Impartial Insults for Nikon and Canon

This forum seems to attract people who can only read a post with their own preconceptions firmly in place.

Let me see if I understand you.

At this stage in your Canon 5D experience, the ergonomics are unfamiliar and seem counter-intuitive. Calling this a criticism of Canon appeared to be at least partly self-deprecating. Good on you.

The quality of the file is not in question. By being more tolerant of post-processing abuse, this is clear.

However, you propose, easy reliance on this capability in the 5D sensor may be a driving factor in Canon users failing to question certain aspects of the camera ergonomics. In particular exposure does not need to be spot on, as it has to be in your experience of Nikon dSLRs.

...

As a last point, consider that the 5D sensor has something like 14.3 stops of dynamic range. i.e. full well capacity of 80,000 electrons with a noise floor of 3.7 electrons at ISO1600 (ref clarkvision.com). Although we are just getting to the point of 14 bit RAW files becoming commonplace, the technology has to move on a bit before we will see all 14.3 stops represented in a RAW file.

However, when we get there it will make a nonsense of setting ISO on the camera. All that ISO setting will achieve will be a calibration of the metering system. Exposure will be a matter of setting a shutter speed to capture/freeze motion, setting an aperture to contro depth of field and the metering system can then suggest how noisy the image will be.

Its like rocket science! NASA would have trouble deleting a file on those things. haha

In the current line ups...do you have any proof to back up your statements about Auto Focus? I would say that Nikon and Canon are in parody with each other for Autofocus technology over all.

Well tools are tools and each one has its advantages. I see Canon as having some advantages for image quality and post processing capability. I see Nikon having advantage in the human interface department. But the Canon interface is slowly becoming more familiar to me however I don't think I will ever really like it. It remains to be seen if Nikon will break through all previous standards with the D3.

I really can't take credit for the user name, it was given to me by colleagues I've worked with the past 30 years.

WGArts said:

And it should be obvious what you were doing with the portrait of the
young girl.

Oh, and I love your user name - well done again.

Best

HighTechRedNeck said:

One Last Time: The underexposure of the child's face was intentional
to illustrate how much adjustment a Canon file can stand in post
processing. Instead this has turned into a critique of my
photographic skills. Something nobody can objectively comment on
since they have seen only one image that illustrates an extreme test
case for intentional underexposure and post processing of that image.

For those who have offered insightful comments about my observations
concerning Canon files, I thank you. For those who just got in the
way and had nothing to offer let me tell you a huge important secret.
You've wasted precious minutes of your life. I don't care what you
think of my work. Really! I don't! Even if the very best image I
could every create was puked on by the whole of dpreview's discussion
forums. I really don't care. I am all grown up now and don't need
someone to pat me on the back and tell me how good I am. Really
I have only one person's opinion that I value in that regard, Mine.

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That's dissappointing. I haven't used the newest iteration of the 580 yet and was hoping things had gotten better. Truth be told though, I think both Nikon and Canon need to work on this system a lot. I believe that a photographer should know enough to be able to make the flash work manually but that isn't always a convenient thing to be doing while shooting. Maybe one of these companies will actually sit down and make a big improvement. I think Nikon did this with the SB800, but they still have plenty of room to improve.

I don't jump (by definition, mine) and my statement wasn't a conclusion but a fact stated , dressed with a delicious sarcasm, making the outcome pleasant to read.

and again, for your information, I don't jump. Never.

HTRN,

I feel the same way you do but the shoe is on a different foot. I started out using Canon EOS film cameras and moved to Canon EOS digital with no trouble. At work they provided me with first a Nikon D1X then a Nikon D2Xs and I feel you must be a contortionist to use a Nikon. Just a matter of what you are use to. It is like all your life you are right handed but break your right hand and have to use your left. There are also situations where my 4 year old 6.3MP Canon 10D will out perform the Nikon D2Xs. The camera is a tool and both Canon and Nikon function well and do the job, you just have to get use to them.

