Impartial Insults for Nikon and Canon

HighTechRedNeck

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I started in film photography long ago but began using the Fuji S2 for digital back when they first hit the market. That meant buying Nikon lenses and flashes as the Fuji was based around a Nikon mount. As time went by I wanted something faster and more responsive than the Fuji. Trying to preserve my investment of lenses, I tried a Nikon D100 but returned it as totally unsatisfactory. Then when the D70 came out, I tired one and was pleased enough to make the purchase. I was delighted with the improved performance and did not mind selling the lethargic Fuji S2. I also tried a Fuji S3 but it was nothing to write home about in the performance department either.

It’s hard not to notice that a lot of people are shooting Canon bodies but every time I tried one in a store, it just seemed like the most confusing control layout. It felt like something designed by Congress. When asking a salesman how to make some simple adjustment or settings, they would fumble around and ask another clerk and finally they would get out the manual and start reading. I just thought “what a complicated piece of .....” Whoever designed the control layout loved to use their right index finger or had three of them on that hand.

On the other side of the equation my Nikon was simple and intuitive. Want to delete a file? Just press the trash button once, a menu comes up and asks are you sure? Then press the trash button again to confirm. That’s it. On Canons you hit the trash button with your left thumb and that brings up a three part menu selection that you must now navigate with the wheel under your right thumb. Upon making your menu selection, you must then move your right thumb to the button located in the center of the wheel and press to confirm. Whew! That is just one example! Ergonomically and intuitively the Nikon just blows away the Canon bodies. Last year I bought a D200 Nikon. It had a body that felt sensual and responsive but I found it to be very disappointing in other ways. Straight out of the box it couldn’t focus on the side of a barn and stayed at Nikon NY for more than a month waiting on parts to fix it and is no better now than my D70 in regards to focusing. It never has measured up to my expectations. I wanted more responsiveness, resolution and less noise than the D70 but I found the D200 was a grave disappointment.

It became increasingly harder to ignore the image results coming out of people I knew that were shooting Canon bodies. They had far less noise and fantastic color / shadings under the most difficult lighting circumstances. The Nikon metering was just too easily fooled in backlit situations, etc. I could never achieve some of the things my Canon counterparts were unless I took lots of time to meter the scene carefully and possibly add some balanced fill flash. What was their secret? They didn’t impress me as better photographers with technical insight or creative vision. In fact they seemed almost indifferent about camera settings and exposures. When I used their Canons the images didn’t look particularly unique. Yet I continued to see all these professionals on the internet that were getting such spectacular results out of Canon systems with rich lush colors. What on earth was their secret and why would they choose to use a system that a blind man could see is a control function mess?

Well now I know the secret. I recently watched a video of a wedding photographer named Jessica Claire showing some Photoshop adjustments she uses. Her (Canon 5D) image example was a terribly under exposed backlit photo of a bride and groom. She proceeded to twist the daylights out of curves and levels in Photoshop, something that would have made one of my Nikon images explode with noise. Having witnessed that, I decided to hold my nose and buy a Canon 5D. I tried a friend’s 85mm f1.8 lens on it outdoors using available light. The images straight out of the camera were lack luster for the most part but neither was the exposure system easily fooled by brightly lit areas. In general the 5D gave you a civil exposure that did not go ape and overexpose when there were lots of highlights and likewise did not underexpose the shadow areas. I took the images into Photoshop and found to my amazement that you can literally pull and twist them like taffy without seeing terrible noise erupt in the shadow areas or have the highlights bloom and simply blow out. It is terrific in this respect and these were jpeg files no less! The camera focuses fairly well but in all others ways the Camera is a pain. It is a glorified point and shoot that simply does not do anything particularly bad to the image it generates and retains enough information integrity that you can manipulate it to your hearts content in Photoshop. The attached photo is of my granddaughter and typifies what can be done with the 5D images.

Surprisingly enough the Nikons faired better than the Canon under studio lighting with more color punch and contrast. Maybe I don’t have enough experience with the Canon yet so the jury is still out on this issue. But for affordable image quality, especially under available light conditions, the 5D is probably pick of the Canon litter but it’s a mangy lot based on the handling and ergonomics. Have I missed anything here Canon and Nikon aficionados?



