make really harsh shadows when used without bouncing. The larger the diffuser, the farther away you can get and still get soft light. With a large studio soft box, you can get useful softening out about 15 feet.

Bouncing has the effect of creating a huge diffuser out of the room, so you can be a long way from your subject and still get soft light.

I use an LS II on my SB800, and without bouncing (like outdoors), beyond five feet you might as well remove it and shoot with the bare flash. All it does after five feet is reduce the power of your flash.

Indoors, with a white ceiling, the LS II really works well. I always use it with the top removed so a lot of the flash energy will go up and hit the ceiling. It sends light in all directions, and greatly reduces harsh shadows. The light on the subject becomes very soft. It works far better than the little diffuser that came with the SB800.

--
Russ

TOF guy · Nov 10, 2007

The lightsphere works much better.
--
Thierry

nrg_alpha · Nov 10, 2007

davhol said:
The search function seems to be down a lot on dpreview. However, you
can always go to google and type " site:dpreview.com" and it'll give
you all you want!

Yeah, someone in the D3/D2/D1 forum mentioned this as well.. Nice to know about using google to search forums like this for information.

davhol said:
If you want to spend only a couple of dollars and about 30 minutes of
time, you can make a VERY GOOD diffuser that, arguably, is better
than either the SB-800 diffuser or the GF brands. Check out Chuck
Gardner's tutorials at:
http://super.nova.org/DPR/DIY01/

Thanks for the link, Dave! I'll definitely look into this DIY bounce diffuser. It doesn't sound expensive to make.. so if it doesn't work out to my satisfaction, well, it didn't cost too much

Cheers,

NRG

--
F/8 and be there.
http://www.pbase.com/nrg_alpha/

nrg_alpha · Nov 10, 2007

Arkayem said:
When you point a flash at a subject using a diffuser (any diffuser),
it will only soften the light if you are very close to the subject.
Same thing as a soft box in studio work. As you move farther and
farther from a diffuser, it looks more and more like a point source
of light, which creates very harsh shadows. Beyond about five feet,
the LS II begins to make really harsh shadows when used without
bouncing. The larger the diffuser, the farther away you can get and
still get soft light. With a large studio soft box, you can get
useful softening out about 15 feet.

Bouncing has the effect of creating a huge diffuser out of the room,
so you can be a long way from your subject and still get soft light.

I use an LS II on my SB800, and without bouncing (like outdoors),
beyond five feet you might as well remove it and shoot with the bare
flash. All it does after five feet is reduce the power of your flash.

Indoors, with a white ceiling, the LS II really works well. I always
use it with the top removed so a lot of the flash energy will go up
and hit the ceiling. It sends light in all directions, and greatly
reduces harsh shadows. The light on the subject becomes very soft.
It works far better than the little diffuser that came with the SB800.

--
Russ

Thanks for the input, Russ. I'm not so concerned about shooting subjects from too far a distance. I'm more concerned about needing to shoot more or less direct (or close to direct) on the subject in the event there is no chance of using ceilings (perhaps ceiling is too high, like in a church, or the ceiling is heavily angled, thus throwing off the reliance on bounced light).

So this is where I would be interested in seeing some head-on test shots comparing the flash with the supplied Nikon Diffusion cap vs. flash with the Light sphere II (both cases not using bounced light).

But if I can make my own with great results, then this would solve the issue as well.

Cheers,

NRG

--
F/8 and be there.
http://www.pbase.com/nrg_alpha/

Matt F · Nov 10, 2007

Arkayem said:
When you point a flash at a subject using a diffuser (any diffuser),
it will only soften the light if you are very close to the subject.
Same thing as a soft box in studio work. As you move farther and
farther from a diffuser, it looks more and more like a point source
of light, which creates very harsh shadows.

Exactly! Which is why I never use a diffusion dome at all. Here is a great tutorial on how to do it...
http://planetneil.com/tangents/flash-photography-techniques/

--
-- Pmatt
Gallery - http://www.silentcolor.com

vfk · Nov 11, 2007

I like to use Lightsphere in a small room, but in my aging eyes I prefer a brighter image along with the softness. I recommend also consider getting the Chrome Dome to force more light forward. I also use the Demb diffuser ($30) in situations where the ceiling is more than 2 stories high and I need more power going forward as the walls are too far away. The SB800 is great for it's size, but the added inches of Lightsphere/Demb provides more offset lighting.

