Impartial Insults for Nikon and Canon

I just don't get it. I tried outlining them, and playing with levels, but I don't get that look at all. I think everyone who knows photoshop has taken a secret pledge never to divulge the secret of making photos look like that

--
Jeremiah 1:5

I switched to Canon 3 years ago from a D2h --> 1dmk2 and now a 5d.

Whilst I like the Canon low light results and picture quality, it is in no way, body-wise, comparable to a Nikon body. I mastered the D2h is 2 months. I could not master the use of the Canon 1dmk2 in 1.5 years. It's a terrible mess with the 2 button system. Even mirror lock up'stuck in the custom settings. Most of the settings need be adjusted on a computer.

D2h? Most of the settings even the minimum shutter speed can be adjusted on camera.
--
You cannot fail if you have not tried
http://www.flickr.com/photos/justphotography/show/

Nikon's is better, and I said better not best!

Anybody who says Canon's is better don't know what efficiency or intuitive means, period!

tada

Northern-lights said:

I switched to Canon 3 years ago from a D2h --> 1dmk2 and now a 5d.

Whilst I like the Canon low light results and picture quality, it is
in no way, body-wise, comparable to a Nikon body. I mastered the D2h
is 2 months. I could not master the use of the Canon 1dmk2 in 1.5
years. It's a terrible mess with the 2 button system. Even mirror
lock up'stuck in the custom settings. Most of the settings need be
adjusted on a computer.

Click to expand...

I came from a Canon EOS A2 and a D60 to a 1D mk II and it took me about 15 minutes to master it. The D2h must be really poorly designed if, as a Nikon user, it took you 2 months to figure it out.

photomik said:

Anybody who says Canon's is better don't know what efficiency or
intuitive means, period!

Click to expand...

If you could point out how in any way any camera is "intuitive" I would be impressed. I'm going to wager that the most intuitive use for any camera is probably as maybe a nutcracker, or a doorstop, or a footrest maybe.

Ex. Front wheel for aperture, and rear for shutter. Very basic layout. Spin the wheels toward your right and exposure goes up.

Buttons belong where their functions are.

Menus are simple.

Most used functions are easily available.

etc...

photomik said:

Ex. Front wheel for aperture, and rear for shutter. Very basic
layout. Spin the wheels toward your right and exposure goes up.

Buttons belong where their functions are.

Menus are simple.

Most used functions are easily available.

Click to expand...

That's not based on intuition, that's all based on prior knowledge. And in none of those specific areas is there a significant difference between any major camera brand. Although personally, I've always thought Nikon's menus were quite sub-par and I can see why they require that little "?" help feature.

Conan said:

That's not based on intuition, that's all based on prior knowledge.
And in none of those specific areas is there a significant difference
between any major camera brand. Although personally, I've always
thought Nikon's menus were quite sub-par and I can see why they
require that little "?" help feature.

Click to expand...

Lets be fair, and you are being difficult. I ride on the fence of both system, Nikon during the film days (from FE to F5) and Canon during the digital times (1D2N and 1Ds2). When my friend bought a 5D, and accidentally changed exposure compensation setting, he came to me for help and for the life of me, couldnt figure out hoe to set it to neutral, until I went online and download the manual...

Now, remember that I have not touched a Nikon body for many years, and recently I borrowed a D200 and rented the D2Xs, and guess what? I do not even need to refer to the manual for any settings.

So, intuitive basically refers to: If you know photography, you should instinctively perform any basic photography settings (Manual, AF, Shutter Priority, Aperture Priority, ISO, Exposure compensation, flash compensation, focus point selection, WB preset, and manual WB) on a camera without referring to the manual. Any "prior knowledge" comes not from how the camera function but knowledge of photography per se, hence "intuitive".

I doubt you could have "mastered" your 1 series without referring to your manual at least once.

--
My price to do the job - $4000 and up.
Price of the guy with a Digital Rebel or D40x with kit lens - A couple of $100s
Uncle Bob who has a camera doing it for you as a favor - Free
Deciding to go with the guy and/or Uncle Bob and then having them screwing up
your day with no decent pictures ---------- PRICELESS!

Aletheia said:

and the PP'd good version is just not the kind of image I like. It makes
me think your interpretation of things is likely much different than mine.

Click to expand...

I completely agree. If not for the shallow depth of field, I'd think that the image came from a P&S camera, based on its colors and contrast.

In terms of layout, those who shoot Canon are used to its layout, and those who shoot Nikon are used to its layout. A switch in any direction should be an inconvenience and would require some getting used to. However, when people come to Canon from Nikon, they just feel their inconvenience has some objective meaning because they believe that Nikon has a better ergo -- so they feel they need to talk about it.

Also, you are perfectly entitled to your own opinion, whatever it is, but when you say that 5D is a "glorified P&S camera," you should not expect to have people's attention for much longer.

Best,
Igor.

Randy Khayman said:

Conan said:

That's not based on intuition, that's all based on prior knowledge.
And in none of those specific areas is there a significant difference
between any major camera brand. Although personally, I've always
thought Nikon's menus were quite sub-par and I can see why they
require that little "?" help feature.