 
So, you need a camera that forgives your sloppy, haphazard basic photographic skills. Is that what you are saying?
regards - tom
 
On Canons you hit the trash button with your
left thumb and that brings up a three part menu selection that you
must now navigate with the wheel under your right thumb. Upon making
your menu selection, you must then move your right thumb to the
button located in the center of the wheel and press to confirm.
Whew!
You make it seem like your thumb has to travel half way around the world! In reality, the Quick Control Dial simply surrounds the inner Set button, and there is hardly much thumb travel required at all. Most of us Canon users do it without any thought. Ever play a video game? Take the controls on a Playstation controller, for example:



"Boy, if I want to move my character left, I have to move my left thumb ALL THE WAY over to the left arrow button. Or I have to toggle the joystick ALL THE WAY to the left. And if I want my character to pick up something, I have to move my right thumb ALL THE WAY to the "X" button. Whew!!! I'm exhausted!" And yet, miraculously, gamers are able to carry out these arduous movements at lightning speed, without any thought, hundreds of times at each sitting. The movement of your right thumb on a Canon camera is equally minimal, and equally easy to carry out. You're just not used to it, that's all.
 
Thanks for the carefully worded and personal insult Tom.

I'm pointing out that the Nikon makes you work for the image. You either nail the exposure or you don't have a file that can be readily salvaged. Add to that the fact that Nikon's metering system seems easily fooled by difficult lighting situations and it keeps the user preoccupied with exposure adjustments. I feel distracted and find I am not able to focus on composition as much as I'd like.

The Canon seems to have so little noise that even a bad exposure can be salvaged in post processing. That said, I still don't care for the functionality but images are what this is all about. So if the Canon cuts the mustard, so be it. Maybe the new Nikons will improve things in this regard.
 
You are right. Canon makes you focus on photograohy again, as with film, where Nikon let's you work hard to get the same result. I've been using iso 400 on the 5D a lot and exposing very well, because I like the grain in iso400. But using iso100 and underexposing might be easier :o)
I'm pointing out that the Nikon makes you work for the image.
 
I know what you are saying about getting used to something. The Fuji S2 was probably the worst camera for control menu interface. If I can get comfortable with that, I'm sure the Canon will be a piece of cake. Nevertheless, I find the Canon interface convoluted. I know in time I will adjust and accept this condition.

I'm just trying to point out the good, the bad and the ugly of the most prominent camera systems.
 
too many buttons.

But, like anything, once you get used to a system, there is natural resistance to change.

I deploy IT Systems and New/Revised business processes for a living. Changing a camera system is similar, it's a quantum change (apart from the composition itself, whcih some may argue is the point) in behaviours with the intimate parts of the camera.
Once you've learned to stroke it up proper like, then there's no issue.
I agree the IQ is a great reason, but Nikon will and is catching up.
NO rest for the wicked!!
Rob
--
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http://www.pbase.com/lecter
 
The Canon system's automation may be a little lacking compared to Nikon (yes, I'd like 3D matrix metering and the flash system could be better) but with that you're saying that the Nikon is a better P&S. Literally you point it a a subject and shoot. The Canon system requires you to think a little more, to use a little manual adjustment when required. This is a bad thing? I know pro photogs who regard anything other than M mode as evil.

What the 5D gives you is about the closest digital equivalent to a 35mm film camera, which is where you said you started. Switch it to RAW mode and you've got lots of latitude for adjustment, but the camera expects you to do some thinking of your own. Learn to do this and use exposure compensation, then come back and talk about your results.
 
HighTechRedNeck,

Upon looking at the sample images of your granddaughter (cute child by the way), I would have to be brutally honest and say that being the original image is terribly underexposed and the 'new and improved pp'ed image' is horribly overexposed, your photographic and post-processing skills leaves much to be desired, be it from a Nikon or Canon camera.

You have just proved with this post that cameras are mere tools and that the skilled photographer is ultimately what makes an image great. Yes, there is no denying that the 5D handles poor lighting better than the D200 and ultimately offers less noise (Canon had the better sensors in the pre-D3/D300 era ;) [friendly ribbing here, folks].

But the samples you have shown makes me seriously question your approach and knowledge of photography in general.

I'm sorry if I sound a tad brutal in all of this (I really don't mean to sound disrespectful), but no wonder you were having problems with your D200 and metering... seems like you have the same problem with your 5D!

And about your D200 not being able to focus the side of a barn... perhaps your D200 was defective? Mine can surely focus without issues.