HighTechRedNeck said:

I know what you are saying about getting used to something. The Fuji
S2 was probably the worst camera for control menu interface. If I
can get comfortable with that, I'm sure the Canon will be a piece of
cake. Nevertheless, I find the Canon interface convoluted. I know
in time I will adjust and accept this condition.

I'm just trying to point out the good, the bad and the ugly of the
most prominent camera systems.

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Speak about convoluted, why on God's green earth do you zoom in counter clockwise on a Canon and zoom in clockwise on a Nikon. Or how about the zoom ring on a Canon being closest to the body and on a Nikon the focus ring is closest to the body. Do you think that just maybe these differences are to keep existing customers?

HighTechRedNeck said:

The image I used was purposely under exposed. The PP treatment
followed a Jessica Claire recommendation. My overall point is the
Canon image will hold up nicely to tons of levels adjustment in PP.
My Nikon Images this badly underexposed would not. Yes you can do
the same treatment to the Nikon images but theywill explode with ugly
coarse noise that is very difficult to remedy.

That said I find the guys I know with Canons are not giving much
thought to exposure and camera settings at the time they are
shooting. Not nearly as much as I devote to this mental activity.
They flip on the Canon's cruise control and worry about exposure
later. This is something I was unaware of until seeing Jessica
Claire's video and trying it for myself.

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Jessica Claire may be an excellent artist and a good wedding photographer but she may also be a poor technocrat. I remember when I was first starting out in photography, I mentored with a very good professional photographer. We use to go out and shoot landscapes. After the prints were processed I would say “Smitty, what do you think?” He would say the photographs were technically very good but the composition stinks. The technical part takes practice and when you reach the point of taking good pictures and it becomes second nature you are ready to work on the composition part and make those pictures into photographic art.

Totally off topic, but could you please (!) give me your workflow for how you changed that picture. The eyes are beautiful and the color is a thing of beauty. I want the first picture, but always end up not getting there.

thanks for sharing

--
Jeremiah 1:5

Morgants said:

I believe it is all very subjective.

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Oh, it is all very subjective; I'd never argue with that, which is why it always sort of peevs me when people spout the supposed superiority of one design over another without any sort of objective criteria.

Morgants said:

When I "went" digital the D60 was my
first camera. It was decent but I never really felt comfortable with
it.

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The D30 and D60 were definitely a little quirky, but it was the early days of 'affordable' DSLRs, so I guess I'm willing to forgive a little there, but really, if you were already using other Canon EOS SLRs they were quite simple to use.

Morgants said:

I moved on to a D70, D1h, D2h and a D200 and for me I cannot
agree with the "re-invent the wheel" statement.

The controls on the D1, D2 and D200 are virtually the same.

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My previous post was somewhat hyperbolic, but it did only take Nikon 15 years or so after going to AF to take a page out of Canon's book and learn that consistency is...well...kind of nice.

Peter Carmichael said:

However, you propose, easy reliance on this capability in the 5D
sensor may be a driving factor in Canon users failing to question
certain aspects of the camera ergonomics. In particular exposure
does not need to be spot on, as it has to be in your experience of
Nikon dSLRs.

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I found some friends using the older 20D seemed less concerned about exposure considerations. From what I have learned that translates into their knowledge that a file can be more easily manipulated in PP than what I was conditioned to expect from Nikon files. This in no way implies that we should all go buy Canons and do sloppy work because we can always fix things later.

Ben Strasser said:

Jessica Claire may be an excellent artist and a good wedding
photographer but she may also be a poor technocrat.

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Amen, and this is much of my point. Not that we should buy Canons and become sloppy technocrats nor should we lack vision. But the Canon is more forgiving of bad exposure.

Ben Strasser said:

Speak about convoluted, why on God's green earth do you zoom in
counter clockwise on a Canon and zoom in clockwise on a Nikon. Or
how about the zoom ring on a Canon being closest to the body and on a
Nikon the focus ring is closest to the body. Do you think that just
maybe these differences are to keep existing customers?