Click to expand...

Lets be fair, and you are being difficult. I ride on the fence of
both system, Nikon during the film days (from FE to F5) and Canon
during the digital times (1D2N and 1Ds2). When my friend bought a 5D,
and accidentally changed exposure compensation setting, he came to me
for help and for the life of me, couldnt figure out hoe to set it to
neutral, until I went online and download the manual...

Now, remember that I have not touched a Nikon body for many years,
and recently I borrowed a D200 and rented the D2Xs, and guess what? I
do not even need to refer to the manual for any settings.

Click to expand...

exactly. prior knowledge.

whenever I had to pick up a D200 to do some things, I'd have to yell over to a friend of mine .. how the #@ &#$ do I change this again?

it's not intunitive at all if you have had no prior knowledge of the way nikon does things. I find it very counter intinutive, however, if the person has prior knowledge on how nikon does things, then it probably comes second nature.

Randy Khayman said:

So, intuitive basically refers to: If you know photography, you
should instinctively perform any basic photography settings (Manual,
AF, Shutter Priority, Aperture Priority, ISO, Exposure compensation,
flash compensation, focus point selection, WB preset, and manual WB)
on a camera without referring to the manual. Any "prior knowledge"
comes not from how the camera function but knowledge of photography
per se, hence "intuitive".

I doubt you could have "mastered" your 1 series without referring to
your manual at least once.

Click to expand...

I doubt you can MASTER any camera without referring to the manual once, with no prior background in their camera systems.

Randy Khayman said:

Now, remember that I have not touched a Nikon body for many years,
and recently I borrowed a D200 and rented the D2Xs, and guess what? I
do not even need to refer to the manual for any settings.

Click to expand...

I am sure that your previous years with Nikon helped here because there is some continuity in layouts of different cameras. When I take any Canon body, Rebel-level, 30D-level, 1D-level, film or digital, I just know what to do. When I take a Nikon, I have no clue. And, for the record, I don't feel that Nikons are comfortable in my hand either. Could I get used to them if I wanted to? Of course! They are just little bodies with few menus, and in the end, I know what they should do. Are there a few features that Nikon bodies have and Canons don't, which I would want to have? Sure thing! Now, Canon's 1 series is something I truly enjoy holding in my hands and using. Go figure...

Best,
Igor.

Would be to sit down and explain basic photographic theory to a small control group until they understood it. then hand half of them Canon's and Half of them Nikon's without manuals. Ask them to do various things and see who figures what out and how quickly they can learn the Camera.

This control group would have to never had touched a nikon or canon pro model before.

JASC did this with Paintshop Pro before Corel bought them. They learned alot about where the UI could be improved and how to make the program more natural. The people they had monitoring the test group were the actual programmers so there was no miscommunication to be had.

--
-Greg

http://www.gregknapp.net/
Equipment in Profile

Geek:
There are 10 types of people in this world.
Those who understand binary and those that dont.

rrcphoto said:

exactly. prior knowledge.

whenever I had to pick up a D200 to do some things, I'd have to yell
over to a friend of mine .. how the #@ &#$ do I change this again?

it's not intunitive at all if you have had no prior knowledge of the
way nikon does things. I find it very counter intinutive, however,
if the person has prior knowledge on how nikon does things, then it
probably comes second nature.

Click to expand...

If that is the case, it would have been the same for other Canon cameras, which I know of people, myself included, could not figure how to do a simple exposure compensation on the 5D from a 1 series. Seriously, if you have to yell at your friend to ask how to perform any other basic function I listed, it only meant that either you know nothing about photography or your IQ is less than desirable. That said, I would rather just accept that you are simply exaggerating your experience with the D200

C'mon, admit it, you are not THAT dumb not to figure how to do any of those things I listed on a D200 right? Or is it just getting too comfortable?

rrcphoto said:

I doubt you can MASTER any camera without referring to the manual
once, with no prior background in their camera systems.

Click to expand...

Maybe not master, but to figure out how to change those settings without referring to the manual, I would put my money on it anytime if its a Nikon, provided the user do knows photography.

Say what you want. For any photographers who shoots both system, ask them. Unanimously, all will claimed that Nikon is easier to navigate around. Why? Because these are the group of people who are not just used to a particular layout of a brand but is comfortable in both.

I for one, shoots both system.

--
My price to do the job - $4000 and up.
Price of the guy with a Digital Rebel or D40x with kit lens - A couple of $100s
Uncle Bob who has a camera doing it for you as a favor - Free
Deciding to go with the guy and/or Uncle Bob and then having them screwing up
your day with no decent pictures ---------- PRICELESS!

IgorCU said:

Randy Khayman wrote:

I am sure that your previous years with Nikon helped here because
there is some continuity in layouts of different cameras. When I
take any Canon body, Rebel-level, 30D-level, 1D-level, film or
digital, I just know what to do. When I take a Nikon, I have no
clue. And, for the record, I don't feel that Nikons are comfortable
in my hand either. Could I get used to them if I wanted to? Of
course! They are just little bodies with few menus, and in the end,
I know what they should do. Are there a few features that Nikon
bodies have and Canons don't, which I would want to have? Sure
thing! Now, Canon's 1 series is something I truly enjoy holding in
my hands and using. Go figure...