Here's a chart you may wish to review the determine what softness and lighting you prefer....

Lenny C · Nov 11, 2007

The Lightsphere II (top on) for direct flash works well and better than the SB-800's diffuser. HOWEVER, the Lightsphere II eats A LOT of light power, so take that into consideration. In video, it shows the Lightsphere being used when shooting a large wedding party inside at a distance.....it doesn't work for me. The video also shows it being used for fill flash with a girl on a boat (outdoors).....the Lightsphere doesn't come close to using for outdoor fill flash for me. The Lightsphere does work well indoors when the subjects are relatively close. Also, it's good for bounce flash if you're close to subjects and you're working with a low white ceiling....in those situations I'd recommend shooting with the Lightsphere's top off.

nrg_alpha said:
I just picked up and started playing with my SB-800 flash.
While the Nikon diffuser cap does soften shadows somewhat, it leaves
me wishing the cap diffused light even more.. (I even followed the
manual's suggestion of using the built-in wide angle adapter in
conjunction with the Diffuser cap to maximize light diffusion.

Since the beloved search functionality is down, I was wondering from
those of you who have played with SB-800 with the diffuser cap and
compared it with the Lightsphere II. While bouncing flash off the
ceiling yields less harsh results than a direct aim, I am more
interested in the comparison of the Nikon Diffuser cap vs the
lightsphere II when 'aimed directly at the subject' as opposed to
bouncing off a ceiling (as not all shooting possibilities will allow
ceiling bouncing..).

If there is anyone who has conducted tests of directly aimed
Diffusion cap shots vs Lightsphere II shots (no ceiling bounce
shots), I would be interested in seeing them. I'm just curious as to
how effective the lightsphere II is in real world sample shots (and
not images from Gary Phong's website).

I'm posting this in both the D3/D2/D1 and D300/D200/D100 forums, just
in case.

Thanks in advance.

Cheers,

NRG
--
F/8 and be there.
http://www.pbase.com/nrg_alpha/

Londongal · Nov 11, 2007

Thanks vfk for posting these images!

I've not used the Lightsphere without its dome (have not yet watched the DVD, so perhaps that is why I've missed this info).

I have the Lightsphere II, which I really like. However, it frequently pops off my SB 800 and rolls away...Anyone have a tip as to how to put it on the flash so that it stays there?

best wishes,
Londongal

nrg_alpha · Nov 11, 2007

Lenny C said:
The Lightsphere II (top on) for direct flash works well and better
than the SB-800's diffuser. HOWEVER, the Lightsphere II eats A LOT of
light power, so take that into consideration.

Hi Lenny. I have a question. When you mention that the Light Sphere II eats a lot of light power.. you mean it traps a large amount of light? If so, then does it diffuse it well, or just traps too much light? How many f-stops equivalent? (this is with a dome cap on I presume? )

Sorry, perhaps I am not understanding the statement.

Lenny C said:
In video, it shows the
Lightsphere being used when shooting a large wedding party inside at
a distance.....it doesn't work for me.

Well, as others mention, the father the flash from the subject (even with a diffuser on), the harder the shadows become. This is not a primary concern for me, as I intend to shoot in at close range.

Lenny C said:
The video also shows it being
used for fill flash with a girl on a boat (outdoors).....the
Lightsphere doesn't come close to using for outdoor fill flash for
me.

How far is the girl from the flash? This would have an effect. Just curious.

Lenny C said:
The Lightsphere does work well indoors when the subjects are
relatively close. Also, it's good for bounce flash if you're close
to subjects and you're working with a low white ceiling....in those
situations I'd recommend shooting with the Lightsphere's top off.

Yeah, the intention is shooting in close. I am not worried about bounced effects, as I would make use of this when shooting indoors..it's when I am outdoors and have no choice but to shoot head-on that concerns me..

Cheers,

NRG

--
F/8 and be there.
http://www.pbase.com/nrg_alpha/

nrg_alpha · Nov 11, 2007

Thanks for the great series of examples you posted here! I appreciate the effort you put into it!

I personally do not like too much light illuminating the subject (thus, if I did go the Light Sphere II route, I would be doubtful in getting the chrome dome component).