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Great point. At first I thought it was something Oriental like reading from right to left but this is truly inconsistent.

papparazzi wrote:
They simply have another aproach, as how photographers work

You can say that again. I am getting more familiar with it but I doubt I will ever like the interface.

Interesting experience. I bought a 580 EX II with the 5D and it seems to do well but then I have had very little time with it.

scottjj said:

papparazzi said:

PS: one more thing to all, i see people all the time complain about
metering/flash/autofocus in canon's...i t just makes me laugh!! Canon
is doing cameras in teh EOS system for about as long as 30 years!!
they have been wrong all this time right? They simply have another
aproach, as how photographers work

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I would like to think that the problem is me since I'm easier (and
cheaper) to fix than hardware. Unfortunately I've never gotten a
Canon body to produce consistently accurate flash pictures.

A year or so I experimented with a 5D and a 580EX in my rather dim
dining room. On both Full Auto and Program mode flash pictures were
very dim, not even registering past half-way on the histogram. The
Speedlite was only driven to 1/32nd power as I recall.

When I switched the flash to manual in Program and set it on 1/4 the
camera shot beautifully exposed images. The famous Canon ETTL-II
system couldn't even figure that one out.

I've read every flash article I've encountered in hopes of running
into that Duh! thing that I've left out. Only my 1D2N using FEC gets
anywhere close. From my experience the Canon flash system comes
nowhere to the accuracy that the camera and flash manuals describe.

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Amazing... Shooting jpg's with a 5D!
Even more amazing... Post Processing these jpg's!
And you call it an impartial insult?

Regards,
Pedro

My experience with the SB800 has been nothing to write home about. It can be fooled very easily and the pre-flash has people blink during the exposure all the time. Too much time lag there between the pre-flash and main flash.

Jake Loves Good Glass said:

That's dissappointing. I haven't used the newest iteration of the 580
yet and was hoping things had gotten better. Truth be told though, I
think both Nikon and Canon need to work on this system a lot. I
believe that a photographer should know enough to be able to make the
flash work manually but that isn't always a convenient thing to be
doing while shooting. Maybe one of these companies will actually sit
down and make a big improvement. I think Nikon did this with the
SB800, but they still have plenty of room to improve.

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ecube said:

Were those photos taken with a Fuji disposal 35mm film toy?

I read a good portion of the thread, including your explanation for
posting those photos. Your profile says you are an engineer, yet,
your methods and explanation on how you use the tools in your hand
suggest otherwise.

IMHO, you seem to need a basic understanding of photography.
Regardless of the camera you use, it is only a tool to capture and
express your creativity. Your choice of title for your thread is not
an insult to Canon nor Nikon. It seems that it is a reflection on
your unfair expectation from Nikon and Canon, hence, an insult to the
intelligence of the Forum.

After taking a long deep breath, I realized that you must be putting
on a show. Are you? !!!

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Member said:

ecube

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Nope, No Show. Just posting subjective impressions of my experience with two camera systems to see how they compare with the experience of others. IMHO you need to take another deep breath, relax and get a life.

Oh yes I am an Engineer. Twenty-nine years in aerospace. This is a discussion board not a failure analysis. Oh, I just thought of something. We have some openings at the Hot Gas Facility in Huntsville where we test engine components. Would you like to apply?

Ben Strasser said:

HTRN,
I feel the same way you do but the shoe is on a different foot. I
started out using Canon EOS film cameras and moved to Canon EOS
digital with no trouble. At work they provided me with first a Nikon
D1X then a Nikon D2Xs and I feel you must be a contortionist to use a
Nikon. Just a matter of what you are use to. It is like all your
life you are right handed but break your right hand and have to use
your left. There are also situations where my 4 year old 6.3MP Canon
10D will out perform the Nikon D2Xs. The camera is a tool and both
Canon and Nikon function well and do the job, you just have to get
use to them.

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You may well be right and the 5D is becoming more familiar but I doubt I will ever like it as much as I do the Nikon.