Click to expand...

Hey, I am not arguing about how comfortable the 1 series is! I owned 2 of them. But comfortable to hold and having an intuitive interface is 2 different thing. I got used to mine and can navigate around the controls with my eyes close, but I would still say the Nikon is easier to use.

--
My price to do the job - $4000 and up.
Price of the guy with a Digital Rebel or D40x with kit lens - A couple of $100s
Uncle Bob who has a camera doing it for you as a favor - Free
Deciding to go with the guy and/or Uncle Bob and then having them screwing up
your day with no decent pictures ---------- PRICELESS!

--
My price to do the job - $4000 and up.
Price of the guy with a Digital Rebel or D40x with kit lens - A couple of $100s
Uncle Bob who has a camera doing it for you as a favor - Free
Deciding to go with the guy and/or Uncle Bob and then having them screwing up
your day with no decent pictures ---------- PRICELESS!

pprior said:

I just don't get it. I tried outlining them, and playing with
levels, but I don't get that look at all. I think everyone who knows
photoshop has taken a secret pledge never to divulge the secret of
making photos look like that

--
Jeremiah 1:5

Click to expand...

Did you go to the link I posted?

Perhaps get a Leica? Great lenses, small and very easy to use.
--
http://www.pbase.com/edward_in_chicago/edward_in_chicago&page=all

Randy Khayman said:

I got used to mine and can navigate around the controls with my eyes close, but I > would still say the Nikon is easier to use.

Click to expand...

Randy, I've heard you before, but as I said already, my take on it is that you probably learned Nikon first, or you learned photography with Nikon, or something like that, and now you'll forever feel that Nikon is more natural or 'intuitive' as you put it. Now, I learned photography with Canon A1 (the manual system before EOS), and then used EOS 3. I truly and honestly feel that Canons are very intuitive. But, unlike you, I understand that what I feel is subjective and won't try to prove it to you. IQ is much more objective than ergonomics, that's why I'd try to avoid discussing it the same way. As I said above in the thread, "In terms of layout, those who shoot Canon are used to its layout, and those who shoot Nikon are used to its layout. A switch in any direction should be an inconvenience and would require some getting used to. However, when people come to Canon from Nikon, they just feel their inconvenience has some objective meaning because they believe that Nikon has a better ergo -- so they feel they need to talk about it."

Best,
Igor.

Actually, I would imagine that the old Canon (A1) would be very similar to the Nikons manual camera like FE, Fa, F3 etc. Even their first pro-electronic camera, the F4 has a manual feel to it (knobs instead of buttons and wheels). While I say this without actually seen (let alone handle it, so I am prepared to be corrected), I have handled the old minoltas, pentax and even leica (R6, R7) and they are all similar.

By intuitive, I mean just that: you do not have to handle it before to know what goes where. The same can be said of the old Hassy 500, the RB67 etc, i.e. anyone with a knowledge of photography will know what to do with them (I am talking about basic operations like manual setting, shutter/aperture priority, program if any, switchiing between AF and MF if any, iso settings, exposure compensation, flash compensation, or even WB. And this do not includes "features" or bells and whistles that are in one way or another, an extended version of what I have outlined above).

My first buttons and wheels camera was the F5, a very manor difference between that and all other Nikons I have handled before (all knobs). Do I have a problem without reading the manual? Hell no. I just went ahead and shoot, referring to the manual only to access the bells and whistles.

That is the same for the D200 and D2Xs which I recently played with. Not so with the 1series when I first got it. Definitely not the 5D (I mentioned about the exposure compensation, which is accessible only if you press the shutter halfway, then you turn the dial...). If basic functions like this is "hidden", it is NOT intuitive.

Now, say what you want (this also applies to the other Canon users). If I were to hand you a D2x, D200, (or even a D3, D300), and if I were to give you a specific task to switch anything I outlined above, you can figure it within 5 seconds (or maybe 10 if you are really slow) but there is no way in hell that you cannot figure it out unless of course, one is incredibly stupid.

Once again, I want to stress that I am also a Canon user, so I am not bashing Canon in any way. Both C and N make great tools and they both have their strength and weaknesses. Body ergonomics however, is not the strength of Canon. And that is being objective.

--
My price to do the job - $4000 and up.
Price of the guy with a Digital Rebel or D40x with kit lens - A couple of $100s
Uncle Bob who has a camera doing it for you as a favor - Free
Deciding to go with the guy and/or Uncle Bob and then having them screwing up
your day with no decent pictures ---------- PRICELESS!

I wish to get it too.. but for that price, I would rather get something else...

However, the M8 is definitely more intuitive than the Nikon DSLRs

--
My price to do the job - $4000 and up.
Price of the guy with a Digital Rebel or D40x with kit lens - A couple of $100s
Uncle Bob who has a camera doing it for you as a favor - Free
Deciding to go with the guy and/or Uncle Bob and then having them screwing up
your day with no decent pictures ---------- PRICELESS!