I am not too familiar with the Demb flash products, so I apologize in advance for my ignorance... I am slightly confused with the angle labels for the flip-it.. so do I understand correctly that when the flip-it part is at 90 degrees, it is essentially pointing straight (perpendicular) to the flash head (so if the flash head is pointing straight up, the flip-it is also straight up?). Edit: Ok.. I think I misread.. when you label 'Card' at say 90 degrees, you mean the main flip-it part (not the clear plastic diffuser parts) right?

I will pour over your results again.. (lots to soak in

What is your preference between the Light Sphere and the Demb Flip-it (just out of curiosity)?

Again, thank you for the time you took to put this together! I really appreciate it a lot!

I'll keep looking over your results and formulate what versions I prefer.

Cheers,

NRG
--
F/8 and be there.
http://www.pbase.com/nrg_alpha/

nrg_alpha · Nov 11, 2007

Matt F said:
Exactly! Which is why I never use a diffusion dome at all. Here is a
great tutorial on how to do it...
http://planetneil.com/tangents/flash-photography-techniques/

--

Thanks for the link, Matt. I started reading it, and gave some great insight into achieving flash that looks like ambient lighting. Will help me out when shooting indoors with the ability to bounce flash as Neil does.

Cheers,

NRG

--
F/8 and be there.
http://www.pbase.com/nrg_alpha/

nrg_alpha · Nov 11, 2007

Londongal said:
I have the Lightsphere II, which I really like. However, it
frequently pops off my SB 800 and rolls away...Anyone have a tip as
to how to put it on the flash so that it stays there?

Hey Londongal.. just a quick question.. is your Light Sphere II the older hard plastic version or is it the newer softer one?

Cheers,

NRG
--
F/8 and be there.
http://www.pbase.com/nrg_alpha/

Londongal · Nov 11, 2007

Hi NRG,

I'm not exactly certain, as the only one I've ever actually seen is the one I own. I bought it one year ago; I do believe it is one of the new soft ones. It feels very soft, like if you would squeeze one of those soft yellow rubber ducks that are commonly seen in games at fairgrounds (it was a bit of a challenge to find something I could compare the softness to). It is not hard, like a plastic bottle that you would purchase bottled water in.

I try to really push the Lightsphere onto the flash, but it still manages to slip off. One thing I can observe though, is how polite people are...When I am shooting and the Lightsphere falls off, there are always a number of people reaching down and running after the "bouncing Lightsphere" to retrieve it for me

Best wishes,
Londongal

vfk · Nov 11, 2007

nrg_alpha said:
Thanks for the great series of examples you posted here! I appreciate
the effort you put into it!

For starters.... Please don't give me credit for all the image samples. As a dpreview newbie, I merely pasted a link onto my message. DPreview got ahead of me and made it look like it was my work. I couldn't figure out how to edit my message after posting it.

Here's the full URL with author information.... http://www.flickr.com/photos/twiladavisreed/364337940/

nrg_alpha · Nov 11, 2007

vfk said:
nrg_alpha said:

Thanks for the great series of examples you posted here! I appreciate
the effort you put into it!

Click to expand...

For starters.... Please don't give me credit for all the image
samples. As a dpreview newbie, I merely pasted a link onto my
message. DPreview got ahead of me and made it look like it was my
work. I couldn't figure out how to edit my message after posting it.

Here's the full URL with author information....
http://www.flickr.com/photos/twiladavisreed/364337940/

Ah ok.. well let me rephrase my thanks... thank you for fetching this image and bringing it the attention of this link

Cheers,

NRG
--
F/8 and be there.
http://www.pbase.com/nrg_alpha/

vfk · Nov 11, 2007

nrg_alpha said:
I personally do not like too much light illuminating the subject
(thus, if I did go the Light Sphere II route, I would be doubtful in
getting the chrome dome component).

I am not too familiar with the Demb flash products, so I apologize in
advance for my ignorance... I am slightly confused with the angle
labels for the flip-it.. so do I understand correctly that when the
flip-it part is at 90 degrees, it is essentially pointing straight
(perpendicular) to the flash head (so if the flash head is pointing
straight up, the flip-it is also straight up?). Edit: Ok.. I think
I misread.. when you label 'Card' at say 90 degrees, you mean the
main flip-it part (not the clear plastic diffuser parts) right?

I will pour over your results again.. (lots to soak in
What is your preference between the Light Sphere and the Demb Flip-it
(just out of curiosity)?