My suggestion would be to have a hard look at your photographic skills in general and try to improve on that as opposed to seeking out the magical camera that will correct poor shooting.

Again, sorry about the rant.. just being honest.

Cheers,

NRG
--
F/8 and be there.
http://www.pbase.com/nrg_alpha/
 
if you had the chance to test the ISO changing procedure on a 1DsII (and 1Ds) you'd be screaming even louder

:)
 
If you think the pp'd version has any merit whatsoever as a photograph then I'd advise you to read some books, take a class, go to some exhibits and try learn what a what a good photograph should look like. Concentrating on direction of light and range of tones would be a place to start. Good luck to you.
--
JohnK
I like to see what things look like photographed in infrared
 
nt
JohnK
I like to see what things look like photographed in infrared
 
While I agree with some of the comments you have made about the comparison, I find both images posted to be an indication that your ideas about what is good, and your operation of the camera make me suspect your credibility.

The badly exposed original is just bad exposure, and should have been "predicted" and the camera made to expose much closer to ideal; and the PP'd good version is just not the kind of image I like. It makes me think your interpretation of things is likely much different than mine.

--
Nothing is enough for the man to whom nothing is enough.
 
I agree with many of your points. I have come through a similar process to yours.

Personally, I prefer the control layout of the Nikons to that of the Canon. I have had the S2 (still have it) & the D200 (sold).

The 5D body feels solid but does not inspire much real confidence to me either, but the IQ of the files blows away anything I ever got from my D200. In RAW, there is a ton of potential in these files. They may not be as punchy as the D200 in the studio but its an easy thing to add more saturation or pop. You can't take that away from a file though. (I have abandoned jpeg shooting for all but the most banal of jobs as one has much more latitude & creative potential in RAW.)

The Canon lenses I have, have proven to be generally much better than my Nikon equivalent glass - less CA & sharper.

Anyways, I often find that I spend too much time reading posts on this forum & not enough time getting out to shoot. When I do get out to shoot though, I am still quite amazed at the quality of what this humble P&S body can give me.

Good luck in adapting to the foibles of your new camera. It will eventually become an extension of your brain...it just takes a while.

-evan

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5D, ex-D200, S2

I do know how to spell. I'm just a lousy Tipyst!

http://www.pbase.com/eheffa

 
I have not taken a single jpeg since 2003 and instead of spending time in Photoshop, I "develop" my pictures in C1.
--
Michael

'People are crazy and times are strange, I'm locked in tight, I'm out of range, I used to care, but things have changed' - Bob Dylan
 
In the studio, I use 100/125/160 for minor adjustments, instead of changing the aperture. (The shutter speed stays put!)

I'm change the ISO all the time, with one finger hitting the two buttons and the "shutter finger" running the wheel.
It ain't no problem. I have smallish hands, too.
Practice, practice, practice.
KP
--



http://www.ahomls.com/photo.htm
http://www.phillipsphotographer.com
Voted Best of the City 2004 by Cincinnati Magazine
I don't believe in fate, but I do believe in f/8!

'No study to date has positively attributed all or part [of the climate change observed to date] to anthropogenic [man-made] causes.' - Deleted passage from peer-approved version of the IPCC Climate Change Report.
 
I went from an S2 to a 5D and ergonomically the 5D is just miles ahead. The S2 produces lovely images (RAW) but the body is just a cheap amateur job.

It's mainly a question of what you get used to and owners of each brand will say theirs is better mainly because they are just used to it.

That said, the 5D is very easy to use - I don't really understand the problem.
 
A lot of what you are saying is just dung. You expect some kind of particular result by just pressing the shutter button on a digital camera? Did you ever make film choices to achieve a particular effect? Have you heard of Picture Styles or the recent Picture Style Editor?

The 5D is a glorified point & shoot? My friend, I think that you better stick to film. You impress me that you don't have the right attitude to learn to shoot digitial. Basically you are saying that digital cameras just aren't good enough for you, that they don't do what you want to do right out of the box.

There are good photographers shooting fine looking JPGs with Canon SLRs. You are probably not going to be among them.
 
Hi HighTechRedNeck,
where did you get that video? I know that Jessica uset to work with Becker

(www.thebecker.com) and i really like their style. Can you, please, post the link to that video?
Thanks!
 

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