Check out this link for Demb products.... http://www.dembflashproducts.com/#dfd

Doing some Internet research on flash diffuser options, I stumbled across this $30 product that didn't rely on walls and ceilings for diffusion. I also wanted something extremely portable without light stands or reflectors. The discussion groups spoke highly on this product. Seeing the light comparison chart I posted earlier, I preferred images where more forward light fell on the subject. Also in a crowded room, Lightsphere can be irritaging as a grenade as you blind others standing behind or next to you.

I've also heard from some discussions where people are adding aluminum foil to LightSphere to again throw more light forward.

To clarify is everyone talking about Lightsphere Clear or Cloud??? I'll assume we are talking about Clear.

Again, I prefer Lightsphere in room with low ceilings, close walls, and the subject is less than 8 feet away. I prefer Demb in other situations. Sometimes I will combine them together. Demb on my camera and Lightsphere on a second flash behind the subject on Nikon's wireless CLS. When shooting people with dark hair or dark clothing. The Lightsphere flash will provide a "rim light" on the subject profile, but also brightening up a sometimes dark background, removing flash shadows.

Lenny C · Nov 12, 2007

I never did any scientific testing on the loss of light in f-stops, but I would guess that it's at least 2 using direct flash with top on. With bounce flash and a low white ceiling, it's probably another 2.5 tor 3.5 loss. I generally would use the Lightspere II when no more than 8 to 10 feet from subject. I have the newer "soft" version and keep the top off for bounce flash so that the loss of light isn't quite so much.

I keep the Lightsphere in a bag with all my other camera gear. I must remember to keep the top of the Lightsphere on because if I don't and other camera equipment winds up on top of it in the bag, it becomes squished and looses its shape. The original shape will return once you put the top back on and wait a few hours.

It does, when uses as a bounce flash reduce shadows, but not entirely. I put my camera with the Lightsphere on a tripod and shot myself for a passport photo (which must contain no shadows behind subject to be accepted). Although there was a slight shadow behind me, it was good enough and accepted.

nrg_alpha said:
Lenny C said:

The Lightsphere II (top on) for direct flash works well and better
than the SB-800's diffuser. HOWEVER, the Lightsphere II eats A LOT of
light power, so take that into consideration.

Click to expand...

Hi Lenny. I have a question. When you mention that the Light Sphere
II eats a lot of light power.. you mean it traps a large amount of
light? If so, then does it diffuse it well, or just traps too much
light? How many f-stops equivalent? (this is with a dome cap on I
presume? )

Sorry, perhaps I am not understanding the statement.

nrg_alpha said:

In video, it shows the
Lightsphere being used when shooting a large wedding party inside at
a distance.....it doesn't work for me.

Click to expand...

Well, as others mention, the father the flash from the subject (even
with a diffuser on), the harder the shadows become. This is not a
primary concern for me, as I intend to shoot in at close range.

nrg_alpha said:

The video also shows it being
used for fill flash with a girl on a boat (outdoors).....the
Lightsphere doesn't come close to using for outdoor fill flash for
me.

Click to expand...

How far is the girl from the flash? This would have an effect. Just
curious.

nrg_alpha said:

The Lightsphere does work well indoors when the subjects are
relatively close. Also, it's good for bounce flash if you're close
to subjects and you're working with a low white ceiling....in those
situations I'd recommend shooting with the Lightsphere's top off.

Click to expand...

Yeah, the intention is shooting in close. I am not worried about
bounced effects, as I would make use of this when shooting
indoors..it's when I am outdoors and have no choice but to shoot
head-on that concerns me..

Cheers,

NRG

--
F/8 and be there.
http://www.pbase.com/nrg_alpha/

Arkayem · Nov 17, 2007

Londongal said:
I have the Lightsphere II, which I really like. However, it
frequently pops off my SB 800 and rolls away...Anyone have a tip as
to how to put it on the flash so that it stays there?

I use the LS II Cloud for shooting weddings professionally. And I have also had the dome fall off as you describe.

I have learned to always keep the dome pointed upwards, and now I rarely have it fall off. Just don't relax and let the camera point down (like with a strap). I never use a strap with my D200, because it often flicks around in front of the camera and switches me from AF-S to Manual focus. That will really ruin your day!!

--
Russ

SB-800 Diffuser vs. Lightsphere II

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